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Author Topic: [Payout Updates] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation  (Read 145701 times)
S3052
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July 07, 2012, 08:29:34 AM
 #1201

...
(2) you stated in the past that you will close out open positions at a fixed buy/sell rate, which is close to the BTC/USD price at the time the site was taken offline.
Is this statement still valid?
(3) how do you intend to handle the case that a (accurate) claim includes a position, but the opening base price of that position can't be established preciesly?

Thanks for any clarifications
-- Ichthyo

2- not sure. I'll have to check and repost here. I think they are being closed at 5 (not sure though).
...

...Do you email people to notify them that you've sent a payment? Do people get emails notifying them that they're accurate and just in a queue for payments?
...
People have been asking for this from day 1 and this is the answer you have ?  "5$, not sure"

You've not answered, I suggest you send notice before and after sending payment... to avoid sending to wrong addresses.

I'd swear I had answered this.

Anyways shorts close @ 4.9 longs @ 5.1

I don't believe it was ever answered.  Are you in charge of doing the disbursements now?  It would be nice if there was like a timetable for payouts.  I may be one of the few, but like most/all of my money was tied up in this.  If we could get a reasonable timetable with our first 50% payouts that would be excellent.  Thanks.

+1

I am in the same position. I big part of my funds are locked up as well.
Please help genjix.

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1481041274
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mobodick
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July 07, 2012, 09:50:42 AM
 #1202



The claims process (both policies and procedures) are very reasonable.


Dude, if you think that communicating through an obscure thread on a forum about peoples lost monies is reasonable then you should have your brain checked for severe damage.
Seriously. Worst communication practices ever. There is nothing reasonable about this process whatsoever.
There is no confirmation of deposition of claim, for one.
You say claim period is closed, but i don't even know you received or accepted my claim because you didnt care to confirm it.
Careless practices.
Now stop making it look nicer than it realy is and don't patronize people.
And please take a course in communication asap, you clearly need it.
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July 07, 2012, 10:48:45 AM
 #1203

PS: incidentally, do you know the "axiom of the mythical man month": adding more manpower to an late project makes it yet more late.

This is -ONLY- true for projects that require lot's of communication.
I can imagine checking a list of claims is emberisingly parallel and can scale pretty well with added manpower.
Each added member can check part of the claims completely independantly and only needs to communicate back some compact result.
So at the best mmm applies to some activities in this process but not to the bit that actually matters to (ex) customers.
Trying to blame mmm for not getting this sorted in the past couple of months is ridiculous.
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July 07, 2012, 11:47:58 AM
 #1204

There WAS an automatic email to confirm your claim. If you didn't get it and confirmed it, then you most likely didn't successfully submit a claim. Also, people were talking about the claiming process via the wepage, only "Maria" thought it was good practice to claim funds in this thread only.

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July 07, 2012, 11:55:52 AM
 #1205

I am glad I only have $100USD in my account but this is very frustrating waiting to see if anything will come back, in reality I would of spent more time in dollars reading this thread than the hundred is worth.
'Hello, Your account is in the queue and waiting to be reviewed.' That is all I have had in communications 2 weeks ago from bitcoinica and crew. I have not been vocal at all about this just waiting and hoping, so I can feel for those who have had thousands tied up in this fiasco.
As hard as it may be getting your records back together surely things could of been done with more clarity.
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July 07, 2012, 04:46:21 PM
 #1206



The claims process (both policies and procedures) are very reasonable.


Dude, if you think that communicating through an obscure thread on a forum about peoples lost monies is reasonable then you should have your brain checked for severe damage.
Seriously. Worst communication practices ever. There is nothing reasonable about this process whatsoever.
There is no confirmation of deposition of claim, for one.
You say claim period is closed, but i don't even know you received or accepted my claim because you didnt care to confirm it.
Careless practices.
Now stop making it look nicer than it realy is and don't patronize people.
And please take a course in communication asap, you clearly need it.


If you didn't get a confirmation email then you either did not open a claim successfully or your email provider classified it as spam.

Almost everybody has received additional emails requesting payment instructions as well.
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July 07, 2012, 10:32:42 PM
 #1207

Will bitcoinica be able to pay 50% of all claims before bitcoin makes a new high for the year?

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
chunglam
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July 07, 2012, 10:40:35 PM
 #1208

Hi phantomcircuit, could you answer my question? Thanks.
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,

The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.
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July 08, 2012, 12:39:43 AM
 #1209

Will bitcoinica be able to pay 50% of all claims before bitcoin makes a new high for the year?

At this point Bitcoinica is just falling more and more behind in being able to fully reimburse people for their losses.

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July 08, 2012, 01:56:28 AM
 #1210

I my claim is validated as acurate and I haven't received a dime.

I'll be posting here as soon as I get my 50%,
And so I ask, please, everyone to do the same.

Until then, AFAIC, there is NO update to Bitcoinica Payout..

