▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ Cloudmining 101 (ponzi risk assessment) ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

[Puppet]

Cointellect has a pool : stratum+tcp://66.55.92.73:8000. You don't have to use the miner they offer on their site, but you can point your own miner on it. They have a live-feed published of one of their datacenters a few days ago: http://dc.cointellect.com/

That live feed is actually neat (Im not being cynical). Just a shame I cant tell if those are file servers in those cabinets or miners.
At least they have some hardware apparently. Are there no pictures?

The pool IP doesnt tell me anything though. Id need pool stats and block signatures.

I was wondering if you really try to talk with people of these companies on phone and try to get the information you need or that you only decide if it's a ponzi or not based on what you see on their sites or rumors you heard.

I dont call them, I usually do reach out to them via the forum, but as Ive explained a few times, I base myself solely on publicly available information for the very reason I want everyone to be able to double check my findings and do their own due dilligence. IOW, I shouldnt have to call them to get answers to these questions. But if there is something I missed, Im more than happy to adjust the ratings. Not sure yet if what you provided warrants that just yet.

Btw Genesis Mining might be legit, but is absolutely not profitable.

I deliberately ignore profitability questions.  A scam can easily appear as profitable as the scammer wants it to appear, thats not something that should be balanced against the fact they are a scam and may not pay a penny after x weeks. So I only try to ascertain how likely it is a given company will comply with its contract, not how (un)profitable those contracts might be.

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[Puppet]

Added bit-x.com (thanks to mabsark for pointing it out) which have been confirmed by bitfury as being their (only) reseller - for just 1PH:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=896350.0

Not sure what that implies for cex.io

Upgraded cointellect rating based on livestream and stats in contract manager.

[marcotheminer]

Added bit-x.com (thanks to mabsark for pointing it out) which have been confirmed by bitfury as being their (only) reseller - for just 1PH:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=896350.0

Not sure what that implies for cex.io

Upgraded cointellect rating based on livestream and stats in contract manager.

Why do they have the number 4 alongside their name? They state that have a maximum of 1PH at the moment no?

Curious as to why it would mean anything to cex.io?

[syncsam]

Great thread puppet, I think more people need to read this, and your rating system is fair and makes a lot of sense

I bought into pbmining before I realised it was a ponzi, but luckily I was an early bird so I made a little profit, but if I had seen this, there is no way i would have bought anything.

[Puppet]

Why do they have the number 4 alongside their name? They state that have a maximum of 1PH at the moment no?

Yes, but at this time, I cant see or verify how much of those 1PH they sold, so they could be doing fractional reserve mining without anyone noticing.

Curious as to why it would mean anything to cex.io?

cex.io used to be where bitfury sold their hashrate, or so I thought.

[Ghai]

Cointellect has a pool : stratum+tcp://66.55.92.73:8000. You don't have to use the miner they offer on their site, but you can point your own miner on it. They have a live-feed published of one of their datacenters a few days ago: http://dc.cointellect.com/

That live feed is actually neat (Im not being cynical). Just a shame I cant tell if those are file servers in those cabinets or miners.
At least they have some hardware apparently. Are there no pictures?

The pool IP doesnt tell me anything though. Id need pool stats and block signatures.

I was wondering if you really try to talk with people of these companies on phone and try to get the information you need or that you only decide if it's a ponzi or not based on what you see on their sites or rumors you heard.

I dont call them, I usually do reach out to them via the forum, but as Ive explained a few times, I base myself solely on publicly available information for the very reason I want everyone to be able to double check my findings and do their own due dilligence. IOW, I shouldnt have to call them to get answers to these questions. But if there is something I missed, Im more than happy to adjust the ratings. Not sure yet if what you provided warrants that just yet.

Btw Genesis Mining might be legit, but is absolutely not profitable.

I deliberately ignore profitability questions.  A scam can easily appear as profitable as the scammer wants it to appear, thats not something that should be balanced against the fact they are a scam and may not pay a penny after x weeks. So I only try to ascertain how likely it is a given company will comply with its contract, not how (un)profitable those contracts might be.

There are a few more pictures on their sites, also by night, but I don't think they give a much clearer image anyway. About profitablity, the most obvious scam imo, is the scam that promises you a x or y amount, but when you buy a contract does not pay the amounts promised. One of the worst examples I have seen is https://cloudhashing.com/.

Ponzi's are harder to prove, also because a company (any company) can go broke at any time for numerous reasons. I think sometimes the bitcoin community is a bit too focused on calling companies ponzi's. Of course transparency is much needed, but also not easy to come by on the internet. Any picture can be fake, you can't visit companies because they are on the other side of the world, cryptocurrency are quite anonymous. All reasons why it is hard to determine if you are dealing with a legit company or not. In my opinion the best way to invest in cloudhashing is always to try with small amounts of money, see if they keep promises and if the payouts don't lower too fast and reinvest after you get break-even. Always spread your risks and never invest more than you can afford to lose. Even if they are ponzi's you can still earn money that way.

