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Author Topic: [Payout Updates] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation  (Read 145796 times)
ninjarobot
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June 09, 2012, 09:50:12 PM
 #481

Zhou is assisting on the claims process he remembers information about some of the accounts which we simply do not

I'll take that as a NO - Zhou is not a Bitcoinica employee, but rather a volunteer (or unpaid contractor).

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No donald is not CEO of bitcoinica consultancy.

OK, so who took over as Bitcoinica CEO or MD when Zhou was relieved from that position on April 24 and Bitcoin Consultancy was brought in to take a dominant role in daily operations?

If anybody decides to file a criminal complaint you will effectively guarantee that it will be months or even years before anybody sees their funds.

Point taken, Although I don't care about WHEN, I care about IF.

I'm still trying to figure out the best course of action. I don't want to feed the lawyers, nor destroy peoples reputation. But I also don't like to be taken for a ride. So far there has been a lot of talk but very little action. Until something meaningful happens or a concrete action plan complete with dates is provided I will certainly consider joining legal action. (note: I am not talking about a criminal complaint)
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June 09, 2012, 09:50:56 PM
 #482

Phantomcircuit, and Genjix:

Thanks for the replies.  Keep the communication at this sort of level, and suspicions will die down.

There are a great number of questions that get asked on these Bitcoinica threads; the reason people are getting more and more aggravated is that those questions are ignored.  Just chip away: answer them slowly and steadily and we'll understand.

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June 09, 2012, 09:57:08 PM
 #483

I don't like this witch-hunt for Zhou Tong. Please stop it. He is still young and it is unfair to be too harsh. When I was young, I also did many stupid and seemingly unforgivable things I wish I didn't do. Is it really worth ruining the life of a child as retribution? That's so petty.

As for the funds. It is being worked on. Of course we want everyone paid back, but it isn't so easy. Consider that we have run an exchange for nearly 2 years now which has been operating with the utmost honesty and respect, having never been compromised dealing with comparable levels of funds as Bitcoinica. Although we are conservative and cautious in our actions, we acted slowly and deliberately to be sure there were no further disastrous mistakes. The legality of the payments had to be sorted out and checked first, and proper systems had to be developed to enable staff to collaborate and corroborate records to the most accurate possible.

Just under 10% of claims have been verified, and I'm waiting on those payments to be made out soon.

Why has any such information always to be torn out of your nose? Don't you realize that you are the one who needs to give at least daily updates to upset people out there? You complain about witchhunts but you yourself are responsible when people start shitstorms if you leave them with insuffcient information. Again, "Soon" is not enough. Is soon next month? Next year? Might as well repost your old entries.

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June 09, 2012, 10:25:50 PM
 #484

Quote
I don't like this witch-hunt for Zhou Tong. Please stop it. He is still young and it is unfair to be too harsh. When I was young, I also did many stupid and seemingly unforgivable things I wish I didn't do. Is it really worth ruining the life of a child as retribution? That's so petty.

This child you speak of, genjix, is in no way of having his future image tarnished due to this so-called witch-hunt, for I have serious reservations that this Zhou Tong even exist, at least in the form we're led to believe he does. Besides, if at the end of this episode Zhou Tong doesn't shine in a favorable light, he can always revert back to a host of other monikers to continue his life ambitions.

I do find it odd that it wasn't until I started posting about Tong Zhou, I mean Zhou Tong, that a couple members on this forum came out of the woodwork only now, this after having repeated request for them to do so and address important questions and concerns, ones of which asked of them repeatedly. Perhaps it was in part to get my posts below the fold. Then again, I did mention that I had plenty of tinfoil in stock.

That said, I will no longer bring up the Zhou Tong issue on this thread, although I do feel that it is quite relevant as to having the Bitcoiners know exactly who he is.

I would appreciate it if the admins of this forum don't remove my most recent posts from this thread either, for as I've already stated, in no uncertain terms, they'll prove quite relevant in the not too distant future.

I will start a thread in Off-topic to continue what I've already started here.

Please forgive me, all, if you feel that I have somehow tried to derail this thread. That was never my intention, and to make sure that that's not the case, I'll proceed on the route that I just expressed.

Thank you, all, for understanding my position.

~Bruno~

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June 09, 2012, 10:34:19 PM
 #485

So now he suddenly doesn't exist. Gimme some of what you are smoking, Gage, cause I would like to imagine that quite a few people no longer exist, especially Mr. President and all his cronies.

