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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806234 times)
Odalv
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November 05, 2014, 09:57:06 PM
 #15861


Now divide 21M BTC into  1,000,000 SCs. And this SCs will timestamping thier blocks on MC.


that's sounds terrible.

congratulations, you've just succeeded in breaking the first, and probably the last chance we'll ever have at Sound Money, into 1,000,000 Berkshare Buck locations.

Or what do you mean ?
Again

1. There will be few MERGE-MINED SC
2. There maybe tens PUBLIC SC ( you maybe can buy scBTC for FIAT  but I doubt somebody will sell you )
3. There will be millions PRIVATE SC ( you cannot buy scBTC b/c you do not know they even exists)

Edit:
There will be thousands LOCAL SC over globe -> you will be not interested in more than few (there where you live)
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brg444
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November 05, 2014, 09:57:13 PM
 #15862

Once you understand that sidechains are just that "sub-coins to Bitcoins 21M controlled supply", then it is natural to see sidechains as part of the original Sound Money plan. They simply offer a mechanism to increase functionality without a hard fork. Period

But these guys think that sidechains are somehow reinventing the altcoin threat  Cheesy

They don't care or wanna hear about the innovation of 1:1 two-way peg, they are busy fighting the inexistant altcoin threat

Exactly... The only feature a sidechain can add to the existing altcoin concept is decentralized exchange.  If this is the only thing holding back the flood of investments into altcoins, than all of us primarily holding Bitcoin are fucked, because sidechains or not, it is coming.

Precisely.

To consider sidechains and think only of sidecoins booted on top of it is so ass-backward and stupid I don't know where to begin.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Adrian-x
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November 05, 2014, 09:57:44 PM
 #15863


I have a count of 3 Bitcoin proponents who see what you see, - sad reflection on comprehension skill. If Blockstreem gets to implement the protocol change to allow the extraction of value from the blockchain, we may get another chance at sound money in another 100 years, who knows, it could be longer as the sad truth is the majority cant see how this proposal destroys the one hope we have at sound money.   

The sad thing is those crazy evaluations people where projecting wont materialist, they'll be eaten by inflation in the SC that your tormenters are so eager to see happen.

There is still a chance they wake up. 
 

Actually I only see 3 sidechains opponents who clearly do not understand the value proposition of sidechains and insist on sticking ignorant characteristics like "inflation" or "extraction of value" to it when sidechains enable NONE of that.

Maybe you never bothered considering altcoins enough to realise that they are actually the enemy you are fighting. Now that you see them under the light of sidechains next to words like merged mining and 2wp you delusion yourself into thinking they have changed and are more dangerous when in fact they are the same as they ever were.

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 10:00:58 PM
 #15864


WTF in 30 years the block reward will be 0.10 BTC per block. it costs a minimum of $3300 to make one today.
do you know what the price of bitcoin will be? - I dont, but given the existing reward structure I know it will be as impervious to a 51% stack as it is today, change the prototypical intensive and I'm not so sure.  

If there are no SC and Bitcoin needed to support the same security it has today the price of a a single bitcoin would have to sell for over $30,000 just to maintain the hashing power we have today - that assuming no growth, if there is big growth, and we talking trillions in market cap, a block reward will have to be higher, can you guarantee there will be enough hashing power to protect Bitcoin if miners get most of there revenue from another chain?  

If you don't believe that in 30 years either Bitcoin is dead or the price by coin is WELL over $30,000 then there is no use arguing with you

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 10:01:39 PM
 #15865

Once you understand that sidechains are just that "sub-coins to Bitcoins 21M controlled supply", then it is natural to see sidechains as part of the original Sound Money plan. They simply offer a mechanism to increase functionality without a hard fork. Period

But these guys think that sidechains are somehow reinventing the altcoin threat  Cheesy

They don't care or wanna hear about the innovation of 1:1 two-way peg, they are busy fighting the inexistant altcoin threat

Exactly... The only feature a sidechain can add to the existing altcoin concept is decentralized exchange.  If this is the only thing holding back the flood of investments into altcoins, than all of us primarily holding Bitcoin are fucked, because sidechains or not, it is coming.

Precisely.

To consider sidechains and think only of sidecoins booted on top of it is so ass-backward and stupid I don't know where to begin.


Wow, you seem so certain of this.  Can we see the research on this? Both technical and economic?   Because if you're wrong, we're all going to lose a  lot of money. 

