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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1905406 times)
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 06:45:17 PM
 #15661

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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November 04, 2014, 06:50:39 PM
 #15662

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
While I recognise the possibility of a SC taking away all the miners, the miners would no longer be able to verify their chains based on Bitcoin. They could attack each other. Catch-22.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 04, 2014, 06:51:19 PM
 #15663

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

And we'd leave behind those that can't or won't.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 07:01:54 PM
 #15664

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
While I recognise the possibility of a SC taking away all the miners, the miners would no longer be able to verify their chains based on Bitcoin. They could attack each other. Catch-22.

this is yet another possible problem i mentioned pages back; the fragmentation of mining that could lead to widespread vulnerabilities.  brg444 will say this won't happen but who knows?
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November 04, 2014, 07:02:45 PM
 #15665

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

So Bitcoin system stability is predicated on cold wallets which are not touched???

(Actually, I would not rule it out.  In some ways they are indeed acting as a deflationary force in what is currently a massively inflationary system.  That's a little pathetic.)

edit: security --> system stability

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November 04, 2014, 07:06:03 PM
 #15666

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

So Bitcoin system stability is predicated on cold wallets which are not touched???

(Actually, I would not rule it out.  In some ways they are indeed acting as a deflationary force in what is currently a massively inflationary system.  That's a little pathetic.)

pathetic being your opinion.  Daniel K wouldn't agree with you and neither do i.
Quote

edit: security --> system stability


agreed.  and we have that right now given all mining is concentrated on MC currently.
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 07:08:25 PM
 #15667

oil?  who the hell needs oil?

Adrian-x
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November 04, 2014, 07:08:29 PM
 #15668

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

in weighting the differences,
your first point:
there is only one application of SC that I understand as a threat to Bitcoin and that is an incentivised  p2p decentralised competing means of exchange.

The opportunities offered by SC are not limited to SC, there are other solutions that offer the same opportunities just less the decentralized competing means of exchange.

NL I also get confused by your use of value are you talking about price

I wear 2 hats,

hat 1) I am a looking out for my best interest in this context Value = I can exchange for more wealth. (this definition is related to price - bitcoins value fluctuates day to day) this is what I understand when I read it in the context you used it. ( the same motives that drive out financial system today)  
hat 2) I am a member of a global community, in this context Value =  the existence of a voluntarily adopted and self organizing incentive structure that creates a universal ledger of record used in exchanges of value.  

when the two values are alined it means value for me, but when you talk about SC being a "side" "Chain", the global community ledger of value is degraded and my projections altered.


How Bitcoins incentives are arranged is the key principals of what makes Bitcoin valuable, not the price. I've been building the Global egalitarian ledger by contributing wealth as its principals have value in the border definition of global success.  

i find it hard to see the value when enabling a decentralized competing means of exchange that alters the incentives that makes Bitcoin valuable - is it fair to call this creating value - it looks like the value is hat 1)  type value, and that's not good for Bitcoin, if it compromises hat 2) type value.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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November 04, 2014, 07:14:19 PM
 #15669

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
While I recognise the possibility of a SC taking away all the miners, the miners would no longer be able to verify their chains based on Bitcoin. They could attack each other. Catch-22.

we'll see a to party system develop,  Cheesy it'll be called the 2 pool party system, the libertarians will still be on the side.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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November 04, 2014, 07:19:32 PM
 #15670

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

And we'd leave behind those that can't or won't.

that will be so sad if this happens before bitcoin grows up. - all those Bitcoin wont survive pundits will have more political clout. and i wont hit my target exchange steps.

cypher there is a little risk in opening cold storage, but doesn't the risk increase the more valuable Bitcoin become?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 07:31:19 PM
 #15671

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

And we'd leave behind those that can't or won't.

that will be so sad if this happens before bitcoin grows up. - all those Bitcoin wont survive pundits will have more political clout. and i wont hit my target exchange steps.

cypher there is a little risk in opening cold storage, but docent the risk increase the more valuable they become?


if we make a mistake here it cost us a hundred years until ppl get another chance.

i'm talking theoretical risks.  if you're on the tail end of a migration to a SC, supposedly the SPV proof will be reliable i would hope.  just the act of digging them out for some ppl is inconvenient and may be a risk to security and identity.  just saying.
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November 04, 2014, 07:47:56 PM
 #15672

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11206596/Dollar-smashes-through-resistance-as-mega-rally-gathers-pace.html

Quote
Dollar smashes through resistance as mega-rally gathers pace
HSBC says we are at the early stages of a dollar bull run that will change the world

You heard it here first, but nice of AEP to confirm.   Cool

(New & Improved!  Hat tip to da2ce7.)

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony.  Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process....

c'mon man.  i've been calling for a USD rally and putting up this chart even before summer when i put up this interview of AEP by McAlvaney.  can't find the post buried in this thread somewhere:

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/tag/ambrose-evans-pritchard/

NewLiberty
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November 04, 2014, 08:09:19 PM
 #15673

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

in weighting the differences,
your first point:
there is only one application of SC that I understand as a threat to Bitcoin and that is an incentivised  p2p decentralised competing means of exchange.

