[Payout Updates] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation

[imsaguy]

If you have all the information that you need to prove that 'fake claims' are a waste of time, then why not pay out already, even if its only fractional until the backup funding arrives.  The only way to make fake claims a waste of time is that you can dispute it.  If yo have strong enough data to dispute, you have strong enough data to distribute.  Get to it.

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[zhoutong]

I hope you have plans to delete those IDs.

They will be deleted permanently once the issue is resolved, unless Bitcoinica Consultancy objects. In that case I'll also post relevant disclosure.

Even though technically I didn't hold any stake in Bitcoinica, but since people submitted these documents due to the trust in myself, I think I have the right to decide what to do with the data.

My own passport scan is also in the repository. I don't want to hand it to third parties either.

[Maged]

zhoutong, you might not need to hand the IDs over, but you may be legally required to keep them for a few years. Keep that in mind.

[repentance]

I hope you have plans to delete those IDs.

They will be deleted permanently once the issue is resolved, unless Bitcoinica Consultancy objects. In that case I'll also post relevant disclosure.

Even though technically I didn't hold any stake in Bitcoinica, but since people submitted these documents due to the trust in myself, I think I have the right to decide what to do with the data.

My own passport scan is also in the repository. I don't want to hand it to third parties either.

There may be a legal limitation on their ability to delete it any time soon.  They'd need to run that by their lawyers, but it may be several years before that information can be legally destroyed (it looks like it might be 5 years in NZ).

[zhoutong]

zhoutong, you might not need to hand the IDs over, but you may be legally required to keep them for a few years. Keep that in mind.

Sure. I will obtain some info from Bitcoinica LP about this. If any actions are taken I will post disclosures.

[S3052]

What about the original topic, the payout: when will it start?

[repentance]

What about the original topic, the payout: when will it start?

The continued silence on this question is especially annoying when the profiles of the general partners show them as having been online (phantomcircuit's last activity was only a couple of hours ago) recently.  It's pretty galling for Bitcoinica customers to see Patrick posting in the Intersango thread but ignoring this one.

[disclaimer201]

What about the original topic, the payout: when will it start?

The continued silence on this question is especially annoying when the profiles of the general partners show them as having been online (phantomcircuit's last activity was only a couple of hours ago) recently.  It's pretty galling for Bitcoinica customers to see Patrick posting in the Intersango thread but ignoring this one.

Should we ask him over there?

[ninjarobot]

From www.bitcoinica.com:

The thief stole from us not you. All withdrawal requests will be honored.

So, how is that coming along?

3 June 23:20: We're adding extra fields to the claims database (should be finished soon), we have received the funds from Tihan to make the initial payouts. Then once that's done, the first round of payments can be finished.

Seems to me there should be nothing holding you back:

• June 3: funds received.
• June 5: database done.
• June 7: authorization done.

Or is there anything else that Bitcoinica customers need to be aware of? If so please clarify.

Hopefully someone acting on proper legal representation can respond.

Yeah, Hopefully... Who is Bitcoinica's legal representation anyway?

Other questions:

• Is Zhou an Bitcoinica LP employee or not? Since the has access to claims, funds, AML and financial records he'd better be.
• Where is Donald in all of this? I assume he is acting CEO.
• Why is Bitcoinica not responding to user inquiries over email?
• Why was help.bitcoinica.com taken down? (as it was separate from the app)
• Why are updates not posted on the Bitcoinica website?
• When will the claims process close?
• How is Bitcoinica dealing with open positions?
• Why the secrecy?

[isis]

I believe I have posted sufficient information publicly in this thread about who I am to allow you to confirm my claim.
Do you dispute any of the facts I have posted?  Are the facts I have posted in any way insufficient to allow immediate processing of my claim.

If yes, what ones?
If not, then send the refund as per the information contained in my claim and the confirmation I have posted publicly in this forum, or explain why you are refusing to do so.  

Please be sure to consider your reply carefully.  Your response or lack thereof to this posting and all of your previous communication regarding this matter is being used as supporting evidence in a criminal complaint I am filing against you as an individual.

I am required at this point to state that "Any refund you provide will not prevent a criminal investigation from going forward, but may reflect favorably upon you.  Your co-operation is appreciated."

To the others at Bitcoinica, you may believe that the corporate veil will protect you from civil liability.  Registration in New Zealand as a Financial Services Provider, may make enjoining a class difficult.  I do not dispute either of these facts at this time.  However none of this protects you when you act in a criminal matter, act in bad faith or with malfeasance.  

In line with my previous post on the topic; At this point I am putting you on notice that I am actively filing complaints and will continue to pursue criminal charges against your entire organization.   The charges I am alleging are theft, wire fraud, identity fraud, investment fraud, misrepresentation of material facts, failure to return deposited or entrusted funds and racketeering.

My next post will be to inform the rest of the forum how they can begin the process of filing criminal complaints against Bitcoinica as well.

***
I have edited this post to remove accusations against Zhou, after further research I determined that I was incorrect and he appears to just be caught up in something bigger than himself.  I apologize.  See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg952523 for specifics. 
***

[proudhon]

I foresee this happening on a large scale. They will have to deal with 20 plus different attacks. This will not end well. At least they have a good fund for legal defense.

Well that settles it, then.  Nobody will get any money back.  Ok, everyone who intends to file legal claims on that side of the room.  Everyone else, move along, it's over.

