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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807002 times)
BldSwtTrs
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November 04, 2014, 06:18:51 PM
 #15661

So what altcoins are waiting to test the sidechain concept?

Let's them try first and see what happens.
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tvbcof
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November 04, 2014, 06:34:36 PM
 #15662


Bitcoin isn't even close to having enough hashrate by several orders of magnitude. We need many billions invested in development of mining hardware and applications.  When it gets to that level, then it will begin to pique the interest of real investment. In other words if one big company decides to invest, then others will follow.

until that point in time, we need every miner on board the MC pushing the hashrate.  i view the mining community as a speeding train trying to stay just ahead of a 51% attack that's on its heels.  there's an equilibrium there that will be disturbed by SC's, imo.

Ach!  You guys are like hamsters on a wheel.  Both ah yuz!

It was clear to me when I thought about mining (2011-ish) that mining will always reach unprofitabilty (so it's just better to buy BTC if one wants to make a dime considering the risks and hassle.)  I bought one 'rig'.  It was the first batch of USB ASICS available in the U.S. as a collector's item. I had no intention of powering it up and never did.

The point is that if one is basing their conception of economics in Bitcoinland on hashing, one is falling into the same trap as debt-based monetary solutions do with interest.  The monster chasing you is empowered by the very energy you spend trying to escape him.  This could spell doom for Bitcoin which has provoked an amazing amount of sha256 power already (which could turn against it), is wildly volatile, and is a significant threat to powerful interests.

I see sidechains as the most likely solution to this problem.  Just as a heard of ungulates can break up when attacked by a cheetah, run in multiple directions, then re-group when the danger is passed, sidechains can do the same.  Just as the herd survives (absent a weakling) so can distributed crypto-currencies.  If Bitcoin can remain the foundation (the grasslands) which form the playing field, fantastic.  If not, something else probably will.

Again, blindly trying to grow hashing power in order to preserve the grasslands is doomed to failure as a strategy in my opinion.  Some alternate method of preserving them is really the only hope.


cbeast
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November 04, 2014, 06:40:06 PM
 #15663


Bitcoin isn't even close to having enough hashrate by several orders of magnitude. We need many billions invested in development of mining hardware and applications.  When it gets to that level, then it will begin to pique the interest of real investment. In other words if one big company decides to invest, then others will follow.

until that point in time, we need every miner on board the MC pushing the hashrate.  i view the mining community as a speeding train trying to stay just ahead of a 51% attack that's on its heels.  there's an equilibrium there that will be disturbed by SC's, imo.

Ach!  You guys are like hamsters on a wheel.  Both ah yuz!

It was clear to me when I thought about mining (2011-ish) that mining will always reach unprofitabilty (so it's just better to buy BTC if one wants to make a dime considering the risks and hassle.)  I bought one 'rig'.  It was the first batch of USB ASICS available in the U.S. as a collector's item. I had no intention of powering it up and never did.

The point is that if one is basing their conception of economics in Bitcoinland on hashing, one is falling into the same trap as debt-based monetary solutions do with interest.  The monster chasing you is empowered by the very energy you spend trying to escape him.  This could spell doom for Bitcoin which has provoked an amazing amount of sha256 power already (which could turn against it), is wildly volatile, and is a significant threat to powerful interests.

I see sidechains as the most likely solution to this problem.  Just as a heard of ungulates can break up when attacked by a cheetah, run in multiple directions, then re-group when the danger is passed, sidechains can do the same.  Just as the herd survives (absent a weakling) so can distributed crypto-currencies.  If Bitcoin can remain the foundation (the grasslands) which form the playing field, fantastic.  If not, something else probably will.

Again, blindly trying to grow hashing power in order to preserve the grasslands is doomed to failure as a strategy in my opinion.  Some alternate method of preserving them is really the only hope.


Are ASICs considered cutting edge technology? When someone designs a breakthrough miner that makes ASIC look like an abacus, then a 99% attack will be cheap.

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 04, 2014, 06:45:17 PM
 #15664

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
cbeast
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November 04, 2014, 06:50:39 PM
 #15665

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
While I recognise the possibility of a SC taking away all the miners, the miners would no longer be able to verify their chains based on Bitcoin. They could attack each other. Catch-22.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
NewLiberty
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November 04, 2014, 06:51:19 PM
 #15666

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

And we'd leave behind those that can't or won't.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 04, 2014, 07:01:54 PM
 #15667

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
While I recognise the possibility of a SC taking away all the miners, the miners would no longer be able to verify their chains based on Bitcoin. They could attack each other. Catch-22.

this is yet another possible problem i mentioned pages back; the fragmentation of mining that could lead to widespread vulnerabilities.  brg444 will say this won't happen but who knows?
tvbcof
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November 04, 2014, 07:02:45 PM
 #15668

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

So Bitcoin system stability is predicated on cold wallets which are not touched???