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June 09, 2012, 10:40:23 PM
 #486

So now he suddenly doesn't exist. Gimme some of what you are smoking, Gage, cause I would like to imagine that quite a few people no longer exist, especially Mr. President and all his cronies.

Okay, rjk! Quit (edited spelling) beating around the bush. Tell me exactly why you currently have the red-ass for me. No need to hold anything back, for this 52-year-old-fart will be able to handle it. I promise not to attack your answer, but simply accept it, then move on.

Thanks, bud.

~Bruno~
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June 09, 2012, 10:41:23 PM
 #487

So now he suddenly doesn't exist. Gimme some of what you are smoking, Gage, cause I would like to imagine that quite a few people no longer exist, especially Mr. President and all his cronies.

Okay, rjk! Quick beating around the bush. Tell me exactly why you currently have the red-ass for me. No need to hold anything back, for this 52-year-old-fart will be able to handle it. I promise not to attack your answer, but simply accept it, then move on.

Thanks, bud.

~Bruno~

I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

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June 09, 2012, 10:56:19 PM
 #488

A few things should be made very clear to everybody.

One of the first things we considered was having a court appointed liquidator.

It was decided that this was not the correct course of action for several reasons, first and foremost it would be significantly expensive and would be a significant delay.

Additionally we couldn't answer how they would treat bitcoin deposits.

If anybody decides to file a criminal complaint you will effectively guarantee that it will be months or even years before anybody sees their funds.

Seriously doing that is not the best way to get you funds back, indeed it is far from it.

As for isis100 there isn't even a record of your being a registered user and you have completely failed to forward any information you have to verify@bitcoinica.com

Again we are working on making this entire process be as fair as possible but the constant pressure from people who as far as i can tell are either just bored and entertaining themselves or attempting to scam funds is making the process take much longer than it should.

Since you seem to have more voice than Zhoutong, I am of the FIRST users of bitcoinica with a big balance. Why  has my refund not been processed yet?  I don't care if it delays the process a decade, if I do not see some of my money today, I will heavily invest in legal resources until I make sure that all of you pay for my troubles.

Again, my account is probably in the top TEN users with a big balance. Zhou knows exactly who I am. Pay me NOW.

Maria.
Matthew N. Wright
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June 09, 2012, 11:21:47 PM
 #489

A few things should be made very clear to everybody.

One of the first things we considered was having a court appointed liquidator.

It was decided that this was not the correct course of action for several reasons, first and foremost it would be significantly expensive and would be a significant delay.

Additionally we couldn't answer how they would treat bitcoin deposits.

If anybody decides to file a criminal complaint you will effectively guarantee that it will be months or even years before anybody sees their funds.

Seriously doing that is not the best way to get you funds back, indeed it is far from it.

As for isis100 there isn't even a record of your being a registered user and you have completely failed to forward any information you have to verify@bitcoinica.com

Again we are working on making this entire process be as fair as possible but the constant pressure from people who as far as i can tell are either just bored and entertaining themselves or attempting to scam funds is making the process take much longer than it should.

Since you seem to have more voice than Zhoutong, I am of the FIRST users of bitcoinica with a big balance. Why  has my refund not been processed yet?  I don't care if it delays the process a decade, if I do not see some of my money today, I will heavily invest in legal resources until I make sure that all of you pay for my troubles.

Again, my account is probably in the top TEN users with a big balance. Zhou knows exactly who I am. Pay me NOW.

Maria.


Shut up CoinExchanger / isis / Maria.

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June 09, 2012, 11:27:43 PM
 #490

So now he suddenly doesn't exist. Gimme some of what you are smoking, Gage, cause I would like to imagine that quite a few people no longer exist, especially Mr. President and all his cronies.

Okay, rjk! Quick beating around the bush. Tell me exactly why you currently have the red-ass for me. No need to hold anything back, for this 52-year-old-fart will be able to handle it. I promise not to attack your answer, but simply accept it, then move on.

Thanks, bud.

~Bruno~

I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Fair enough, rjk. Thank you for being straight-up with me.

Later, bud.

~Bruno~
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June 09, 2012, 11:39:40 PM
 #491

Hey,

I just went to  http://www.bitcoinica.com/ and found some marketing stuff, the one you usually find on expired domains that someone registered for advertising purposes and quick gain on people, that came for the old site.

