Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[me2014]

100% is NOTHING!!! we will go bankrupt!!!

[Craige288]

And if the X3 ever does ship, I really can't see how they can afford to give proper compensation; they'll 100% go bankrupt.

Not if they've been mining them all this time.  They would have plenty of cash to provide good compensation and maybe even enough for us to recoup our losses.  They win, we go away bruised but can't complain!

[DebitMe]

I will still be receiving my first batch next week, I have elected to receive the entire batch without the LCD in order to get them ASAP. Screens will be received and distributed after the fact those who want it.

Do you have any idea about whether they will have the plastic case or the metal one?

[DebitMe]

I will still be receiving my first batch next week, I have elected to receive the entire batch without the LCD in order to get them ASAP. Screens will be received and distributed after the fact those who want it.

Do you have any idea about whether they will have the plastic case or the metal one?

Metal. I never advertised or stated the X1s would have wifi or anything of the sort, so I am full steam ahead in getting the X1s out to customers ASAP. Most dont care for the LCDs as stated here often enough.

Completely agree, don't care about LCD (possibly want in future if it ever gets fixed for resell purposes) or WiFi (LAN is better anyway), but my concern is stacking of units, which was and still is advertised, but David has said will not be possible with metal case.  Has this been fixed or will we need tons of space to spread them out?

[DebitMe]

I will still be receiving my first batch next week, I have elected to receive the entire batch without the LCD in order to get them ASAP. Screens will be received and distributed after the fact those who want it.

Do you have any idea about whether they will have the plastic case or the metal one?

Metal. I never advertised or stated the X1s would have wifi or anything of the sort, so I am full steam ahead in getting the X1s out to customers ASAP. Most dont care for the LCDs as stated here often enough.

Completely agree, don't care about LCD (possibly want in future if it ever gets fixed for resell purposes) or WiFi (LAN is better anyway), but my concern is stacking of units, which was and still is advertised, but David has said will not be possible with metal case.  Has this been fixed or will we need tons of space to spread them out?

When I visited I was shown the render for the stacker, looked pretty awesome. I dont know the current status of it, I will check.

Appreciate it!

[DebitMe]

I posted a request over on the ecointalk forums asking for pictures of the xmark.x1 account on Ghash's pool.  I requested screen shots of the workers page and history as well as the balances page of cex.io and recent payouts.

David said that to his knowledge, they only used the testnet for testing.  Then a couple of days later, they showed a picture of a X-1 hashing and on the cgminer page, it showed it was mining to Ghash.io.  Another lie or just testing?  You decide.

Doubt it we will get the pictures, but its about all we can do.

[goozman96]

I finally received a refund from Minersource. I'm done with this trash. Good luck to anyone who is still hanging on.

[goozman96]

For anyone else that needs a refund from Minersource:
I basically had to reach the point of threatening to file a report against them with the FTC and alerting  microcenter about it before I could get them to comply. But I will have lost a lot of the value of my Bitcoins. I paid half in cash, half in Bitcoins when the cost was $4800. (2.055btc now is nowhere near $2400), but I wasn't willing to risk staying with Blackarrow anymore, since, IMO, there's no way they can provide proper compensation anymore without going bankrupt.
Minersource refused to entertain the notion of sending me replacement hardware (Dragon, etc) in lieu of a refund, unfortunately, as I would have preferred that.
See update.

[notbatman]

Hashing at 2TH/s starting Feb 24th is about BTC17 worth of coins today.

[notbatman]

Hashing at 2TH/s starting Feb 24th is about BTC17 worth of coins today.

with a compensation of ...  4TH (2 UNIT) per X3, this will cost them, let's say 4 BTC
(if you don't count the R&D, the X3 miner shall cost to them 2 BTC max)

so this makes 13 BTC pr X3
how many X3 have been sold ? 2000 ? more ? lets say 2000
this makes 26000 BTC / APPROX 14 M$ today ...
even if they give us 6TH for one X3 they could make 14M$ (if there are 2000 X3 waiting)
then,
with that you can add the normal benefits that a company does in selling products...
it would be naive to think they lost all this time with asic chips right under their nose
doing nothing ...