Last email with them was, "I need these BTC badly !!!" Reply : "They are already flagged for special attention."
And that was 13 days ago
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July 08, 2012, 11:06:12 AM
 #1211

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.
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July 08, 2012, 11:12:10 AM
 #1212

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.

he have answerd that:
longs will be closed at 5.10
shorts will be closed at 4.90
which means if you buyed 10 bitcoin at 6.0, they are going to be sold at 5.1 (ie. you lose money.)

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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July 08, 2012, 11:16:17 AM
 #1213

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.

he have answerd that:
longs will be closed at 5.10
shorts will be closed at 4.90
which means if you buyed 10 bitcoin at 6.0, they are going to be sold at 5.1 (ie. you lose money.)

No, I have no issue with the closing long position at 5.1(although I prefer a higher price) but they have no right to sold my BTCs at any price without my authorization
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July 08, 2012, 11:22:50 AM
 #1214

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.

he have answerd that:
longs will be closed at 5.10
shorts will be closed at 4.90
which means if you buyed 10 bitcoin at 6.0, they are going to be sold at 5.1 (ie. you lose money.)

No, I have no issue with the closing long position at 5.1(although I prefer a higher price) but they have no right to sell my BTCs at any price without my authorization
yes they do. if you owe(sic!) them money, they may take some of your btc and sell them.

maybe you should talk to them privately to sort things out... instead of over the forum.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
ninjarobot
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July 08, 2012, 11:25:17 AM
 #1215

I'm also still at 0.

The last communication I received was on June 28:

Quote
It says the account is legitimate: "The info provided is legit."

I think though it is a lot of money, so probably we want to be triple sure before making a payout (in case it is done mistakenly).

What comes after triple checking? quadruple checking? I have not given my consent to Bitcoinica to hold on to my deposits after the closure of the trading platform almost 2 months ago now. Will Bitcoinica honor their own ToS?

Quote
[7] Obligations of Bitcoinica

Bitcoinica will use best efforts to supply you with the information and technical means to use its Services in a twenty-four-hour mode of operation. To the best of its abilities, Bitcoinica will fulfill all your trading orders, keep the register of your orders and of their fulfillment, and provide you with necessary extracts upon your request. Bitcoinica shall provide the following online reports:
Open Positions: Report presenting the account's open transactions.
Account Statement: Report presenting the account's balance at a given point of time.

Clearly Bitcoinica is unable to fulfill these obligations. The question is what 'Best effort' actually means. I would like to see online report representing my balance at this point in time.

Quote
[12] Limitation of Liability

IN NO EVENT SHALL BITCOINICA, ITS OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR EMPLOYEES BE LIABLE FOR LOST PROFITS OR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH OUR WEB SITE, OUR SERVICES OR THIS AGREEMENT (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE) EXCEPT AS STATED IN THIS AGREEMENT. THE LIABILITY OF BITCOINICA, ITS OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR EMPLOYEES, TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IN ANY PROVEN CIRCUMSTANCE IS LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT OF MONEY YOU TRANSFERRED OR DEPOSITED IN YOUR ACCOUNT AT BITCOINICA IN RELATION TO THE TRANSACTION GIVING RISE TO SUCH LIABILITY. In the case where you make funds available for trading via a voucher, "coupon code", or similar from another financial service, banking institution or exchange, you acknolwedge that you are providing Bitcoinica access to those funds for trading purposes only and that the originating financial institution is the holder of such deposits. Bitcoinica is not liable for any loss if such institutions fail in honoring withdrawal of customer funds.

Basically it states Bitcoinica liable for the amount of money customers deposited and should return this in full. I don't think Bitcoinica can penalize legit account holders for incorrect payouts they made to others in mistake. The question here is what 'PROVEN CIRCUMSTANCE' means. Is the burden of proof on the company or the customer? I would argue that this is primary Bitcoinica's responsibility. Bitcoinica is treating all customers as potential 'malicious agents' and treating any claim evidence as possibly faked.

The other interesting tidbit here is that when you provide funds using vouchers (e.g. MtGox claim codes), the originating institution will remain the holder of those deposits. So maybe I should ask MtGox for my Bitcoinica deposits back Wink

Quote
[16] Company's rights

Bitcoinica reserves the right to suspend the operation of this site or any part or sections of it. In such an event, Bitcoinica may, at its sole discretion (with or without notice), close out the customers' open trades at prices it considers fair and reasonable at such a time and no claims may be entertained against the Company in connection thereto. Bitcoinica may, at its sole discretion, impose volume or other limits on Customer accounts.