But it sounds like you'd like us all to just trust your judgment. 
notme
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November 05, 2014, 10:03:02 PM
 #15866


I have a count of 3 Bitcoin proponents who see what you see, - sad reflection on comprehension skill. If Blockstreem gets to implement the protocol change to allow the extraction of value from the blockchain, we may get another chance at sound money in another 100 years, who knows, it could be longer as the sad truth is the majority cant see how this proposal destroys the one hope we have at sound money.   

The sad thing is those crazy evaluations people where projecting wont materialist, they'll be eaten by inflation in the SC that your tormenters are so eager to see happen.

There is still a chance they wake up. 
 

Actually I only see 3 sidechains opponents who clearly do not understand the value proposition of sidechains and insist on sticking ignorant characteristics like "inflation" or "extraction of value" to it when sidechains enable NONE of that.

Maybe you never bothered considering altcoins enough to realise that they are actually the enemy you are fighting. Now that you see them under the light of sidechains next to words like merged mining and 2wp you delusion yourself into thinking they have changed and are more dangerous when in fact they are the same as they ever were.

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Bitcoin the currency will never leave Bitcoin the Blockchain, even with sidechains.  Sidechains just gives you more potential uses for your Bitcoins.... locking them gains you tokens that have added functionality.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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notme
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November 05, 2014, 10:04:03 PM
 #15867

Once you understand that sidechains are just that "sub-coins to Bitcoins 21M controlled supply", then it is natural to see sidechains as part of the original Sound Money plan. They simply offer a mechanism to increase functionality without a hard fork. Period

But these guys think that sidechains are somehow reinventing the altcoin threat  Cheesy

They don't care or wanna hear about the innovation of 1:1 two-way peg, they are busy fighting the inexistant altcoin threat

Exactly... The only feature a sidechain can add to the existing altcoin concept is decentralized exchange.  If this is the only thing holding back the flood of investments into altcoins, than all of us primarily holding Bitcoin are fucked, because sidechains or not, it is coming.

Precisely.

To consider sidechains and think only of sidecoins booted on top of it is so ass-backward and stupid I don't know where to begin.


Wow, you seem so certain of this.  Can we see the research on this? Both technical and economic?   Because if you're wrong, we're all going to lose a  lot of money. 

But it sounds like you'd like us all to just trust your judgment. 

No, I'd prefer if you would read up on the technologies involved and come to the same conclusion yourself, but you'd rather engage with trolls and spread misinformation and hyperbolic hypotheticals.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 10:04:46 PM
 #15868

I can smell a rat a mile away.

Anyone arguing this hard had to have some interest in SC's.

You all know mine and my prior posting frequency.
Adrian-x
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November 05, 2014, 10:05:05 PM
 #15869

Once you understand that sidechains are just that "sub-coins to Bitcoins 21M controlled supply", then it is natural to see sidechains as part of the original Sound Money plan. They simply offer a mechanism to increase functionality without a hard fork. Period

But these guys think that sidechains are somehow reinventing the altcoin threat  Cheesy

They don't care or wanna hear about the innovation of 1:1 two-way peg, they are busy fighting the inexistant altcoin threat
then stop promoting a prototypical change that enables MM SC. we can be done.  
keep the top to to bitcoin and gold. we need Altcoins they not a treat. take that idea elsewhere.  

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cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 10:07:51 PM
 #15870


I have a count of 3 Bitcoin proponents who see what you see, - sad reflection on comprehension skill. If Blockstreem gets to implement the protocol change to allow the extraction of value from the blockchain, we may get another chance at sound money in another 100 years, who knows, it could be longer as the sad truth is the majority cant see how this proposal destroys the one hope we have at sound money.   

The sad thing is those crazy evaluations people where projecting wont materialist, they'll be eaten by inflation in the SC that your tormenters are so eager to see happen.

There is still a chance they wake up. 
 

Actually I only see 3 sidechains opponents who clearly do not understand the value proposition of sidechains and insist on sticking ignorant characteristics like "inflation" or "extraction of value" to it when sidechains enable NONE of that.

Maybe you never bothered considering altcoins enough to realise that they are actually the enemy you are fighting. Now that you see them under the light of sidechains next to words like merged mining and 2wp you delusion yourself into thinking they have changed and are more dangerous when in fact they are the same as they ever were.