[Grinder]

Puppet: you say that the intention is to let other people verify your findings, but I find that's very hard to do. There are no links to the documentation you use, so I can't verify it. For instance when I look up hashprofit.com they are behind Whoisguard, but you have not given them a 6. I suggest changing the format so that you show all numbers, but use red when you think they fail a test and a link to documentation (for instance an external web page or a message in this thread which you control and can update) if they don't. It might useful to put a link to documentation which explains why they fail a test too, sometimes.

[Puppet]

There are a few more pictures on their sites, also by night, but I don't think they give a much clearer image anyway. About profitablity, the most obvious scam imo, is the scam that promises you a x or y amount, but when you buy a contract does not pay the amounts promised. One of the worst examples I have seen is https://cloudhashing.com/.

I dont know what happened with cloudhashing specifically, so Im not going to comment on it, but any company that complies to my list if criteria, even if it breaks its contract, it can be held accountable. Which is more than can be said of the majority of anonymous scams listed.

Ponzi's are harder to prove, also because a company (any company) can go broke at any time for numerous reasons. I think sometimes the bitcoin community is a bit too focused on calling companies ponzi's. Of course transparency is much needed, but also not easy to come by on the internet. Any picture can be fake, you can't visit companies because they are on the other side of the world, cryptocurrency are quite anonymous. All reasons why it is hard to determine if you are dealing with a legit company or not. In my opinion the best way to invest in cloudhashing is always to try with small amounts of money, see if they keep promises and if the payouts don't lower too fast and reinvest after you get break-even. Always spread your risks and never invest more than you can afford to lose. Even if they are ponzi's you can still earn money that way.

I wholeheartedly disagree. First of all, investing in a ponzi makes you complicit in the scam, as your goal of making a profit depends on luring in new victims that will not profit. Thats not how I would want to earn a satoshi. It also funds and enables the scam, while the chances of profiting are actually extremely slim. Very few ponzi's will live long enough.

Secondly, "testing" a cloudmining service doesnt tell you anything. Every well executed scam will pay perfectly. Until the day they pull the plug.

Lastly, spreading risk only ensures you will lose money because there are far more scams than there are legitimate services.

IN short, your strategy of spreading and testing and not asking too many questions is exactly what ponzi scammers want you to do. If instead of that, people demanded credible proof before sending them a satoshi, these scams would quickly be a thing of the past.

[Puppet]

Puppet: you say that the intention is to let other people verify your findings, but I find that's very hard to do. There are no links to the documentation you use, so I can't verify it. For instance when I look up hashprofit.com they are behind Whoisguard, but you have not given them a 6. I suggest changing the format so that you show all numbers, but use red when you think they fail a test and a link to documentation (for instance an external web page or a message in this thread which you control and can update) if they don't. It might useful to put a link to documentation which explains why they fail a test too, sometimes.

Fair point; this started as a brief expose and quickly grew in to something thats becoming hard to maintain. I often dont remember myself why I gave a certain score, but I guess there is an upside to that, it allows or forces me or anyone to reexamine the data, which may not be a bad thing.

As for hashprofit, there is an address and matching phone number on their site:
https://hashprofit.com/en/contact/

I admit thats not exactly overwhelming evidence, which is also why the added text reads "address/identity is unconfirmed", but at least it allows anyone in cyprus to go there and verify if they exist. Ive not heard anyone try that and report there is nothing there, so I can only assume its a valid address until proven otherwise.

[Grinder]

As for hashprofit, there is an address and matching phone number on their site:
https://hashprofit.com/en/contact/

According to Google Maps there is no street with that name in the area they say it should be. There is one in an area called Mesa Geitonia 2-3 kilometers to the west, but as it stands the address seems invalid.

Edit: After searching for the street without "Avenue" Google finds it. Google street view does not seem to be available.

[krunox123]

Can you review Bit-x too?
https://bit-x.com/

[Ghai]

There are a few more pictures on their sites, also by night, but I don't think they give a much clearer image anyway. About profitablity, the most obvious scam imo, is the scam that promises you a x or y amount, but when you buy a contract does not pay the amounts promised. One of the worst examples I have seen is https://cloudhashing.com/.

I dont know what happened with cloudhashing specifically, so Im not going to comment on it, but any company that complies to my list if criteria, even if it breaks its contract, it can be held accountable. Which is more than can be said of the majority of anonymous scams listed.

Ponzi's are harder to prove, also because a company (any company) can go broke at any time for numerous reasons. I think sometimes the bitcoin community is a bit too focused on calling companies ponzi's. Of course transparency is much needed, but also not easy to come by on the internet. Any picture can be fake, you can't visit companies because they are on the other side of the world, cryptocurrency are quite anonymous. All reasons why it is hard to determine if you are dealing with a legit company or not. In my opinion the best way to invest in cloudhashing is always to try with small amounts of money, see if they keep promises and if the payouts don't lower too fast and reinvest after you get break-even. Always spread your risks and never invest more than you can afford to lose. Even if they are ponzi's you can still earn money that way.