[Mushoz]

Legal battles are to be expected with the way they are handling this.
I'm beginning to become so angry with the lack of communication.
This is just ridiculous. I've never been treated so badly by a company. A company that made good money
off of my trades. I'm seriously at a loss of words about this entire situation. Sigh

[Mushoz]

I foresee this happening on a large scale. They will have to deal with 20 plus different attacks. This will not end well. At least they have a good fund for legal defense.

Well that settles it, then.  Nobody will get any money back.  Ok, everyone who intends to file legal claims on that side of the room.  Everyone else, move along, it's over.

Yes, I agree. Or it will at least be significantly less due to money being spend on legal fights. And this all could have been prevented by
assigning someone to provide proper communication between the company and its customers.
The incompetence they have shown so far baffles me.

[Mushoz]

Cool story bro,

So where are the refunds?

Hopefully they get done soon I think. One of the points outlined today by Tihan was:

"This is what I need from each of you today:

1) A sign of life that the claims processing has begun -- an announcement to that effect and/or actually paying people back

..."

So things are moving forwards now after the hiatus. Most people involved are in agreement on what needs to be done.

So? Can we have an update on what happened? Tihan said he wanted there to be an announcement or to see people start getting paid back. I'm seeing neither.

It's unbelievable how little we hear from you guys. Communication is mandatory! And for the 1000th time:
How are open positions going to get settled?
We can't even hedge our own freaking positions due to a lack of communication from you guys.

I'm glad we still have Zhoutong giving us information. He's handling this a whole lot better than you guys. Too bad he's no longer in charge, or this mess would have been solved already.

[ninjarobot]

If direct refunds are still not an option, can you guys at least send the customer deposits into escrow until this mess is sorted out?

[zhoutong]

Zhou, I believe I have posted sufficient information publicly in this thread about who I am to allow you to confirm my claim.
Do you dispute any of the facts I have posted?  Are the facts I have posted in any way insufficient to allow immediate processing of my claim.

If yes, what ones?
If not, then send the refund as per the information contained in my claim and the confirmation I have posted publicly in this forum, or explain why you are refusing to do so.  

Please be sure to consider your reply carefully.  Your response or lack thereof to this posting and all of your previous communication regarding this matter is being used as supporting evidence in a criminal complaint I am filing against you as an individual.

I am required at this point to state that "Any refund you provide will not prevent a criminal investigation from going forward, but may reflect favorably upon you.  Your co-operation is appreciated."

To the others at Bitcoinica LP, you may believe that the corporate veil will protect you from civil liability.  Registration in New Zealand as a Financial Services Provider, may make enjoining a class difficult.  I do not dispute either of these facts at this time.  However none of this protects you when you act in a criminal matter, act in bad faith or with malfeasance.  

In line with my previous post on the topic; At this point I am putting you on notice that I am actively filing complaints and will continue to pursue criminal charges against your entire organization.   The charges I am alleging are theft, wire fraud, identity fraud, investment fraud, misrepresentation of material facts, failure to return deposited or entrusted funds and racketeering.

My next post will be to inform the rest of the forum how they can begin the process of filing criminal complaints against Bitcoinica as well.

I have no authority or ability to handle the refund for you. I was no longer the operator of Bitcoinica since April and I no longer own any financial interest of Bitcoinica since November last year. (I assume all operational responsibility until the take-over has happened. But after that, everyone knows that I'm not the sole operator of Bitcoinica.)

Also, keep in mind that Bitcoinica has always been held under a limited entity. It was held by xWaylab Inc., and then Bitcoinica LP (with a limited company as general partner). If your loss happened before January 2012, the responsible party would be xWaylab Inc., after that it would be Bitcoinica LP.

If you have submitted valid claims on Bitcoinica website, you should expect your refunds directly from Bitcoinica.

[zhoutong]

If direct refunds are still not an option, can you guys at least send the customer deposits into escrow until this mess is sorted out?

If you trust me personally, I can confirm that at the time of this post, at least 75% of total claimed value (even including the identified fake ones) is present in Bitcoinica's accounts.

The team has considered to use a legal settlor to resolve this issue, but some of us believe that the cost is too high for everyone and the settlor may not have the insight to identify fake claims accurately.

[proudhon]

If you have submitted valid claims on Bitcoinica website, you should expect your refunds directly from Bitcoinica.

That's the thing, Zhou, we don't expect refunds from Bitcoinica anymore.

[bulanula]

If you have submitted valid claims on Bitcoinica website, you should expect your refunds directly from Bitcoinica.

That's the thing, Zhou, we don't expect refunds from Bitcoinica anymore.

And what makes you think THAT

Don't lose faith !

The mugu is not supposed to lose faith. He still waits for this millions ...

[proudhon]

If direct refunds are still not an option, can you guys at least send the customer deposits into escrow until this mess is sorted out?

If you trust me personally, I can confirm that at the time of this post, at least 75% of total claimed value (even including the identified fake ones) is present in Bitcoinica's accounts.

The team has considered to use a legal settlor to resolve this issue, but some of us believe that the cost is too high for everyone and the settlor may not have the insight to identify fake claims accurately.

I guess what's unclear to me is why clearly not fake claims aren't being processed.  I filed a claim, then I sent an email with transaction dates and transaction IDs for the bitcoins I deposited into Bitcoinica from MtGox.  Additionally, those transaction happened several months ago and the bitcoins I had in bitcoinica were not in any positions.  I believe I was also verified on bitcoinica.  I can't imagine it being difficult to verify those details.  Not only that, I even fudged a bit on my claim in bitcoinica's favor.

I'm sure there are others with even more detailed information, and I simply don't understand why those claims haven't been acted upon, even if it's only to return %75 of the verified claim.