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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1978051 times)
Odalv
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November 05, 2014, 12:26:51 AM
 #15661

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

> "Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin."
How can you prove this ?

 - SC is not new. We have a lot of SC. (Exchanges, WebWallets, payment processors, OT, ...)
 - Blockstream whitepaper only gave them names  2wp, SPV proof, blockchain concept ... and brings new ideas how to use them.


it's not the same.  you are separating the currency units from its original secure blockchain.  

Bitstamp, Houbi, OkCoin, BTC-E exist. Those are 2-way-peg SCs. They use CENTRAL entity controlled 2wp.
If some exchange switch into Federated peg or will use oracles then we will have safer exchanges.

I'm not separating nothing. Traders send bitcoin to exchange (to sidechain controled by central entity).


Quote
yes, an exchange keeps its own internal order book and tracks trades but the actual aggregate BTC still sit securely on the exchanges private keys.

when an exchange gets hacked its those private keys that get stolen, not the order book.

Using different 2wp hacking can be harder  b/c BTC are not stored in exchange wallet (bitcoin can be locked in MC)
This does not require any change to bitcoin protocol.
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November 05, 2014, 12:54:01 AM
 #15662

Hypothetical: I have invented a two-way peg that requires no changes to the existing Bitcoin protocol. I.e. SC are now possible without any new code being run by the network.

What are you going to do about? Send in a PR to change the protocol to block hypothetical economic "attacks"?

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November 05, 2014, 12:57:39 AM
 #15663

Hypothetical: I have invented a two-way peg that requires no changes to the existing Bitcoin protocol. I.e. SC are now possible without any new code being run by the network.

What are you going to do about? Send in a PR to change the protocol to block hypothetical economic "attacks"?
It is not "Hypothetical" it is reality .
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November 05, 2014, 01:40:35 AM
 #15664

Hypothetical: I have invented a two-way peg that requires no changes to the existing Bitcoin protocol. I.e. SC are now possible without any new code being run by the network.

What are you going to do about? Send in a PR to change the protocol to block hypothetical economic "attacks"?
It is not "Hypothetical" it is reality .

shhh, you are spoiling it.

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November 05, 2014, 02:07:21 AM
 #15665

oil?  who the hell needs oil?


Jesus thats scary. it reminds me of other graph unfortunately..

                ,▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
          ,▄▓▓▓▓▓█▀▀▀▀▀▀█▓▓▓▓▓▄,
       ,▄▓▓▓▀▀              `▀▓▓▓▓▄
     ▄▓▓▓▀       ,▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄,     ▀▓▓▓▄
   ,▓▓▓▀      ▄▓▓▓▓▓█▀██▓▓▓▓▄     ^▓▓▓▄
  ▄▓▓▀       ▓▓▓▓▀       `▓▓▓▌      ╙▓▓▌
 ▐▓▓`       j▓▓▓▌                     ▓▓▌
 ▓▓▀         ▓▓▓▓             ▄▄▄     "▓▓▄
▓▓▓          ╙▓▓▓▓▓▄  ,▄▄▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▀      ▓▓▓
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  ▀▓▓▄      ▓▓▓▓         ,▓▓▓▓      ╓▓▓▀
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     ▀▓▓▓▄     ^▀▀▀▀▀█▀▀▀▀¬     ▄▓▓▓▀
       `▀▓▓▓▄,              ,▄▓▓▓▓▀
          ╙▀█▓▓▓▓▓▓▄▄▄▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀
               '▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀~
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November 05, 2014, 02:25:08 AM
 #15666

Hypothetical: I have invented a two-way peg that requires no changes to the existing Bitcoin protocol. I.e. SC are now possible without any new code being run by the network.

What are you going to do about? Send in a PR to change the protocol to block hypothetical economic "attacks"?

I wouldn't put it past some of these guys.

In trying to imagine a way to solve some of the moving stake issues I dreampt up and idea which would provide sidechains without sidechains by shuffling secret keys.  Sort of like stealth addresses in spirit but amplified exponentially.  In essence it would be a big till with all kinds of different fractional chunks of BTC shuffling around to those who need 'change'.  Such a thing could potentially really fuck up the day of those trying to track value flows in part because there is no correlation between the sender and receiver other then they happen to be members of the same system.

Obviously the secret keys would be locked in various ways and if the lock is broken the backing vanishes (back into pure Bitcoinland.)


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November 05, 2014, 02:32:43 AM
 #15667

scenario:  SC + sidecoin + innovation + MM + scBTC

is it possible for scBTC to take advantage of the innovation or is that impossible b/c the SC MM is specific to sidecoin?

I do not understand how creating more units (sidecoin) can be advantage.
I think SC + innovation + scBTC is better chain.  And if it is better than MC then innovation will be implemented into MC.

Except that we know from experience that this is not true.  MC ossifies or has unbreakable social contracts, so better doesn't get implemented into MC.