I wholeheartedly disagree. First of all, investing in a ponzi makes you complicit in the scam, as your goal of making a profit depends on luring in new victims that will not profit. Thats not how I would want to earn a satoshi. It also funds and enables the scam, while the chances of profiting are actually extremely slim. Very few ponzi's will live long enough.

Secondly, "testing" a cloudmining service doesnt tell you anything. Every well executed scam will pay perfectly. Until the day they pull the plug.

Lastly, spreading risk only ensures you will lose money because there are far more scams than there are legitimate services.

IN short, your strategy of spreading and testing and not asking too many questions is exactly what ponzi scammers want you to do. If instead of that, people demanded credible proof before sending them a satoshi, these scams would quickly be a thing of the past.

The problem though is that you have no hard evidence they are ponzi's, nor have I. A few signs are not enough. For example there are very trustworthy companies that also use referrals to advertise, most companies have secrets to protect their ideas from competitors, pictures say absolutely nothing, bad reviews can be written by competitors. 

I just treat like my normal investments, research, test and spread. Btw I do ask a lot of questions usually and I try to phone them even if they have no phonenumber published (a helpdesk is the least a company should have), I ask other people how their experiences are and read a lot . If you don't take a risk in investing, you will certainly gain nothing. The higher the risk, the more you can earn usually. That's just how investing works. Since I am already investing in many various companies over 15 years, I can tell you my profits are really not so bad and yes sometimes, you encounter some bad luck, that is why spreading is essential.

[Puppet]

The problem though is that you have no hard evidence they are ponzi's, nor have I.

Thats because its impossible to prove a negative. One can not prove that there is NO hardware, just like one can not prove there is no teapot orbiting the sun or that unicorns do not exist. Its trivially easy to prove the positive if its real though, so the burden of proof lays with the claimant, in this case, the cloudmining service that claims to have the hashrate they are selling.

A few signs are not enough.

I agree . But in the other sense than you meant it. If cloudmining services offer less proof of their legitimacy than there is proof for unicorns, Id rather stake my money on the existence of unicorns.

If you don't take a risk in investing, you will certainly gain nothing.

Bitcoin by itself is already risky and potentially lucrative enough. Trying to invest bitcoins makes as little sense to me as trying to invest gold.
FWIW, Ive been around bitcoin for a fair bit longer than you appear to be; in all my time, I have seen ONE bitcoin denominated investment that overall returned substantially more BTC to its investors than it collected (AM). Well maybe two if you count satoshidice, even if that was hardly substantial. . And thats out of 100's if not 1000's of iPO's and investment vehicles and scams of all kind. Good luck spreading your risk in this minefield.

[eneloop]

How is cointellect able to offer cc payments? (For the smaller contracts only.) Is it easy as that to get a cc processor?

[dezoel]

please review ltcgear.com it is legit or not?

[Puppet]

ltcgear and bit-x are both listed. Common guys, the list is getting long, but not so long you cant find those.

In other news, looks like cloudmining.website is running on its last legs. It stopped automatic payments and enabled 100% reinvestment for everyone without even asking:

We have launched the settings page. Now you can hold your payment and re-invest automatically. Both these features have been turned on for all existing customers as well as new customers. If you want to turn them off, you can do that immediately from the settings page. Re-investment will take place everyday starting from coming Monday.

Thats pretty desperate.

[Cablez]

In other news, looks like cloudmining.website is running on its last legs. It stopped automatic payments and enabled 100% reinvestment for everyone without even asking:

We have launched the settings page. Now you can hold your payment and re-invest automatically. Both these features have been turned on for all existing customers as well as new customers. If you want to turn them off, you can do that immediately from the settings page. Re-investment will take place everyday starting from coming Monday.

Thats pretty desperate.

Haha.........classic.  They never learn.

[bitcoinmind]

In other news, looks like cloudmining.website is running on its last legs. It stopped automatic payments and enabled 100% reinvestment for everyone without even asking:

We have launched the settings page. Now you can hold your payment and re-invest automatically. Both these features have been turned on for all existing customers as well as new customers. If you want to turn them off, you can do that immediately from the settings page. Re-investment will take place everyday starting from coming Monday.

Thats pretty desperate.

Haha.........classic.  They never learn.

What that mean? Because they put there some settings this mean that they will go bankrupt?

[sickfancy]

"ltcgear               1+3+4+5+6          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (info welcome) "

Who's the asic vendor that endorsed ltcgear?


This is a good informative thread.

[Puppet]

"ltcgear               1+3+4+5+6          => 5/7 = (very) suspicious (info welcome) "

Who's the asic vendor that endorsed ltcgear?

I assume they endorse themselves, since they sell hardware too.