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Author Topic: ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁  (Read 337392 times)
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March 06, 2015, 07:39:03 PM
 #781

Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.
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March 06, 2015, 07:56:41 PM
 #782

Lets not argue semantics on what is or isnt a ponzi, what really matters is what is or isnt a scam. To be a scam,  there has to be an intent to defraud. Even if AM/AMhash imo clearly should have disclosed what was going on, being asked not to by friedcat along with promises of a fix in the form of replacement hardware, is not an entirely unreasonable explanation and I do not (yet) believe the intend was to defraud their customers. The fact they didnt IPO anything after they were informed of the magical disappearing act, testifies to that.



This is bad news for AMHASH, and even worse news for unsuspecting customers.  I was really hoping FriedCat would produce the BE300S, it sounded promising!

I looked back at my ROI on my (very) small investment in AMHASH shares via Havelock, and I was surprised to see I made a 2% profit over 2 months.  I originally invested in mid-November, and I closed out my position in mid-January.  I was going to write a cloud mining review based on my experience, but looks like that would be pointless now.  I'm surprised AMHASH waited so long to let the public know.

I agree with others that this was more of an outright theft than a ponzi... but I must admit, you've been pretty accurate with your ponzi risk assessment so far!

cloudminingdirectory.com - Cloud Mining Reviews
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March 07, 2015, 01:28:38 AM
 #783

Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.

So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'

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March 07, 2015, 08:26:40 AM
 #784

So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Have you done the math? 1oz of silver is like $15.
Whether its bullshit or not, that never made any sense. Its like saying my house is "backed by gold", its got a gold plated chandelier somewhere.

Quote
Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'

Hashie at one point resold AMhash hashrate. I also considered AMhash "legit", even though I had always said hashie was a scam operation, and their previous 'gen 1' and later 'firecrackers' or whatever imagined mining products, where clearly non existent. They just used reselling of amhash to confuse customers and gain appearance of legitimacy. Worked well too.

When hashie collapsed, amhash did back their hashrate sold through hashie,  at least until this whole friedcat disappearing act hit and no on knows what to think.

FWIWI dont think AMhash set out to scam; I do think they made a huge mistake by not disclosing this earlier,  but I still believe they had honest intentions, but they were completely dependent on AM. Whatever happened at AM, I also do not believe it was a run of the mill heist, it makes no sense if you think about it, AM has already paid out many times more in dividends to investors then it ever collected, it has delivered on all its hardware sales afaik, and it could have stolen so much more if they had wanted to, by selling the widely anticipated BE300 chips and hashrate. I can only guess, but something like an escalated internal conflict between FC and the general manager resulted in the company breaking apart, perhaps with both people taking a crucial element (bitcoin wallet, asic design) and creating some sort of Mexican standoff.  Whatever the truth, its probably better than most fiction.
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March 07, 2015, 10:22:13 AM
 #785

I have responded Puppet in privete communication yesterday what I think of his 'revelations' Basically he does not care of the people who invested in our shares. So be it.

This is my answer on our main bitcointalk thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg10689024#msg10689024
Quote
I was just wondering when Puppet will show his true colors and start spreading FUD. I am really disgusted with you.
At some stage a few month ago I considered Puppet to be trusted and worthy member of the bitcoin community as he did a decent work endorsing scams. I have disclosed to him some of the details of our operations. He refused to check our hashrates then. I thought he could be trusted but now I can see how much damage he can make to our brand, my name and kryptologika users.

Kryptologika since the beginning has used many services always looking for the best prices. Before that we mined on our own equipment, at various stages used different providers. And we still do so. We mine, we p[ay dividends and we are not going to go belly up any time soon. I have communicated this to Puppet in private communication. But no, he wants some attention

I hope you all can judge for yourselves. Should this cause panic and major sell off.... well it is your decision.

Nothing has happened, I have nothing to communicate to our customers, business as usual.