Instead what SC offers is that MC may 95% migrate to it and leave behind those that don't agree that the change is better.

Except that for the SC to become the mainchain it requires the same consensus that a hard fork to the original BTC mainchain would so "ossification" is not an eligible argument IMO


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 03:08:46 AM
 #15668

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

> "Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin."
How can you prove this ?

 - SC is not new. We have a lot of SC. (Exchanges, WebWallets, payment processors, OT, ...)
 - Blockstream whitepaper only gave them names  2wp, SPV proof, blockchain concept ... and brings new ideas how to use them.


I think the risk is proven in theory, you may not have understood it, but that doesn't negate it.

The ideas aren't new either, the only new tech Blockstream have introduced is a proposal for a protocol change that will allow BTC the asset to be separated from the value stored on the blockchain.

If you feel comfortable with the existing solutions why introduce new risks?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 05, 2014, 03:12:57 AM
 #15669

Hypothetical: I have invented a two-way peg that requires no changes to the existing Bitcoin protocol. I.e. SC are now possible without any new code being run by the network.

What are you going to do about? Send in a PR to change the protocol to block hypothetical economic "attacks"?
It is not "Hypothetical" it is reality .
No one is contesting this, this is innovation.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 05, 2014, 03:23:35 AM
 #15670

scenario:  SC + sidecoin + innovation + MM + scBTC

is it possible for scBTC to take advantage of the innovation or is that impossible b/c the SC MM is specific to sidecoin?

I do not understand how creating more units (sidecoin) can be advantage.
I think SC + innovation + scBTC is better chain.  And if it is better than MC then innovation will be implemented into MC.

Except that we know from experience that this is not true.  MC ossifies or has unbreakable social contracts, so better doesn't get implemented into MC.

Instead what SC offers is that MC may 95% migrate to it and leave behind those that don't agree that the change is better.

Except that for the SC to become the mainchain it requires the same consensus that a hard fork to the original BTC mainchain would so "ossification" is not an eligible argument IMO



except that the dynamics are different.  the hard fork we had with 0.8.1 was abrupt and caused a 20 block disparity right after it was introduced.

SC's otoh may encourage a slow creep as migration moves to the SC over years time. 

brg444, do you know if scBTC can take advantage of a faster tx time when the SC simultaneously creates a sidecoin?
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November 05, 2014, 03:33:09 AM
 #15671

except that the dynamics are different.  the hard fork we had with 0.8.1 was abrupt and caused a 20 block disparity right after it was introduced.

SC's otoh may encourage a slow creep as migration moves to the SC over years time. 

brg444, do you know if scBTC can take advantage of a faster tx time when the SC simultaneously creates a sidecoin?

Possible I guess, but as stated yesterday I don't see the use case or why someone would want to put their coins on such a chain

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 03:41:48 AM
 #15672

except that the dynamics are different.  the hard fork we had with 0.8.1 was abrupt and caused a 20 block disparity right after it was introduced.

SC's otoh may encourage a slow creep as migration moves to the SC over years time. 

brg444, do you know if scBTC can take advantage of a faster tx time when the SC simultaneously creates a sidecoin?

Possible I guess, but as stated yesterday I don't see the use case or why someone would want to put their coins on such a chain

if the scBTC can take advantage of faster tx times, why not? 

miners would like it too as they'd get all those sources of income, tx fees from scBTC and sidecoin, as well as block rewards of sidecoin. 
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November 05, 2014, 03:52:57 AM
 #15673

if the scBTC can take advantage of faster tx times, why not? 

miners would like it too as they'd get all those sources of income, tx fees from scBTC and sidecoin, as well as block rewards of sidecoin. 

Because users have no interest for a sidechain with an additional sidecoin. Users will go for the more safe, most risk-averse chain which is the scBTC 1:1 peg model

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 04:00:22 AM
 #15674

if the scBTC can take advantage of faster tx times, why not? 

miners would like it too as they'd get all those sources of income, tx fees from scBTC and sidecoin, as well as block rewards of sidecoin. 

Because users have no interest for a sidechain with an additional sidecoin. Users will go for the more safe, most risk-averse chain which is the scBTC 1:1 peg model

but the SC would be MM.  just like Namecoin is today with 70% of the Bitcoin hashrate.
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November 05, 2014, 04:12:15 AM
 #15675

if the scBTC can take advantage of faster tx times, why not?  

miners would like it too as they'd get all those sources of income, tx fees from scBTC and sidecoin, as well as block rewards of sidecoin.  

Because users have no interest for a sidechain with an additional sidecoin. Users will go for the more safe, most risk-averse chain which is the scBTC 1:1 peg model

but the SC would be MM.  just like Namecoin is today with 70% of the Bitcoin hashrate.

Only largely accepted and used sidechains will be mined because only those will have value. As I've stated many times, miners will not MM speculative coins or other obscure schemes that gain little traction, there's no incentive for them to do so.