(Actually, I would not rule it out.  In some ways they are indeed acting as a deflationary force in what is currently a massively inflationary system.  That's a little pathetic.)

edit: security --> system stability

cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 07:06:03 PM
 #15669

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

So Bitcoin system stability is predicated on cold wallets which are not touched???

(Actually, I would not rule it out.  In some ways they are indeed acting as a deflationary force in what is currently a massively inflationary system.  That's a little pathetic.)

pathetic being your opinion.  Daniel K wouldn't agree with you and neither do i.
Quote

edit: security --> system stability


agreed.  and we have that right now given all mining is concentrated on MC currently.
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November 04, 2014, 07:08:25 PM
 #15670

oil?  who the hell needs oil?

Adrian-x
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November 04, 2014, 07:08:29 PM
 #15671

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

in weighting the differences,
your first point:
there is only one application of SC that I understand as a threat to Bitcoin and that is an incentivised  p2p decentralised competing means of exchange.

The opportunities offered by SC are not limited to SC, there are other solutions that offer the same opportunities just less the decentralized competing means of exchange.

NL I also get confused by your use of value are you talking about price

I wear 2 hats,

hat 1) I am a looking out for my best interest in this context Value = I can exchange for more wealth. (this definition is related to price - bitcoins value fluctuates day to day) this is what I understand when I read it in the context you used it. ( the same motives that drive out financial system today)  
hat 2) I am a member of a global community, in this context Value =  the existence of a voluntarily adopted and self organizing incentive structure that creates a universal ledger of record used in exchanges of value.  

when the two values are alined it means value for me, but when you talk about SC being a "side" "Chain", the global community ledger of value is degraded and my projections altered.


How Bitcoins incentives are arranged is the key principals of what makes Bitcoin valuable, not the price. I've been building the Global egalitarian ledger by contributing wealth as its principals have value in the border definition of global success.  

i find it hard to see the value when enabling a decentralized competing means of exchange that alters the incentives that makes Bitcoin valuable - is it fair to call this creating value - it looks like the value is hat 1)  type value, and that's not good for Bitcoin, if it compromises hat 2) type value.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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November 04, 2014, 07:14:19 PM
 #15672

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.
While I recognise the possibility of a SC taking away all the miners, the miners would no longer be able to verify their chains based on Bitcoin. They could attack each other. Catch-22.

we'll see a to party system develop,  Cheesy it'll be called the 2 pool party system, the libertarians will still be on the side.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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November 04, 2014, 07:19:32 PM
 #15673

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

And we'd leave behind those that can't or won't.

that will be so sad if this happens before bitcoin grows up. - all those Bitcoin wont survive pundits will have more political clout. and i wont hit my target exchange steps.

cypher there is a little risk in opening cold storage, but doesn't the risk increase the more valuable Bitcoin become?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 07:31:19 PM
 #15674

If it's 1:1 then the end of Bitcoin is fine. More adoption is good. No problems here.

cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

And we'd leave behind those that can't or won't.

that will be so sad if this happens before bitcoin grows up. - all those Bitcoin wont survive pundits will have more political clout. and i wont hit my target exchange steps.

cypher there is a little risk in opening cold storage, but docent the risk increase the more valuable they become?


if we make a mistake here it cost us a hundred years until ppl get another chance.

i'm talking theoretical risks.  if you're on the tail end of a migration to a SC, supposedly the SPV proof will be reliable i would hope.  just the act of digging them out for some ppl is inconvenient and may be a risk to security and identity.  just saying.
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November 04, 2014, 07:47:56 PM
 #15675

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11206596/Dollar-smashes-through-resistance-as-mega-rally-gathers-pace.html

Quote
Dollar smashes through resistance as mega-rally gathers pace
HSBC says we are at the early stages of a dollar bull run that will change the world

You heard it here first, but nice of AEP to confirm.   Cool

(New & Improved!  Hat tip to da2ce7.)

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony.  Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process....

c'mon man.  i've been calling for a USD rally and putting up this chart even before summer when i put up this interview of AEP by McAlvaney.  can't find the post buried in this thread somewhere:

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/tag/ambrose-evans-pritchard/

NewLiberty
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November 04, 2014, 08:09:19 PM
 #15676

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

in weighting the differences,
your first point:
there is only one application of SC that I understand as a threat to Bitcoin and that is an incentivised  p2p decentralised competing means of exchange.

