[~1000 GH/sec] BTC Guild - 0% Fee Pool, LP, SSL, Full Precision, and More

[Duffman]

1706   136836   7/18/2011 4:28   0:13:29   0390491   115 until confirmed
1705   136832   7/18/2011 4:15   0:10:29   0309364   111 until confirmed
1704   136830   7/18/2011 4:04   0:10:11   0300277   109 until confirmed
1703   136828   7/18/2011 3:54   1:58:16   3511008   107 until confirmed
1702   136814   7/18/2011 1:56   0:21:59   0645733   093 until confirmed
1701   136812   7/18/2011 1:34   0:02:36   0079533   091 until confirmed
1700   136810   7/18/2011 1:31   0:00:34   0010658   089 until confirmed

yay!  except for 1703, there's a good streak of short blocks.

[1714195679]

1714195679

[hugolp]

somebody said you could detect it through bitcoin itself.

just patch your bitcoin to do > 100 or more connections.
when a new block is announced have a look at the sender.

if the first announce came from btc guild its most likely their block.

its not my idea. but i am currently thinking about writing a patch for bitcoin.

So I was thinking in a way to stop this and I think its easy: Just have deepbit, BTCGuild and maybe others bitcoind client connect to the Bitcoin network throught the same proxy. The pools would still have the same chance of propagating when a new block is found because they are using the same proxy, but the pool hoopers would not know from which pool is coming because all they see is the messages coming from the same source.

Ideally pools would join in groups of 3 and 4 and create several proxies so there would be less chance of cheating and it would be more decentralized.

Thoughts?

[Sukrim]

Thoughts?

Proxy = single point of failure.

Proxys of other pool clusters seem like a good target to DDoS to me...

Also connecting to that proxy with as many (forged/fake) clients as possible and just dropping block announcements silently might also work (and be a bit more subtle) - should also highly increase your pool's chances of winning a "block's race".

Thirdly, non-proportional pools all don't need this Voodoo (so they would be far better connected to the network --> better chances at block solves!), and there are not that many "groups of 3 and 4" pools left for such stuff... thanks to the hoppers!

[hugolp]

Thoughts?

Proxy = single point of failure.

1)Proxys of other pool clusters seem like a good target to DDoS to me...

2Also connecting to that proxy with as many (forged/fake) clients as possible and just dropping block announcements silently might also work (and be a bit more subtle) - should also highly increase your pool's chances of winning a "block's race".

3Thirdly, non-proportional pools all don't need this Voodoo (so they would be far better connected to the network --> better chances at block solves!), and there are not that many "groups of 3 and 4" pools left for such stuff... thanks to the hoppers!

No, because it would be a private proxy, where only 2 or 3 pools have their bitcoind connected.

1) You can still DDoS their bitcoind now. Just because groups of 2 or 3 pools join together doesnt change the game much.

2) You could not connect, it would be a private proxy only used by the bitcoind of the selected pools. Read too quick. I think if someone did something like this, it would be considered spam and some measure would be taken to avoid those clients or IP's.

3) Whats your beef against proportional pools?

[ellipsis]

That's a horrible analogy, unless you are trying to find some sort of moral equivalent to the "wrongness" of the situation. It's more like playing poker and some people have sunglasses on, but you don't like that.

Nah, it's more like a group of mercenaries signed up to fight a war. However some people disappear every time a battle lasts more than 5 minutes but still get paid like those who slugged it out for the next 8 hours.

Yeah, well, delayed stats is kinda like when you go to Burger King and ask for a burger with cheddar cheese, and they say, "You can't have it your way!" So, you say, "Well, I have my OWN cheddar cheese! I'll just put it on top." Then they say, "You can't bring outside food into here!" Yeah, it's kinda like that.

[hugolp]

Yeah, well, delayed stats is kinda like when you go to Burger King and ask for a burger with cheddar cheese, and they say, "You can't have it your way!" So, you say, "Well, I have my OWN cheddar cheese! I'll just put it on top." Then they say, "You can't bring outside food into here!" Yeah, it's kinda like that.