PS

Puppet you're an idiot. You have no idea of how mining operations work. All that you see everywhere are scams, and ponzi schemes. I will not address in any way your accusations or revelations in the future as I am sure they will be more. Basically you're a danger to reliable and trustworthy businesses in mining. You just cannot be trusted.
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March 07, 2015, 10:26:25 AM
 #786

Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.

So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'
No, it is not bullshit. I posses physical silver in a form of coins, American Eagles and Philharmonikers.

I really cannot take responsibility for anything Puppet is saying. All I can say he is not privy any more to any details of our operations. Again there will be no official statement to our customers, we take Puppet's behaviour as a non event.
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March 07, 2015, 10:29:08 AM
 #787

Quote
Have you done the math? 1oz of silver is like $15.
Whether its bullshit or not, that never made any sense. Its like saying my house is "backed by gold", its got a gold plated chandelier somewhere.

This is how stupid Puppet is.
Find me 1 oz silver coins for $15  Wink
Good there are some people that can do the maths.

Actually I am more than happy with current situation to gain more publicity.
At our shop - business as usual.
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March 07, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
 #788

Downgraded Kryptologika to ponzi. Its a 'secret' passthrough of AMhash but the owner deems it unnecessary to tell this to his investors, even now that Amhash is pretty much gone.

Kryptologika may continue to pay out, but currently there is nothing backing the hashrate and the owner IMO is acting in bad faith, so I have to rate it a ponzi.

So the whole backed by silver act was a bullshit?

Amhash was supposed to be one of the most trusted operations. I remember when Hashie started to show signs of a scam people were defending it by saying: 'but it's backed by Amhash, so it has to be legit'
No, it is not bullshit. I posses physical silver in a form of coins, American Eagles and Philharmonikers.

I really cannot take responsibility for anything Puppet is saying. All I can say he is not privy any more to any details of our operations. Again there will be no official statement to our customers, we take Puppet's behaviour as a non event.
Should AMHash not come back, will you sell those silver coins in your possession to buy hashrate at another provider in order to cover your losses?
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March 07, 2015, 01:43:11 PM
 #789

Absolutely not. There is no need for it. We are trading as normal as our exposure to amhash is not detrimental.
Silver will be used when the shares loose profitability and users can choose: either to settle in BTC based on COMEX prices or request delivery.

Should you be interested further in Puppet's personal crusade against kryptologika please read more here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg10690028#msg10690028
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March 07, 2015, 03:20:10 PM
 #790

He refused to check our hashrates then.

No, I refused to base my assessment on non-public information that I was asked to keep secret. You should have let everyone check your hashrates, not just me,  then Id gladly have checked it and anyone could have double checked it. Not disclosing this information publicly would mean my assessment would require people to trust me, which is not much help, thats why I told you: make it public or I will ignore it.
I do not mind if you cause more panic regarding kryptologika. It is my users to judge whether to cash out or stay. Their choice.
Actually it's your choice. And you have chosen badly. I have to side with Puppet here, you can't be trusted until you publicly demonstrate you control your hashrate. It's so simple too, just check this page: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings&section=teams

I can demonstrate my hashrate for days, this doesn't necessarily make it sure fact that I control that hashrate or that they're my miners or that I can remain solvent, but it's more than you have done so far, and it only took us 15 minutes to set up. No need to write soap operas on the forum or accuse people of wrongdoing.
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March 07, 2015, 03:49:29 PM
 #791

From the start of this operation I was declaring limited transparency. Why? Because that's actually serves best our customers. I regret I disclosed anything to Puppet  then and I learned my lesson. If I start showing the hashrate I will be asked to do so every couple of days and if I refuse people like yourself will start shouting that kryptologika is a ponzi. For example I can buy large amount of hashrate on the market, show it to you sell shortly afterwards and go back to ponzi. Control of the hashrate is such an arbitrary thing... It tells you nothing.

So sorry but I must refuse to you and to all the others who no doubt will be asking for it in the future.