If we believe their story about the tapeout delays, one that was admittedly their choice to squeeze out a bit more power. Then it looks like May 15th would be the time they could have started a solo mining farm with the X2. Is there proof other than an admittedly hacked verisilicon email account that the chips weren't forged last year?

Is there a date stamp on the minion?

[DebitMe]

Well I decided that if I do not have a tracking number by next Friday I unfortunately have to insist upon a refund.  I do not want to put any kind of pressure on Bobsag, and I would feel really bad cause I am sure this has been a headache for him, but I have to take my own interests into heart.  I warned a while back about getting refunds while they were still happening or you would miss the train, I would say this would be another last chance opportunity.

I have come to the conclusion, that after next Friday with 2x compensation it would be too much of a hassle just to break even with these that it is not worth it.   This is my basis behind the above claim.  I am sorry to put you into a corner like this Bobsag, but I cannot take any more chances with these guys.

[goozman96]

Well I decided that if I do not have a tracking number by next Friday I unfortunately have to insist upon a refund.  I do not want to put any kind of pressure on Bobsag, and I would feel really bad cause I am sure this has been a headache for him, but I have to take my own interests into heart.  I warned a while back about getting refunds while they were still happening or you would miss the train, I would say this would be another last chance opportunity.

I have come to the conclusion, that after next Friday with 2x compensation it would be too much of a hassle just to break even with these that it is not worth it.   This is my basis behind the above claim.  I am sorry to put you into a corner like this Bobsag, but I cannot take any more chances with these guys.

Or if you can, find someone who is willing to buy your order from you.

[BitCoin Operated Boy]

I think the so called backplane or some problems may be excuse...maybe they are mining bitcoins using our X3 hash modules .....

Yup, and money acquired from sold bitcoins goes to his account in Virgin Islands haha :-)

Haha bitfury has already filled all the boxes out there maybe Yalta is a good tax haven now

Lol actually I'm serious. The manager of BA has actually invested in shares from company in Virgin Islands :-)

(He is living in Reading, England. 40 mins long train journey from London).

[goozman96]

I think the so called backplane or some problems may be excuse...maybe they are mining bitcoins using our X3 hash modules .....

Yup, and money acquired from sold bitcoins goes to his account in Virgin Islands haha :-)

Haha bitfury has already filled all the boxes out there maybe Yalta is a good tax haven now

Lol actually I'm serious. The manager of BA has actually invested in shares from company in Virgin Islands :-)

(He is living in Reading, England. 40 mins long train journey from London).

do you have more infos about this ? where did you get this info ?

The information is out there. I won't bother posting a link to it in this thread cuz BA will delete it.

[goozman96]

For anyone else that needs a refund from Minersource:
I basically had to reach the point of threatening to file a report against them with the FTC and alerting  microcenter about it before I could get them to comply. But I will have lost a lot of the value of my Bitcoins. I paid half in cash, half in Bitcoins when the cost was $4800. (2.055btc now is nowhere near $2400), but I wasn't willing to risk staying with Blackarrow anymore, since, IMO, there's no way they can provide proper compensation anymore without going bankrupt.
Minersource refused to entertain the notion of sending me replacement hardware (Dragon, etc) in lieu of a refund, unfortunately, as I would have preferred that.

Wait hold on, this is Minersource doing the BTC denominated refunds? Did they make you sign some kind of waiver like the poster several weeks ago described? If so that explains everything.

That's not legal in the United States, Bitcoin is not legal tender in the United States. Nobody can force you to accept settlement of a debt denominated in BTC, it's not legally recognized as a unit of account. Minersource owes you the dollar amount you paid, because in this use case bitcoin is just the medium of exchange. This is very serious and justifies legal action against Minersource.