Does that mean that the domain expired?

Unfortunately the previous domain registrar put incorrect DNSSEC records into com. which is causing DNS to break in strange ways.

Uh huh... just another chapter in this tale of incredibly bad luck for this whole debacle. Folks, it's going Option Six bigger than hell- there are no payments coming, there is no restitution being made- you have all been fleeced.

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ninjarobot
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June 09, 2012, 11:42:26 PM
 #492

Did Bitcoinica join a DRS (dispute resolution scheme) when it became a FSP in NZ?

If so, which one and what is your internal procedure to deal with complaints?

http://www.business.govt.nz/fsp/about-the-fspr/dispute-resolution-schemes

Quote
Most financial service providers (FSPs) who provide a service to retail clients must belong to an approved dispute resolution scheme (DRS) or the government-established reserve (dispute resolution) scheme, under section 48 of the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Act 2008 (FSPA).

FSPs must join a dispute resolution scheme before beginning their application for registration as a financial service provider.

Membership in a DRS is mandatory for FSPs who provide a service to retail clients, because it provides consumers with an avenue for redress when a dispute arises with their financial service provider. Membership in a scheme is a pre-requisite for registration as an FSP.

Customers (individuals, or small organisations with 19 or less full time equivalent employees - FTEs) of a financial service provider can access the dispute resolution scheme the FSP belongs to, free of charge.  However, the complainant must take their complaint to the FSP first.  FSPs need to have some internal procedures to deal with complaints.

All dispute resolution schemes will have rules about the complaints process, what the FSP has to do, and what complaints they cover.
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June 09, 2012, 11:43:26 PM
 #493

A few things should be made very clear to everybody.

One of the first things we considered was having a court appointed liquidator.

It was decided that this was not the correct course of action for several reasons, first and foremost it would be significantly expensive and would be a significant delay.

Additionally we couldn't answer how they would treat bitcoin deposits.

If anybody decides to file a criminal complaint you will effectively guarantee that it will be months or even years before anybody sees their funds.

Seriously doing that is not the best way to get you funds back, indeed it is far from it.

As for isis100 there isn't even a record of your being a registered user and you have completely failed to forward any information you have to verify@bitcoinica.com

Again we are working on making this entire process be as fair as possible but the constant pressure from people who as far as i can tell are either just bored and entertaining themselves or attempting to scam funds is making the process take much longer than it should.

Since you seem to have more voice than Zhoutong, I am of the FIRST users of bitcoinica with a big balance. Why  has my refund not been processed yet?  I don't care if it delays the process a decade, if I do not see some of my money today, I will heavily invest in legal resources until I make sure that all of you pay for my troubles.

Again, my account is probably in the top TEN users with a big balance. Zhou knows exactly who I am. Pay me NOW.

Maria.


Shut up CoinExchanger / isis / Maria.

The reason why Matthew N Wright wants me to shut up, is because he is involved with bitcoinica and according to him, he helped and advised Zhou in the process.

Matthew, you are included in the lawsuit. You knew about the shady deals going on behind the curtain and did not inform the community. How much money did you make by assisting this deal?

Maria.
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June 10, 2012, 12:09:11 AM
 #494

A few things should be made very clear to everybody.

One of the first things we considered was having a court appointed liquidator.

It was decided that this was not the correct course of action for several reasons, first and foremost it would be significantly expensive and would be a significant delay.

Additionally we couldn't answer how they would treat bitcoin deposits.

If anybody decides to file a criminal complaint you will effectively guarantee that it will be months or even years before anybody sees their funds.

Seriously doing that is not the best way to get you funds back, indeed it is far from it.

As for isis100 there isn't even a record of your being a registered user and you have completely failed to forward any information you have to verify@bitcoinica.com

Again we are working on making this entire process be as fair as possible but the constant pressure from people who as far as i can tell are either just bored and entertaining themselves or attempting to scam funds is making the process take much longer than it should.

Since you seem to have more voice than Zhoutong, I am of the FIRST users of bitcoinica with a big balance. Why  has my refund not been processed yet?  I don't care if it delays the process a decade, if I do not see some of my money today, I will heavily invest in legal resources until I make sure that all of you pay for my troubles.

Again, my account is probably in the top TEN users with a big balance. Zhou knows exactly who I am. Pay me NOW.