Some time ago I was pressed by someone who had the same arguments. I tried to explain that because of dropping diff dynamics running ponzi is not possible any more. And some week later we had this massive amount of collapses like lunamine, hashfast and others. So I believe an intelligent person understood that kryptologika wss reliable simply from the fact that it was on the market and we were reducing our prices at the time. Not much changed since.

Therefore I simply do not care. Fortunately this thread is not the most influential on the internet when it comes to bitcoin mining.
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March 07, 2015, 04:15:55 PM
 #792

From the start of this operation I was declaring limited transparency. Why? Because that's actually serves best our customers. I regret I disclosed anything to Puppet  then and I learned my lesson. If I start showing the hashrate I will be asked to do so every couple of days and if I refuse people like yourself will start shouting that kryptologika is a ponzi. For example I can buy large amount of hashrate on the market, show it to you sell shortly afterwards and go back to ponzi. Control of the hashrate is such an arbitrary thing... It tells you nothing.

So sorry but I must refuse to you and to all the others who no doubt will be asking for it in the future.

Some time ago I was pressed by someone who had the same arguments. I tried to explain that because of dropping diff dynamics running ponzi is not possible any more. And some week later we had this massive amount of collapses like lunamine, hashfast and others. So I believe an intelligent person understood that kryptologika wss reliable simply from the fact that it was on the market and we were reducing our prices at the time. Not much changed since.

Therefore I simply do not care. Fortunately this thread is not the most influential on the internet when it comes to bitcoin mining.
You do what you think it's best for your business. But don't be surprised if the market decides what's best for the customers. You have to compete with ponzis which offer very good profit rates, you can only do that in time.

As a potential customer, I see no reason for you not to disclose your hashrate constantly to your actual customers. You could mine on p2pool style pools, tell them the btcguild or other pool username (split hashrate to maintain security), pay them with fresh coins, show them monitoring facilities, a tour of the mine, etc. There are so many options to offer, even case by case for each client that asks.

Puppet, we trust you, prove this man's hashrate privately!
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March 07, 2015, 04:46:34 PM
 #793

No it is not best for my business. Not at this stage, I do not need to be verified by Puppet and the likes any more.
Besides you do not understand how it works, ask Puppet he was privy to this information.

Keep an eye on our thread if you are truly interested.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg10692155#msg10692155
At this stage however you can buy our overpriced shares on the free market only or in packages of 200, 500 and 1,000 for EUR. Or perhaps just wait for the prices to collapse following Puppets FUD! Fingers crossed Wink
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March 07, 2015, 05:59:53 PM
 #794

How is AMPonziHash not downgraded yet? I see it as 0-7 still...regardless of situation they have been a Ponzi for months.

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March 07, 2015, 06:33:19 PM
 #795

NOW LISTEN TO THIS:
i feel i also have the right to tell what i think about puppet''s rating, and i think it is corrupted or at least biased.
amhash should be rated:

1. o.5 points (no user selectable pool)
2. 1 (rockminer has no equipment and asicminer is laughable - is it even a company lol, it is rather a person of semi-anonymous identity)
3. 1 (i did not see any picture that holds a note it belongs to amhash - it can be pictures of any farm) - plz correct me if i am wrong on this one Smiley
4. 1 (lol, it is beyond stupidity, its not even a criteria, like, of course, if you sell in batches or if you claim huge hashrate at once in the first place - you are more legit  Grin, so its 1 cause you give it for everyone else.)
6. 1 (real amhash operators ARE anonymous)
7. 1 (unless puppet tells me how to exit now)
8. 1 (is a blatant lie by puppet - just take a look at the 1st page on amhash thread - friedcat says "3. Guaranteed profit".)

so amhash should score 6.5 = ponzi/scam, and i lost money because of you puppet, not a big amount but your rating causes more damage than it helps, especially if people trust you.
what i wanted to say - if people are to trust puppet - you people keep in mind that one incorrect rating causes 100x more damage than all the correct ones will save you, because you'll not need an advice on the obvious either way and you may be misled on the ones that really matter...
puppet i trusted you without much research and i was burnt because of your corrupt rating, i will never trust you anymore.
p.s. if you dont mind disclosing private communications with you from cloudmining operator - please disclose communications between you and amhash, i think everybody would be interested now.