Clearly Bitcoinica exercised this right as Bitcoinica has been suspended for almost 2 months now. It also appears that the closing price is non-negotiable. (fine with me, since I did not have open positions anyway)

Quote
[18] Technical Problems

You understand that while the Internet and the World Wide Web are generally reliable, technical problems or other conditions may delay or prevent you from accessing the Web site. Bitcoinica shall not be liable, and you agree not to hold or seek to hold Bitcoinica or any of its agents or service providers liable, for any technical problems, system failures and malfunctions, communication line failures, equipment or software failures or malfunctions, system access issues, system capacity issues, high Internet traffic demand, security breaches and unauthorized access, and other similar computer problems and defects.

Does the liability in this clause only apply to 'web site access' or also extend to liability for customer deposits and withdrawals?

Quote
[21] Governing Law; Arbitration and Court Jurisdiction

...If any part of this Agreement is unlawful, void or unenforceable, that part will be deemed severable and will not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining provisions. The parties recognize electronic and magnetic recordings as evidence when settling disputable matters...

...Binding Arbitration: For any Claim (excluding Claims for injunctive or other equitable relief) where the total amount of the award sought is less than $10,000, you or Bitcoinica may elect to resolve the dispute through binding arbitration conducted in person, on-line or based solely upon written submissions where no in-person appearance is required. In such cases, the arbitration shall be administered in accordance with New Zealand law or any other established Alternative Dispute Resolution provider mutually agreed upon by the parties.

The ToS gives customers the right to resolve claims of <10K through a Dispute Resolution Provider in NZ. Yet Bitcoinica did not register with a DRS. Has any customer made use of this kind of service. If so how? What options are available for claims > 10K?
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July 08, 2012, 11:25:53 AM
 #1216

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.

he have answerd that:
longs will be closed at 5.10
shorts will be closed at 4.90
which means if you buyed 10 bitcoin at 6.0, they are going to be sold at 5.1 (ie. you lose money.)

No, I have no issue with the closing long position at 5.1(although I prefer a higher price) but they have no right to sell my BTCs at any price without my authorization
yes they do. if you owe(sic!) them money, they may take some of your btc and sell them.

maybe you should talk to them privately to sort things out... instead of over the forum.

No, they still owe me money.
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July 08, 2012, 11:31:44 AM
 #1217

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.

he have answerd that:
longs will be closed at 5.10
shorts will be closed at 4.90
which means if you buyed 10 bitcoin at 6.0, they are going to be sold at 5.1 (ie. you lose money.)

No, I have no issue with the closing long position at 5.1(although I prefer a higher price) but they have no right to sell my BTCs at any price without my authorization
yes they do. if you owe(sic!) them money, they may take some of your btc and sell them.

maybe you should talk to them privately to sort things out... instead of over the forum.

No, they still owe me money.
i know! but you owe them too, if they closed that position, and you have no usd.
if you had some of there stuff, you could sell it to get back some of the money that they owe you.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
disclaimer201
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July 08, 2012, 11:32:40 AM
 #1218

For the second half of my 50% I would now accept Litecoins if that helps.

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July 08, 2012, 11:47:59 AM
 #1219

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.

he have answerd that:
longs will be closed at 5.10
shorts will be closed at 4.90
which means if you buyed 10 bitcoin at 6.0, they are going to be sold at 5.1 (ie. you lose money.)

No, I have no issue with the closing long position at 5.1(although I prefer a higher price) but they have no right to sell my BTCs at any price without my authorization
yes they do. if you owe(sic!) them money, they may take some of your btc and sell them.

maybe you should talk to them privately to sort things out... instead of over the forum.

No, they still owe me money.
i know! but you owe them too, if they closed that position, and you have no usd.
if you had some of there stuff, you could sell it to get back some of the money that they owe you.

That's why I ask them at what price they will sell my BTCs to cover the lose, sell @5.1 is not acceptable. I can deposit USD to cover the lose after I get back all my BTC.
kokjo
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July 08, 2012, 12:14:07 PM
 #1220

Just received 40% of my claim amount, I guess they reserved(or sold?) some BTC for the lose of my long position.
Sorry, I have to repeat my question:
Quote
Hi genjix/phantomcircuit,
The base price of my long position is higher than 5.1 and my USD balance is zero, so will you sell my BTC to cover the lose of my long position? @what price? Thanks.

he have answerd that:
longs will be closed at 5.10
shorts will be closed at 4.90
which means if you buyed 10 bitcoin at 6.0, they are going to be sold at 5.1 (ie. you lose money.)

No, I have no issue with the closing long position at 5.1(although I prefer a higher price) but they have no right to sell my BTCs at any price without my authorization
yes they do. if you owe(sic!) them money, they may take some of your btc and sell them.

maybe you should talk to them privately to sort things out... instead of over the forum.

No, they still owe me money.
i know! but you owe them too, if they closed that position, and you have no usd.
if you had some of there stuff, you could sell it to get back some of the money that they owe you.

That's why I ask them at what price they will sell my BTCs to cover the lose, sell @5.1 is not acceptable. I can deposit USD to cover the lose after I get back all my BTC.
try contact them privatly(pm, irc, email, snailmail, meeting in person)!

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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