I would go ahead and file a complaint with the FTC at minimum.

They didn't make me sign anything, but I presume my email communications with them sufficed as a form of consent to the refund terms. I'm not happy with it, but I'll take it. Sure, it'd be nice to receive $2400 valuation in bitcoin - or just refund the whole $4800 in USD - but it's whatever at this point. I've mentioned this before: I'm 99% sure that if bitcoin's value was higher than what it was right now than when I paid, then they'd try to get me to accept a lesser amount of bitcoin in order to equate with the current - hypothetical - exchange rate. But we won't know that until bitcoin rises past $1200 again in the future. I made the decision to "cash out" at ~$1200/btc when I paid for the miner, but that's not what I got back when cancelling my order (induced by BA's utter incompetence).

As for filing a complaint, I'll leave that to someone else. I agreed I wouldn't file a complaint if I got my refund - albeit an unfair one, IMO.
See update.

[goozman96]

At least that is what is fair and logical.

It's only fair and logical to you when it means more money for you.

If btc price went up I can guarantee you would be begging for your original btc.

Also people have sued bfl and hashfast for their original btc payment and won.

There is no easy way to determine the value of btc during time of payment and time of refund as there will always be debate if the price goes up/down or differs depending on which exchange. So without specific terms it is unreasonable to expect this.

It is simply bullshit to impose your own special refund terms after you agreed to no refunds.

And it makes no sense to attempt to smear a companies reputation through the ftc/whatever just because a product they sold was delayed. (which you agreed to no refunds) Especially when minersource is not at fault here and they have been working hard to make things right.

Btc price went down since when i paid them, if those bullshit accusations you are trying to throw at me are true i would have asked for a lot more than my initial 2 btc back.

It makes plenty of sense that if you operate a business in the UNITED STATES that you adhere to their rules.

I have acknowledged plenty of times that minersource is most likely getting fucked just as hard as any of us. They wanna be the big dogs running their mining equipment business, they can follow the rules then.

Did you even read what i said? Your fucking response is so far off base it is like you lack any ability to comprehend what was said.

And this is why BTC isn't likely to ever make it as a virtual currency.  Because everyone wants to slant in the way that benefits them.  When Hashfast was talking refunds in dollars those that paid in cheap BTC wanted their BTC back in full and when those that paid BFL and BA etc. in pricey BTC want refunds in dollars now that the price has dropped.  It's not a currency, it's a commodity.

The problem is that the seller (BA, BFL, etc.) can and choose to have the slant in their favor in both situations. Wouldn't you think that's unfair? If there's gonna be a rule, it should apply everywhere.. Not have the rule tweaked so that it benefits the same parties each time. I'm of the opinion that the amount of btc refunded should correlate with the exchange value. In theory, when we pay in Bitcoin for $X, they should be immediately exchanging those BTC for USD. Thus, when a refund is issued, they should purchase Bitcoins from an exchange for the same USD valuation and sent to the customer.
The only time this would not be appropriate would be if a product's price is firmly denominated in BTC (ie the BTC price doesn't fluctuate in response to the current exchange rate).
Everyone else can have their own opinion. This is mine and I feel like it's a reasonable position.

[goozman96]

At least that is what is fair and logical.

It's only fair and logical to you when it means more money for you.

If btc price went up I can guarantee you would be begging for your original btc.

Also people have sued bfl and hashfast for their original btc payment and won.

There is no easy way to determine the value of btc during time of payment and time of refund as there will always be debate if the price goes up/down or differs depending on which exchange. So without specific terms it is unreasonable to expect this.

It is simply bullshit to impose your own special refund terms after you agreed to no refunds.

And it makes no sense to attempt to smear a companies reputation through the ftc/whatever just because a product they sold was delayed. (which you agreed to no refunds) Especially when minersource is not at fault here and they have been working hard to make things right.

Btc price went down since when i paid them, if those bullshit accusations you are trying to throw at me are true i would have asked for a lot more than my initial 2 btc back.