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Bitcoin the currency will never leave Bitcoin the Blockchain, even with sidechains.  Sidechains just gives you more potential uses for your Bitcoins.... locking them gains you tokens that have added functionality.

I haven't heard a compelling case why we need those other functionalities. What's wrong with Bitcoin as it i? 
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 10:08:48 PM
 #15871

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Separate as in one existing without the other?

Of course not.

But this is not the same as saying BTC can't move around and be used on other sidechains.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
notme
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November 05, 2014, 10:10:09 PM
 #15872


I have a count of 3 Bitcoin proponents who see what you see, - sad reflection on comprehension skill. If Blockstreem gets to implement the protocol change to allow the extraction of value from the blockchain, we may get another chance at sound money in another 100 years, who knows, it could be longer as the sad truth is the majority cant see how this proposal destroys the one hope we have at sound money.   

The sad thing is those crazy evaluations people where projecting wont materialist, they'll be eaten by inflation in the SC that your tormenters are so eager to see happen.

There is still a chance they wake up. 
 

Actually I only see 3 sidechains opponents who clearly do not understand the value proposition of sidechains and insist on sticking ignorant characteristics like "inflation" or "extraction of value" to it when sidechains enable NONE of that.

Maybe you never bothered considering altcoins enough to realise that they are actually the enemy you are fighting. Now that you see them under the light of sidechains next to words like merged mining and 2wp you delusion yourself into thinking they have changed and are more dangerous when in fact they are the same as they ever were.

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Bitcoin the currency will never leave Bitcoin the Blockchain, even with sidechains.  Sidechains just gives you more potential uses for your Bitcoins.... locking them gains you tokens that have added functionality.

I haven't heard a compelling case why we need those other functionalities. What's wrong with Bitcoin as it i? 

How about 7tps?

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 10:10:29 PM
 #15873

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Separate as in one existing without the other?

Of course not.

But this is not the same as saying BTC can't move around and be used on other sidechains.

Yes it is. Those SC's are fundamentally different with different properties and security. 
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 10:11:56 PM
 #15874


I have a count of 3 Bitcoin proponents who see what you see, - sad reflection on comprehension skill. If Blockstreem gets to implement the protocol change to allow the extraction of value from the blockchain, we may get another chance at sound money in another 100 years, who knows, it could be longer as the sad truth is the majority cant see how this proposal destroys the one hope we have at sound money.   

The sad thing is those crazy evaluations people where projecting wont materialist, they'll be eaten by inflation in the SC that your tormenters are so eager to see happen.

There is still a chance they wake up. 
 

Actually I only see 3 sidechains opponents who clearly do not understand the value proposition of sidechains and insist on sticking ignorant characteristics like "inflation" or "extraction of value" to it when sidechains enable NONE of that.

Maybe you never bothered considering altcoins enough to realise that they are actually the enemy you are fighting. Now that you see them under the light of sidechains next to words like merged mining and 2wp you delusion yourself into thinking they have changed and are more dangerous when in fact they are the same as they ever were.

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Bitcoin the currency will never leave Bitcoin the Blockchain, even with sidechains.  Sidechains just gives you more potential uses for your Bitcoins.... locking them gains you tokens that have added functionality.

I haven't heard a compelling case why we need those other functionalities. What's wrong with Bitcoin as it i? 

How about 7tps?

Maybe, maybe not.  No one knows but it certainly isn't a problem now. And if it becomes one, why not innovate on Mc ?
notme
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November 05, 2014, 10:13:10 PM
 #15875


I have a count of 3 Bitcoin proponents who see what you see, - sad reflection on comprehension skill. If Blockstreem gets to implement the protocol change to allow the extraction of value from the blockchain, we may get another chance at sound money in another 100 years, who knows, it could be longer as the sad truth is the majority cant see how this proposal destroys the one hope we have at sound money.   

The sad thing is those crazy evaluations people where projecting wont materialist, they'll be eaten by inflation in the SC that your tormenters are so eager to see happen.

There is still a chance they wake up. 
 

Actually I only see 3 sidechains opponents who clearly do not understand the value proposition of sidechains and insist on sticking ignorant characteristics like "inflation" or "extraction of value" to it when sidechains enable NONE of that.

Maybe you never bothered considering altcoins enough to realise that they are actually the enemy you are fighting. Now that you see them under the light of sidechains next to words like merged mining and 2wp you delusion yourself into thinking they have changed and are more dangerous when in fact they are the same as they ever were.