Maria.


Shut up CoinExchanger / isis / Maria.

The reason why Matthew N Wright wants me to shut up, is because he is involved with bitcoinica and according to him, he helped and advised Zhou in the process.

Matthew, you are included in the lawsuit. You knew about the shady deals going on behind the curtain and did not inform the community. How much money did you make by assisting this deal?

Maria.

No Maria, we pretty much all want you to shut up.
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June 10, 2012, 12:14:18 AM
 #495

Did Bitcoinica join a DRS (dispute resolution scheme) when it became a FSP in NZ?

Sorry for quoting myself but It appears Bitcoinica LP did not join an DRS:

http://www.business.govt.nz/fsp/app/ui/fsp/version/searchSummaryCompanyFSP/FSP207625/4.do?noReturn=true

Quote
Dispute resolution scheme: Not providing any financial services to retail clients

How is margin trading and providing currency accounts "not providing financial services to retail clients"?

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June 10, 2012, 12:15:30 AM
 #496

Hey,

I just went to  http://www.bitcoinica.com/ and found some marketing stuff, the one you usually find on expired domains that someone registered for advertising purposes and quick gain on people, that came for the old site.

Does that mean that the domain expired?

Unfortunately the previous domain registrar put incorrect DNSSEC records into com. which is causing DNS to break in strange ways.

Uh huh... just another chapter in this tale of incredibly bad luck for this whole debacle. Folks, it's going Option Six bigger than hell- there are no payments coming, there is no restitution being made- you have all been fleeced.

I'm on record in stating that I had faith in Option 6: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg944262#msg944262

Did Bitcoinica join a DRS (dispute resolution scheme) when it became a FSP in NZ?

If so, which one and what is your internal procedure to deal with complaints?

http://www.business.govt.nz/fsp/about-the-fspr/dispute-resolution-schemes

Quote
Most financial service providers (FSPs) who provide a service to retail clients must belong to an approved dispute resolution scheme (DRS) or the government-established reserve (dispute resolution) scheme, under section 48 of the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Act 2008 (FSPA).

FSPs must join a dispute resolution scheme before beginning their application for registration as a financial service provider.

Membership in a DRS is mandatory for FSPs who provide a service to retail clients, because it provides consumers with an avenue for redress when a dispute arises with their financial service provider. Membership in a scheme is a pre-requisite for registration as an FSP.

Customers (individuals, or small organisations with 19 or less full time equivalent employees - FTEs) of a financial service provider can access the dispute resolution scheme the FSP belongs to, free of charge.  However, the complainant must take their complaint to the FSP first.  FSPs need to have some internal procedures to deal with complaints.

All dispute resolution schemes will have rules about the complaints process, what the FSP has to do, and what complaints they cover.

(I currently have no proof for the following, but opt to include it for the lulz, in memory of Eduard Khil--RIP.)
Quote
The reason why Matthew N Wright wants me to shut up, is because he is involved with bitcoinica and according to him, he helped and advised Zhou in the process.

Matthew, you are included in the lawsuit. You knew about the shady deals going on behind the curtain and did not inform the community. How much money did you make by assisting this deal?

Maria.

Although I was saving this for a special occasion, I thought I would share some of it now. Don't be greedy, for there's plenty to go around.

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June 10, 2012, 12:27:13 AM
 #497

@ninjarobot

Bitcoinica is a regulated entity, verifiable by government records. We are one of the most legitimate businesses in Bitcoin community, by any standard.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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June 10, 2012, 12:31:26 AM
 #498

Still boggled by her unwillingness to provide an email/username. Even if they know who you are and they are playing games, the best way to call them out is to make them change hoops they want her to jump through. It would add to evidence in her favor should she pursue them through legal channels. I don't have much sympathy to Bitcoinica having to deal with such people though, their handling of their liability situation has been quite chaotic and not engendering of trust. Seems like they didn't dot their i's and cross their t's in terms of their NZ legal obligations.

It is very easy to believe they have done a runner with Bitcoinica users money. I mean first the people would have to go through NZ authorities, then even if they do win judgements there is probably no money actually held by the NZ Bitcoinica entity. Legal proceedings would then have to shift to whichever countries in which reside those who have current possession of Bitcoinica funds. Unless the missing funds are in the millions I don't think the NZ police and prosecutors will be of much help once you crack the Bitcoinica egg and find no yolk. Interesting that the only person known to reside in NZ that could be in financial crimes trouble appears to be a minor (at least during the time of the questionable activity)...