A sidechain using both scBTC and issued assets (sidecoins) for whatever reason is simply inferior to the superior scBTC 1:1 chain. To serve monetary functions ex: faster transactions, the appSidechain or as I have called them, utility chain, is simply the more logic choice.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 06:15:28 AM
 #15676

if the scBTC can take advantage of faster tx times, why not?  

miners would like it too as they'd get all those sources of income, tx fees from scBTC and sidecoin, as well as block rewards of sidecoin.  

Because users have no interest for a sidechain with an additional sidecoin. Users will go for the more safe, most risk-averse chain which is the scBTC 1:1 peg model

but the SC would be MM.  just like Namecoin is today with 70% of the Bitcoin hashrate.

Only largely accepted and used sidechains will be mined because only those will have value. As I've stated many times, miners will not MM speculative coins or other obscure schemes that gain little traction, there's no incentive for them to do so.

A sidechain using both scBTC and issued assets (sidecoins) for whatever reason is simply inferior to the superior scBTC 1:1 chain. To serve monetary functions ex: faster transactions, the appSidechain or as I have called them, utility chain, is simply the more logic choice.

Agreed, a sidechain that is inflationary (by creating additional sidecoin issued assets) will not be functional because it breaks the store of value property. For such sidechains, the scBTC value in equivalent BTC will decrease over time making it so no one wants to hold the coin. And if no one holds the scBTC coins, the functionality of the sidechain is greatly reduced.

Let's take a zerocoin sidechain example. Suppose someone created an scZerocoin that enabled completely anonymous transactions and a method to safely mix coins. That is very useful functionality people are interested in. However this scZerocoin sidechain was designed to also mine sideZerocoins, which break the 1:1 transfer and cause scZerocoin assets to decrease in BTC value over time.

The problem is people are now incentivized to minimize the length of time they hold scZercoin's to as short of a time period as possible. i.e. convert BTC to scZerocoin, make anonymous transactions, then convert scZerocoin back into BTC as soon as possible. However this behavior also greatly reduces the zerocoin sidechain's functionality since: 1) there are very few other people to mix with at any given time since no one wants to hold the asset, 2) quickly withdrawing coins quickly reduces anonymity. The only way to correctly use this coin is to hold it for a reasonable period of time, but doing so causes a loss in BTC.

Such a sidechain will always lose to another implementation that guarantees a 1:1 peg by producing no sidecoin issued assets from MM. Here if someone else created scZerocoinV2 with 1:1 pegging, everyone would immediately switch and also potentially hold the scZerocoinV2 coins for lengthy periods of time.


What this means is any SC will need to be supported by transaction fees only, not speculative sidecoins generated. And as a result miners will only be interested in MM widely used SC that generate a reasonable amount of transaction revenue. Yes any SC can be MM, but there are costs on the server side and lightly used SC's with very few transaction fees won't be worth it.


Another important point is the sum total value of the Bitcoin mainchain and ALL sidechains combined will always equal 21M coins maximum. Even if there are billions of SCs created, the sum total value of all them is only the equivalent BTC that have been converted over and are available to convert back. If some SC's are inflationary, that action simply reduces the value of their own sidecoin assets, and the BTC equivalent value remains the same.

I haven't had time to go over the 100+ pages on the topic recently, but a lot of the concern seems to be that billions of SC's will be inflationary to the Bitcoin ecosystem and reduce the store of value aspect. I simply don't buy this because their cumulative BTC equivalent value will always remain the same and within the 21M cap.
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November 05, 2014, 09:43:27 AM
 #15677

Not looking good...


1keewee2vRp63UWvPBynT55ZYw6SUCKDB
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November 05, 2014, 09:51:50 AM
 #15678

We can't have democracy without choice.  I have one legit chain to point my hardware at.  I would love to continue to mine Bitcoin, but also be given the choice to support other chains at the same time if they can work synergistically with Bitcoin.  There is a higher bar for sidechains because it is so very obvious that it is a waste of time if it doesn't gain at least a solid niche use.  As a miner, I would want to thoroughly vet a sidechain before I would give up known Bitcoin rewards for transaction-fee only sidechain blocks.  If merge mining were used, we would be pushing the 1 MB limit before long as every chain would want their block hashes on the bitcoin blockchain, so I'm not terribly keen to support that route unless perhaps after a sidechain has proven itself by mining fee-only for some time.

What about this SC.
1. Server(or miners on SC) will collect transactions in SC.
2. When server collect enough fees then server will mine block  and use this fees for timestamping hash of block on MC
3. I think my SC will have same security level as MC -> hidden MM
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November 05, 2014, 10:39:33 AM
 #15679

Not looking good...



Buyers of physical will - in the end - determine the price.

                                 
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naplam
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Coin Developer - CrunchPool.com operator


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November 05, 2014, 10:43:24 AM
 #15680

Not looking good...



Buyers of physical will - in the end - determine the price.
Good luck getting to "the end". ermember "markets can stay irrational longer than you can remain solvent"

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