The opportunities offered by SC are not limited to SC, there are other solutions that offer the same opportunities just less the decentralized competing means of exchange.

NL I also get confused by your use of value are you talking about price
yes, but not only this.
I wear 2 hats,

hat 1) I am a looking out for my best interest in this context Value = I can exchange for more wealth. (this definition is related to price - bitcoins value fluctuates day to day) this is what I understand when I read it in the context you used it. ( the same motives that drive out financial system today)  
hat 2) I am a member of a global community, in this context Value =  the existence of a voluntarily adopted and self organizing incentive structure that creates a universal ledger of record used in exchanges of value.  

when the two values are alined it means value for me, but when you talk about SC being a "side" "Chain", the global community ledger of value is degraded and my projections altered.


How Bitcoins incentives are arranged is the key principals of what makes Bitcoin valuable, not the price. I've been building the Global egalitarian ledger by contributing wealth as its principals have value in the border definition of global success.  

i find it hard to see the value when enabling a decentralized competing means of exchange that alters the incentives that makes Bitcoin valuable - is it fair to call this creating value - it looks like the value is hat 1)  type value, and that's not good for Bitcoin, if it compromises hat 2) type value.
I used the word "value" intentionally, rather than the word "price" to be meaning both 1) and 2) inclusively.
Price, Utility, Efficacy...  "virtue"

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 04, 2014, 08:19:39 PM
 #15674


cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

So Bitcoin system stability is predicated on cold wallets which are not touched???

(Actually, I would not rule it out.  In some ways they are indeed acting as a deflationary force in what is currently a massively inflationary system.  That's a little pathetic.)

pathetic being your opinion.  Daniel K wouldn't agree with you and neither do i.


I'll buy it, but it completely smokes out all those who try to achieve their objectives by arguing that Bitcoin is some sort of a wholesome exchange network with free individuals doing daily life business.

Once that nonsense is out of the way we can get down to business and focus on the real issues.  High on my list would be how to achieve the objective of providing a place for the aformentioned individuals to do their thing because I think it is important.

I'll tell you in no uncertain terms that my cold storage wallets are going to open and pass through Coinbase to get fiat for use in the real world, or they are going to open to put some value on a handful of sidechains which serve my (mutually conflicting) needs.  Probably they will open and the BTC will be channeled in both directions in some proportion.

Basically, if you think that locking up BTC is critical to fight the massive system inflation, you should be delighted about sidechains.


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Enabling the maximal migration


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November 04, 2014, 08:29:15 PM
 #15675

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11206596/Dollar-smashes-through-resistance-as-mega-rally-gathers-pace.html

Quote
Dollar smashes through resistance as mega-rally gathers pace
HSBC says we are at the early stages of a dollar bull run that will change the world

You heard it here first, but nice of AEP to confirm.   Cool

(New & Improved!  Hat tip to da2ce7.)

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony.  Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process....

c'mon man.  i've been calling for a USD rally and putting up this chart even before summer when i put up this interview of AEP by McAlvaney.  can't find the post buried in this thread somewhere:

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/tag/ambrose-evans-pritchard/



the market is just insane. Are you actually navigating this nonsense?

Bro, do you even blockchain?
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November 04, 2014, 08:31:41 PM
 #15676

I hear ya bro.  I hope that 'artificial production quota' limiting BTC availability to 21 million doesn't drive you to crazy.
If you can't figure out the difference ledger integrity and production quotas then you're probably not going to be able to offer much of value to this discussion.
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November 04, 2014, 08:41:02 PM
 #15677

I hear ya bro.  I hope that 'artificial production quota' limiting BTC availability to 21 million doesn't drive you to crazy.
If you can't figure out the difference ledger integrity and production quotas then you're probably not going to be able to offer much of value to this discussion.

The ledger would work equally well with or without this 'artificial production cap'.  OTOH, the magnitude of ledger and the structures within it have a significant impact on it's performance.  That is to say, transaction rate and use patterns.  Don't pull pseudo-technical word-salad out of your ass to make a point.  That dog won't hunt with some fraction of the community.


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November 04, 2014, 09:00:32 PM
 #15678

I used the word "value" intentionally, rather than the word "price" to be meaning both 1) and 2) inclusively.
Price, Utility, Efficacy...  "virtue"

Thanks I agree with you're statement btw. (Maybe I'm conflicted on the value thing)

I guess in my mind what gives Bitcoin it's value is the incentive structure, I'm concerned that if there is an existential risk to those incentives then it's a threat to the value that incentive structure creates.

But that's the limit of my understanding maybe we are due to learn and repeat a fiew mistakes this time around.


Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Erdogan
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November 04, 2014, 09:01:23 PM
 #15679

oil?  who the hell needs oil?



Lots of people needs to sell, anyway. The times of production cost of 4 dollars are gone. Now you have to also calculate with social cost, the cost to keep folks just happy enough not to topple the masters. To stem the arab spring flood. Easily 80 dollars. They have to continue selling, even on lower prices. Turbulence ahead.
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November 04, 2014, 09:24:46 PM
 #15680

If SC suck as much as SC-discussions then we've got nothing to fear from them.

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