So you leave and go to another place to get your burger. If enough clients dont like how the fast good burger place is operated it will loose a lot of the clients and it will close. So far, it seems the majority of the BTCGuild users like the changes. Nobody is stopping from creating your own pool if you think you can do better.

[pdawg]

Yeah, well, delayed stats is kinda like when you go to Burger King and ask for a burger with cheddar cheese, and they say, "You can't have it your way!" So, you say, "Well, I have my OWN cheddar cheese! I'll just put it on top." Then they say, "You can't bring outside food into here!" Yeah, it's kinda like that.

So you leave and go to another place to get your burger. If enough clients dont like how the fast good burger place is opated it will loose a lot of the clients and it will close. So far, it seems the majority of the BTCGuild users like the changes. Nobody is stopping from creating your own pool if you think you can do better.

+1

[Coolhwip]

Yeah, well, delayed stats is kinda like when you go to Burger King and ask for a burger with cheddar cheese, and they say, "You can't have it your way!" So, you say, "Well, I have my OWN cheddar cheese! I'll just put it on top." Then they say, "You can't bring outside food into here!" Yeah, it's kinda like that.

So you leave and go to another place to get your burger. If enough clients dont like how the fast good burger place is operated it will loose a lot of the clients and it will close. So far, it seems the majority of the BTCGuild users like the changes. Nobody is stopping from creating your own pool if you think you can do better.

Why would anyone spend any effort in building or going to another restaurant when a sucker already built this one? He even gives you the option to not pay for what you eat (0% donation). I sure as hell ain't recommending the people who pay me to manage their accounts and hardware to leave this place until it burns to the ground. If anyone was really out to hurt this pool, they should just stop donating en masse.   

[Sukrim]

Thoughts?

Proxy = single point of failure.

1)Proxys of other pool clusters seem like a good target to DDoS to me...

2Also connecting to that proxy with as many (forged/fake) clients as possible and just dropping block announcements silently might also work (and be a bit more subtle) - should also highly increase your pool's chances of winning a "block's race".

3Thirdly, non-proportional pools all don't need this Voodoo (so they would be far better connected to the network --> better chances at block solves!), and there are not that many "groups of 3 and 4" pools left for such stuff... thanks to the hoppers!

No, because it would be a private proxy, where only 2 or 3 pools have their bitcoind connected.

1) You can still DDoS their bitcoind now. Just because groups of 2 or 3 pools join together doesnt change the game much.

2) You could not connect, it would be a private proxy only used by the bitcoind of the selected pools. Read too quick. I think if someone did something like this, it would be considered spam and some measure would be taken to avoid those clients or IP's.

3) Whats your beef against proportional pools?

1) By DDoSing the proxy you delay 2-3 pools instead of just one. This means it is 2-3 times more effective.

2) You cannot avoid clients (it is just a protocol, any information about cients in there can be faked). Avoiding them will be hard, as there is no way to check if a client has forwarded a block or not (and if there was a request, it would of course be answered "true" by the fake client). This is the exact opposite of spam by the way...

3) They offer 0 advantages over other payout systems, are however possible to be hopped, which only increases the income of hoppers and pool owners. Countermeasures lead to worse and worse transparency and services of the pool operator - again only at the benefit that the payout system stays the same (broken) one as before and you don't have to explain something new to your miners but boast about your "great service" of "fighting hoppers" (and of course there's the benefit for the pool operator that cheating gets easier for him + the income is increased by hoppers who DO work like everyone else, just not 24/7).


Such a proxy as you suggest would add 1 additional hop and need to relay ALL bitcoin related traffic for several pools... Yes, it would be a more interesting challenge to hop these pools then individually, but in the end you could just split your hash rate between all pools if it is just 2-3 pools behind this proxy. 14% increased earnings are still better then nothing, right?

If there would be a pool that is bigger than the other, then you could even weigh the splitting accordingly.


By the way, I like to get my burgers at that time of the day when they have special deals and offer them cheaper... and some people like to bitch that the normal price is higher and they always buy it at these prices!
Right now they swipe your credit card and tell you an hour later how much it did cost.

[hugolp]

The DDOS part is easy to avoid. Have two or three (or more) proxies.