It makes plenty of sense that if you operate a business in the UNITED STATES that you adhere to their rules.

I have acknowledged plenty of times that minersource is most likely getting fucked just as hard as any of us. They wanna be the big dogs running their mining equipment business, they can follow the rules then.

Did you even read what i said? Your fucking response is so far off base it is like you lack any ability to comprehend what was said.

And this is why BTC isn't likely to ever make it as a virtual currency.  Because everyone wants to slant in the way that benefits them.  When Hashfast was talking refunds in dollars those that paid in cheap BTC wanted their BTC back in full and when those that paid BFL and BA etc. in pricey BTC want refunds in dollars now that the price has dropped.  It's not a currency, it's a commodity.

The problem is that the seller (BA, BFL, etc.) can and choose to have the slant in their favor in both situations. Wouldn't you think that's unfair? If there's gonna be a rule, it should apply everywhere.. Not have the rule tweaked so that it benefits the same parties each time. I'm of the opinion that the amount of btc refunded should correlate with the exchange value. In theory, when we pay in Bitcoin for $X, they should be immediately exchanging those BTC for USD. Thus, when a refund is issued, they should purchase Bitcoins from an exchange for the same USD valuation and sent to the customer.
The only time this would not be appropriate would be if a product's price is firmly denominated in BTC (ie the BTC price doesn't fluctuate in response to the current exchange rate).
Everyone else can have their own opinion. This is mine and I feel like it's a reasonable position.

You are entitled to your opinion. How ever incorrect it might be  I see your point, but why not just use fiat instead? Why not just cash out your btc then and use it to pay for what ever at the point of sale?

I get that you are upset that the rig makers stand to gain massive amounts. I have thought the same thing. They could have just cashed out when it was 1200, then bought back in for 600 a few months later. That really only works if you make tons of assumptions about what they are actually doing with the money.

It makes the most sense that if something is valued in fiat, and you have two choices of fiat and btc to pay. That you receive back your original amount of the payment type. If btc was worth 1200 when you bought something for 1200, that was 1 btc, the price of btc drops to 600. Well if you hadn't have purchased the item and still had your 1 btc, it would now only be worth 600.

What in your right mind makes you think that the merchant should eat that risk for you?

Because it's not a risk on the merchant's part. Like I said, if they did what they were supposed to - exchange the BTC for USD upon receipt of payment - then it should be no problem to take that same USD and either refund that, or exchange it for BTC and refund that.
Me using my BTC to buy the rig at $1200 was my form of cashing out. Had I known that a refund would not be honored for the same value then I definitely would have exchanged the BTC for USD then sent the payment. In addition, I didn't foresee having to get a refund to begin with, otherwise I never would have made the initial purchase. I assumed there might be delays, but nothing like this.

[goozman96]

The real issue is the conversions. It gets convoluted as shit. Refunds should really only be given, if at all, in the form of payment they were made. It is too damn confusing any other way, and opens the door to people trying to skew things in their favor. It is a rather cut and dry matter in my mind. You get what you paid back. If you gave them 5 bananas then that is what you should get back, 5 bananas. the concept is a little abstract maybe? I don't really think so but why don't people seem to grasp it?

Completely misunderstood what you said earlier.

Sorry about that.

I agree with you and it is goozman I disagree with.

I'm on your side if the item is priced solely in Bitcoin and the price doesn't fluctuate due to the conversion factor. Anything else is the seller trying to have his cake and eat it too.

[notbatman]

The hash boards for the X3's are now being made into X2's for a hash farm. How does this work for X3 customers?

Based on the last update X3 customers don't even have anything in production.

[goozman96]

Also, a response to those who say why didn't I simply cash out the 2.055btc and then send USD: minersource only accepted Bitcoin at the time. I got lucky to get them to accept USD for the second half of my payment a week or so later; they had only just set up their bank to accept wire payments. So, I couldn't have sent USD for the first half of the payment even if I wanted to.
See update.