The opportunities offered by SC are not limited to SC, there are other solutions that offer the same opportunities just less the decentralized competing means of exchange.

NL I also get confused by your use of value are you talking about price
yes, but not only this.
I wear 2 hats,

hat 1) I am a looking out for my best interest in this context Value = I can exchange for more wealth. (this definition is related to price - bitcoins value fluctuates day to day) this is what I understand when I read it in the context you used it. ( the same motives that drive out financial system today)  
hat 2) I am a member of a global community, in this context Value =  the existence of a voluntarily adopted and self organizing incentive structure that creates a universal ledger of record used in exchanges of value.  

when the two values are alined it means value for me, but when you talk about SC being a "side" "Chain", the global community ledger of value is degraded and my projections altered.


How Bitcoins incentives are arranged is the key principals of what makes Bitcoin valuable, not the price. I've been building the Global egalitarian ledger by contributing wealth as its principals have value in the border definition of global success.  

i find it hard to see the value when enabling a decentralized competing means of exchange that alters the incentives that makes Bitcoin valuable - is it fair to call this creating value - it looks like the value is hat 1)  type value, and that's not good for Bitcoin, if it compromises hat 2) type value.
I used the word "value" intentionally, rather than the word "price" to be meaning both 1) and 2) inclusively.
Price, Utility, Efficacy...  "virtue"

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
tvbcof
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November 04, 2014, 08:19:39 PM
 #15677


cracking open cold wallets to move to a SC would open up all sorts of risks.

So Bitcoin system stability is predicated on cold wallets which are not touched???

(Actually, I would not rule it out.  In some ways they are indeed acting as a deflationary force in what is currently a massively inflationary system.  That's a little pathetic.)

pathetic being your opinion.  Daniel K wouldn't agree with you and neither do i.


I'll buy it, but it completely smokes out all those who try to achieve their objectives by arguing that Bitcoin is some sort of a wholesome exchange network with free individuals doing daily life business.

Once that nonsense is out of the way we can get down to business and focus on the real issues.  High on my list would be how to achieve the objective of providing a place for the aformentioned individuals to do their thing because I think it is important.

I'll tell you in no uncertain terms that my cold storage wallets are going to open and pass through Coinbase to get fiat for use in the real world, or they are going to open to put some value on a handful of sidechains which serve my (mutually conflicting) needs.  Probably they will open and the BTC will be channeled in both directions in some proportion.

Basically, if you think that locking up BTC is critical to fight the massive system inflation, you should be delighted about sidechains.


lebing
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November 04, 2014, 08:29:15 PM
 #15678

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11206596/Dollar-smashes-through-resistance-as-mega-rally-gathers-pace.html

Quote
Dollar smashes through resistance as mega-rally gathers pace
HSBC says we are at the early stages of a dollar bull run that will change the world

You heard it here first, but nice of AEP to confirm.   Cool

(New & Improved!  Hat tip to da2ce7.)

The USD is entering the 'red giant' phase, having exhausted its primary fuel of gold and silver backing and now being powered by the less dense energy source of hydrocarbon hegemony.  Although less productive, the economic bloat of malinvestment results in a higher apparent magnitude via the financialization process....

c'mon man.  i've been calling for a USD rally and putting up this chart even before summer when i put up this interview of AEP by McAlvaney.  can't find the post buried in this thread somewhere:

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/tag/ambrose-evans-pritchard/



the market is just insane. Are you actually navigating this nonsense?

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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November 04, 2014, 08:31:41 PM
 #15679

I hear ya bro.  I hope that 'artificial production quota' limiting BTC availability to 21 million doesn't drive you to crazy.
If you can't figure out the difference ledger integrity and production quotas then you're probably not going to be able to offer much of value to this discussion.
tvbcof
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November 04, 2014, 08:41:02 PM
 #15680

I hear ya bro.  I hope that 'artificial production quota' limiting BTC availability to 21 million doesn't drive you to crazy.
If you can't figure out the difference ledger integrity and production quotas then you're probably not going to be able to offer much of value to this discussion.

The ledger would work equally well with or without this 'artificial production cap'.  OTOH, the magnitude of ledger and the structures within it have a significant impact on it's performance.  That is to say, transaction rate and use patterns.  Don't pull pseudo-technical word-salad out of your ass to make a point.  That dog won't hunt with some fraction of the community.


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