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the only way i can see bitcoinATM work financially is this:
they employ 50 franchises (1 per US state) each franchisee pays for the licence of that state under the groups company name of bitcoinATM.
that franchisee then owns the rights to trade, maintain and work within the borders of that state on behalf of bitcoinATM.
bitcoinATM then send them a machine/bunch of machines and set the rates of pay (price above spot) so that the franchisee can see a nice income to recoup its 'buy in licence' and the bitcoinatm headoffice gets enough income to see profit after the bitcoinATM machine costs.
compared to:
having just one company buying all the licences and having to travel the entire width and height of USA for maintenance, installs etc is more expensive venture to attempt
the other plausible option is to speak to existing ATM vendors to add a extra feature on their platform for Bitcoin.
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I didn't actually know that, is fiat just an acronym then?
no its not officially an accronym. its just a sweet way of explaining fiat with only 4 words that people will remember What is exactly fiat money?
i know your just playing but the best way to answer the question for noobs is Federally Insured And Taxed Good grief dude - do you ever say anything that's true? The term derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be"). http://tinyurl.com/FiatDefinedi never said thats the TRUE FACT of the history of fiat. but its the fastest way to explain the difference between fiat and lets say........ bitcoins. some of you guys take "comments" "opinions" and "jokes" and seem to some how think everything on this forum is legal fact. and then knitpick it as if this forum has to comply by a code of conduct that lawyers have to obide by if your looking for a small bit of guideance then fine use the information here to guide you in the right direction. but if you want the literate facts and legal opinion. then put your money where your mouth is and speak to IRS/FINCEN/government. Fiat is indeed federally insured and taxed. so my statement is not false. i am jsut sorry that i did not write a 500 page legal dcument about the last few centuries of fiat, to please the knit pickers. i guess social skills are lacking to realise this is a forum and not a encyclopedia. some people need to take a break from the forums and have a coffee to chill out. seems they rely on this forum for legal fact, just a little too much. it should be known by now that forums should be taken with a pinch of salt and everyone should do some due diligence beyond whats been wrote. and because of this.. i shall put in a footer |
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Any Ideas? Yes. Don't devalue your wedding with stupid gimmicks. agreed. if the wedding guests dont already have bitcoin, and the end result is you having goods, then there is no purpose for giving the guests more of a headache trying to convince them to buy bitcoins purely to then spend on a product. at the moment most people can still use fiat to buy goods cheaper direct. adding the purchase bitcoin fee's, the time to learn about wallets, the fee's of bitmit and the risks of bitmit (just like ebay risks) of non delivery by scamming sellers. it is not worth it.. maybe the only possible way to introduce them to bitcoins is to have the shopping wish list. or if they want to send you a cheque / money. you would like to receive funds in bitcoin.. going from fiat ->bitcoin -> goods is still not practical or economical just yet. and would make people decide bitcoins are not worth the hype. wait until it is practical and economical before pushing user adoption. for now concentrate on merchant adoption |
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What is exactly fiat money?
i know your just playing but the best way to answer the question for noobs is Federally Insured And Taxed |
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Edit: this is the case by double reading the OP's thread: if you put money into dwolla from a MTGOX hoping it to arrive at your bank account. and as you say Dwolla cancelled the transaction. then Dwolla would put the money back into your MTGOX. Dwolla said it was on MTgox end because they sent the transaction. if mtgox sent the money to Dwolla. MTGox cant just vaccuum, drag, claw it back as a standard procedure. Dwolla cancelled the transfer, so the standard procedure would be for Dwolla to GIVE it back to MTGOX. ensure Dwolla sent the funds. and ask for proof so that you can contact MTGox with the proof so thy can investigate it. if Dwolla cannot provide you direct proof. they can most definitely show their partner MTGOX the bank statement privately behind closed doors, on your behalf. i suggest keeping on at Dwolla, they obviously received the money from MTGOX. to then be able to cancel the transaction from moving on any further |
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hmm should i reply to a out of context knit picker.. nope
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OP obviously a GPU miner and maybe butt hurt after he spent $300 on a 7000 series GPU outputting 300mhash, and now people are able to buy USB miners 3rd of the price to compete against those last few GPU miners that are still in the game.
my suggestion is dont spend $300 on a GPU. buy 3xUSB miners. atleast your hash rate per dollar will be higher, and electricity bill will be lower.
or rent hash power from an ASIC miner if you cant afford to buy one in full
heres some maths.
buy 10 units totalling 3,400 mhash. revenue 2.5BTC this month.
buy 11th unit next month to compensate a 10% rise in difficulty. and pocket 1.5BTC
rinse and repeat for a constant never ending 1.5BTC income per month.