Such a proxy as you suggest would add 1 additional hop and need to relay ALL bitcoin related traffic for several pools... Yes, it would be a more interesting challenge to hop these pools then individually, but in the end you could just split your hash rate between all pools if it is just 2-3 pools behind this proxy. 14% increased earnings are still better then nothing, right?

I dont see how you would get an increase in 14% earnings. Imagine a proxy of three pools. The proxy emits a new block mesage and you properly guess its coming from that proxy. Now you move your miners proportionally (the way you preffer) to the three pools connected to that proxy. You might be gaining by connecting to the pool that just found a new block, but how do you know that the other two pools are not in a bad strike and you are hashing low profitable shares? It might increase a bit your earnings, but not close to 14%.

But even that can be avoided. The pools could have several proxies and rotate among them randomly. That would stop also the DDOS attacks (or make them more difficult). Now the groups are not defined but change randomly. How could you attack such system?

By the way, I like to get my burgers at that time of the day when they have special deals and offer them cheaper... and some people like to bitch that the normal price is higher and they always buy it at these prices!
Right now they swipe your credit card and tell you an hour later how much it did cost.

Costumers are free to complain to the business owners about the service and go away if their complaints are not met. If the clients keep returning to the business it means they dont care that much about it. If the owners feel it would improve the service they can decide to change the way their business operate to accomodate some of the complaints of the costumers. If other costumers dont like the changes they can complain and/or go away as well. I dont see the big deal.

[Eri]

how do you even know who the pool is connected to? i thought it kept a large number of connection. even If you could find out who it was connected to the pool owner could just set it up to switch to different nodes so they are never the same. for reliability, it could use 100(?) out of 500(?) commonly used 'well connected' nodes mixed with random normal nodes. if any of the 'well connected' nodes go down it just connects to 'normal' nodes. am i missing something?(entirely likely lol)

Edit: you could also have the 3 big pools connect to each other as well, the block would be sent out through all 3 pools making it nearly impossible to tell which sent it out.

[ellipsis]

Edit: you could also have the 3 big pools connect to each other as well, the block would be sent out through all 3 pools making it nearly impossible to tell which sent it out.

The pools won't delay each other's messages, either.

[Eri]

Edit: you could also have the 3 big pools connect to each other as well, the block would be sent out through all 3 pools making it nearly impossible to tell which sent it out.

The pools won't delay each other's messages, either.

I really don't see how that is an issue in regards to what I'm saying whether you're being sarcastic or not.

[Xephan]

Edit: you could also have the 3 big pools connect to each other as well, the block would be sent out through all 3 pools making it nearly impossible to tell which sent it out.

The pools won't delay each other's messages, either.

I really don't see how that is an issue in regards to what I'm saying whether you're being sarcastic or not.

I think he meant you're assuming the pools won't simply block/delay the another pool's message so that they can become the block generator instead.

[Eri]

its a non issue, its only 1 connection of many that a pool has and will have no effect in stopping the block being sent out. it does however help each pool spread their blocks faster and helps to hide which pool generated it. its really a win win for them. assuming they went with this scheme the effect of not sending it out while pretending they are offers little to no benefit, and being caught(if its possible) would do nothing but hurt their reputation. i don't think it would be worth it to lie for virtually no benefit to the pool operator.

[Coolhwip]

Pool being DDOS'd or what?

[sharky112065]

Pool being DDOS'd or what?

Doesn't look like it. No packet loss. Seems to be server related.

[Coolhwip]

Super server turned out to be not so super


Place your bets now, were playing How low can you go!



Slowly recovering

[hiVe]

eleuthria, I agree with one of the previous posters and think that all the negativity in here is coming from the pool hoppers (who were walking off with 30% more than they deserved, the cost of which us legit users paid for)

Don't sweat it, know you did the right thing for the legit loyal users who keep their cards pointed at you 24/7 (except during blackouts, etc)

I applaud the delay as well!

+1 to this.  Let them hop elsewhere.

+1 i also agree
hoppers begone!

[eleuthria]

Was definitely an attack on the pools overnight.  Seems to have lasted about an hour to an hour and a half.  Affected the two servers which have published addresses on the website but not the other.