@ninjarobot

Wow, good job. http://www.business.govt.nz/fsp/app/ui/fsp/version/searchSummaryCompanyFSP/FSP207625/4.do?noReturn=true

Very questionable, good luck getting a judge to agree that random internet users aren't retail customers but instead "knowledgeable investors". Which I assume would be the response from Bitcoinica.
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June 10, 2012, 12:35:08 AM
 #499


The reason why Matthew N Wright wants me to shut up, is because he is involved with bitcoinica and according to him, he helped and advised Zhou in the process.

Matthew, you are included in the lawsuit. You knew about the shady deals going on behind the curtain and did not inform the community. How much money did you make by assisting this deal?

Maria.

First of all, "the community" isn't a collection of people to whom Matthew or anyone else owes any duty of disclosure.

Second of all, apparently you also knew of these "shady", behind the curtain deals and told no-one.

Third of all, this forum contains a permanent record of you seeking assistance to help people bypass Venezuela's laws regarding online purchases.  I doubt you're going to be suing anyone.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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June 10, 2012, 12:43:28 AM
 #500

sorry for reposting what i just posted in the newbie section but I seriously think we should work together and want my suggestions make heard!
Quote
A few things should be made very clear to everybody.

One of the first things we considered was having a court appointed liquidator.

It was decided that this was not the correct course of action for several reasons, first and foremost it would be significantly expensive and would be a significant delay.

Additionally we couldn't answer how they would treat bitcoin deposits.

If anybody decides to file a criminal complaint you will effectively guarantee that it will be months or even years before anybody sees their funds.

Seriously doing that is not the best way to get you funds back, indeed it is far from it.

As for isis100 there isn't even a record of your being a registered user and you have completely failed to forward any information you have to verify@bitcoinica.com

Again we are working on making this entire process be as fair as possible but the constant pressure from people who as far as i can tell are either just bored and entertaining themselves or attempting to scam funds is making the process take much longer than it should.

Since I am unable to respond to phantomcircuit in his original post:

The only thing I see is that you guys (Intersango crew, Zhou Tong, your Investors),  only seem to buy yourself time and became hopelessly entangled in contradictions. Genjix told us he finished working on the claims because the only thing keeping you from starting the refund process beeing internal legal competency issues which you couldn't specify further so far. And all out of the sudden the problem again is the eligibility of claims filed.
 What you also seem to have forgotten is your statement after the incident by offering only an 80% return or even less.
Quote
The thief stole from us not you. All withdrawal requests will be honored.
You had many chances to clarify the situation or publish official statements - looking back at the past chaotic weeks I have no hope that this will change. You threatening your customers not to go down the road to solve the problems legally doesn't put you in a more favourable light. I DO think it is the best thing that can happen to you - has anybody of you a clue about what kind of customers are involved here? The little insight I have already would scare the shit out of me (NO not all of them 15 year old kids gambling with their pocket money you could get seriously hurt).

I therefore propose all injured parties involved to get quickly organized to:
  • -firstly compose common demands for information which are expected to be answered to the point given a concrete deadline
  • -appoint a group representative whom Bitcoinica has to grant deeper insight to verify that (and how much) assets  are still there
  • -and lastly gather the community around major stakeholders who are willing to file a lawsuit by contributing expertise and offering financial support
  • -the pioneers taking action against Bitcoinica will deserve all our support because they lower the bar (especially financially) for those succeeding

I am very thankful for a follow-up of my suggestions in the original thread and ask for someone better connected in the community than me to gather all claimants. We might have to set up a tool to coordinate and vote for collective action. Who can quickly set this up (a google doc f.i.)?

In addition I ask you kindly to suppress your impulse for empty threats and defamation out of impotence. It just won't help. We all gambled and knew that. Its up to us all to find the one who doped the horse...

First step: collect pressing questions of general interest

Please participate and share - the more the merrier in terms of legimitation!

Collection of Questions:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am1BreCmW153dFhzbndPY3MwYmgwb2k2TkZudkRUemc

after I see people picking up my suggestions I will set up a deadline for the collection period to have a public vote on which questions will be passed on to be answered by Bitcoinica. Please don't hesitate to act - since the process is already running long enough!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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