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March 07, 2015, 07:03:05 PM
 #796

Well Pup.... someone is shitting in your nest Wink
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March 07, 2015, 07:48:05 PM
 #797

Quote
puppet i trusted you without much research and i was burnt because of your corrupt rating,

My list is no substitute for your own due diligence and risk analysis, nor did I ever claim it was. You should have tried reading the disclaimer:

Quote
Disclaimer

being legit does not equal being a good investment. By and large, cloud mining has not been profitable historically, and I dont expect it  will.  I do not recommend you invest in (cloud) mining at all, but if you do, at least invest in a company that will actually contribute to securing the blockchain and is not extremely likely to just steal your money.

Also, being rated as legit here doesnt guarantee you anything. All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate. It doesnt guarantee they wont scam you, and it certainly doesnt imply anything about profitability.

Amhash did provide the reasonable evidence and the score I gave was fully warranted based on the criteria as I defined them. If you interpreted that somehow as meaning zero risk, you have yourself to blame for that. I couldnt have foreseen what happened any more than I could have foreseen a meteorite striking their building.

But I will say this: I offered to take bets on each of the 6-7 point scams that they would scam their customers, and each of the 0-1 points that they would not. Had anyone taken me up on those bets, I would so far have won 20 out of 21 bets.  Who's got a better average?
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March 07, 2015, 07:51:09 PM
 #798

As for this:

Quote
p.s. if you dont mind disclosing private communications with you from cloudmining operator - please disclose communications between you and amhash, i think everybody would be interested now.

I hereby give permission to the mods to publish any and all PMs between me and amhash. The only thing I ever discussed with them was prior to hashie's collapse, how they could guarantee the hashrate purchased through hashie, since I knew hashie was a scam and would run off. Thats it.
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March 07, 2015, 07:54:39 PM
 #799

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puppet i trusted you without much research and i was burnt because of your corrupt rating,

My list is no substitute for your own due diligence and risk analysis, nor did I ever claim it was. You should have tried reading the disclaimer:

Quote
Disclaimer

being legit does not equal being a good investment. By and large, cloud mining has not been profitable historically, and I dont expect it  will.  I do not recommend you invest in (cloud) mining at all, but if you do, at least invest in a company that will actually contribute to securing the blockchain and is not extremely likely to just steal your money.

Also, being rated as legit here doesnt guarantee you anything. All it shows is that said company has provided reasonable evidence it is a real company and your investment is backed by actual hashrate. It doesnt guarantee they wont scam you, and it certainly doesnt imply anything about profitability.

Amhash did provide the reasonable evidence and the score I gave was fully warranted based on the criteria as I defined them. If you interpreted that somehow as meaning zero risk, you have yourself to blame for that. I couldnt have foreseen what happened any more than I could have foreseen a meteorite striking their building.

But I will say this: I offered to take bets on each of the 6-7 point scams that they would scam their customers, and each of the 0-1 points that they would not. Had anyone taken me up on those bets, I would so far have won 20 out of 21 bets.  Who's got a better average?


you just dont include enough Smiley because if you did you could claim you were right on 100 out of 101, but the thing is that on the only one that was important YOU WERE WRONG. nobody doubts hashnest is legit and all those other are so obvious its even funny to rate them.  Wink
of course you can write what you want, not that its relevant, but you voice your opinion in other threads so i decided to voice in yours.

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March 07, 2015, 07:58:21 PM
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you just dont include enough Smiley because if you did you could claim you were right on 100 out of 101, but the thing is that on the only one that was important YOU WERE WRONG. nobody doubts hashnest is legit and all those other are so obvious its even funny to rate them.  Wink

So you knew hashie, pbmining etc where ponzi's all along? Good on you, but let me tell you precious few people believed me at the time. And its those people I tried reaching with this 101.

As for nobody doubting hashnest, tell me, how is it more legit than amhash was?

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