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Bitcoin the currency will never leave Bitcoin the Blockchain, even with sidechains.  Sidechains just gives you more potential uses for your Bitcoins.... locking them gains you tokens that have added functionality.

I haven't heard a compelling case why we need those other functionalities. What's wrong with Bitcoin as it i? 

How about 7tps?

Maybe, maybe not.  No one knows but it certainly isn't a problem now. And if it becomes one, why not innovate on Mc ?

So you'd rather risk it all than allow development to happen on a segregated portion of the network?

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 10:14:26 PM
 #15876


I have a count of 3 Bitcoin proponents who see what you see, - sad reflection on comprehension skill. If Blockstreem gets to implement the protocol change to allow the extraction of value from the blockchain, we may get another chance at sound money in another 100 years, who knows, it could be longer as the sad truth is the majority cant see how this proposal destroys the one hope we have at sound money.   

The sad thing is those crazy evaluations people where projecting wont materialist, they'll be eaten by inflation in the SC that your tormenters are so eager to see happen.

There is still a chance they wake up. 
 

Actually I only see 3 sidechains opponents who clearly do not understand the value proposition of sidechains and insist on sticking ignorant characteristics like "inflation" or "extraction of value" to it when sidechains enable NONE of that.

Maybe you never bothered considering altcoins enough to realise that they are actually the enemy you are fighting. Now that you see them under the light of sidechains next to words like merged mining and 2wp you delusion yourself into thinking they have changed and are more dangerous when in fact they are the same as they ever were.

In your opinion is BTC the currency separate from Bitcoin the Blockchain?

if not, do you want it to be?

Bitcoin the currency will never leave Bitcoin the Blockchain, even with sidechains.  Sidechains just gives you more potential uses for your Bitcoins.... locking them gains you tokens that have added functionality.

I haven't heard a compelling case why we need those other functionalities. What's wrong with Bitcoin as it i? 

How about 7tps?

Maybe, maybe not.  No one knows but it certainly isn't a problem now. And if it becomes one, why not innovate on Mc ?

So you'd rather risk it all than allow development to happen on a segregated portion of the network?

Given the impressive recovery after 0.8.1, yes.
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November 05, 2014, 10:17:15 PM
 #15877

Once you understand that sidechains are just that "sub-coins to Bitcoins 21M controlled supply", then it is natural to see sidechains as part of the original Sound Money plan. They simply offer a mechanism to increase functionality without a hard fork. Period

But these guys think that sidechains are somehow reinventing the altcoin threat  Cheesy

They don't care or wanna hear about the innovation of 1:1 two-way peg, they are busy fighting the inexistant altcoin threat

Exactly... The only feature a sidechain can add to the existing altcoin concept is decentralized exchange.  If this is the only thing holding back the flood of investments into altcoins, than all of us primarily holding Bitcoin are fucked, because sidechains or not, it is coming.

no that's wrong that's what you think you are getting, read appendix A of federated pegs.

The SC protocol changes the incentive structure that gives Bitcoin its value. Miners will over time have to MM Bitcoin not for profit but for some other reason.

Decentralized Exchange can be done using existing technologies not need to introduce a change to the prototypical that introduces disincentives for miners to mine Bitcoin.  

if there is was any chance that what i say was true student it be worth trying to understand why that is?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 10:19:02 PM
 #15878

Wow, you seem so certain of this.  Can we see the research on this? Both technical and economic?   Because if you're wrong, we're all going to lose a  lot of money. 

But it sounds like you'd like us all to just trust your judgment. 

Yes.

I am certain that you don't understand sidechain.

I don't need to present a research. Slowly but surely people in this thread are realizing it also. You just need to humble yourself, take a step back and gather your thoughts to come to the same realizaton

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Odalv
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November 05, 2014, 10:21:06 PM
 #15879

Given the impressive recovery after 0.8.1, yes.

So core devs, have to wait for decade until shit happens and then fix it in 10 mins ?

Edit:
Not only core devs. Every developer trying touse bitcoin.
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November 05, 2014, 10:21:45 PM
 #15880


keep the top to to bitcoin and gold. we need Altcoins they not a treat. take that idea elsewhere.  

 Cheesy

you can't make this stuff up.

someone who champion the preservation of Bitcoin's hard money unique ledger and is worried about inflation but says "we need altcoins"

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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