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BitCoin is a crypto-currency, its creation and transfer is based on an open source cryptographic protocol and is not managed by any central authority, simply put BitCoin is a decentralized digital currency.
Bitcoin uses a PTP (peer-to-peer) technology to operate, BitCoins can be transferred Worldwide instantly with almost no processing fees since there is no intermediary and the coins are transferred from person to person, all transaction are final and don’t require your PC to be online when you receive them.
How to create new BitCoins ?
New bitcoins are created by the network through “mining“, in a process that is similar to a continuous raffle draw, mining nodes on the network are awarded bitcoins each time they find the solution to a certain mathematical problem (and thereby create a new block). The reward for solving a block is automatically adjusted so that roughly every four years of operation of the Bitcoin network, half the amount of bitcoins created in the prior 4 years are created.
How to get BitCoins?
There are several ways you can get BitCoins, you can receive them as payment, you can buy them with regular currency, mine them or even get them online by completing offers, viewing videos, affiliate programs or completely free from bitcoin “Faucets”.
BitCoin?? - Capital C, no thanks
nearly every transaction seems to want atleast 0.0001BTC fee.. try rephrasing to very low fee's, as its worded like only 1 out of 100 transactions request a fee.
try: individuals within the network - makes it sound less like everyone mines automatically without choice
continuous raffle draw makes it sound like its random. the actual fact is the fastest machine wins. EG if everyone solomined. GPU miners would get no chance. ASIC miners would solve every block. its not a chance based game where everyone has an equal chance (raffle)
The reward for solving a block is automatically adjusted so that roughly every four years of operation of the Bitcoin network, half the amount of bitcoins created in the prior 4 years are created.
try:
The reward for solving a block started as 50BTC in 2009 and the reward per block halves every 4 years, ensuring a finite supply of 21 million coins eventually.
try:you can receive them as payment from offering goods or services as a merchant, business or trader - gives it more emphases, as there seems to be a lack of merchant adoption.
using only 6 words to highlight merchant possibilities.. then 12 words to explain how to get them free, physcologically leaves people thinking they don't have much value try emphasising the business proposition more and condensing the free giveaway explanation
i say all of this from going round speaking to many merchants, users and investors. and having many different 'sales pitches which limit the doubts in peoples minds by how the message first comes across.
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What exactly does he mean?
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned |
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going by the maths of approx 9btc mining per day in february and slowly declining to 1btc per day in june the 700btc total would only just be possible if the machines were constantly mining since mid february order date.
i do believe that the machines were pre-mined before shipping. but i would more then likely put it as a april/may date when they had finished products to begin pre-mining. netting them about 3btc a day in may and from current calculations just over 1btc per day in june. = under 150btc total. as a more accurate figure.
still worth around $15,000 per person ordering in batch #2(february)
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Bitcoin is the first a global commodity that is available to anyone with internet access. It is able to function as the first stateless world currency. Cryptographic technologies are going to bring on globalization in a way that most of us didn't expect, and the truth is that the reality is ours to construct. Bitcoin is so much bigger than any single group that uses it. Find your faith and embrace the possibilities.  that would have been the best bitcoin speech i seen. if used in the future though can you please change the word commodity for the words asset or currency. (you choose) as a commodity is a raw material that has a world wide standard of quality, used in the production of other materials. then you will have a great and accurate speech |
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I'm afraid I've lost my faith in Bitcoin. Somebody save me..
Never loose faith! Bitcoin does not need faith but numbers  Bitcoin does not need faith, but needs acceptance accepting that its a currency and not a pipe dream of coders accepting of coins by merchants to increase usefulness accepting that it will never overtake a government currency, but can work along side it, without government control accepting that government currency is not the only way to trade |
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goldman sachs is a commercial investment bank not a central authority bank right?
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is it just me or is this the sort of reply a computer program would come up with?
Umm.. I'm not a computer program, but interesting observation. ok now can you answer the other half of my last comment please. I believe that central banks can buy/sell bitcoins in volume to manipulate the price, as they do with precious metals certificates. Banks have no control over physical metals. central banks play about with investments using peoples money. they are only allowed to play about with peoples money on certain legal exchanges such as the NYSE LSE etc. they cant just withdraw peoples money, throw it into dwolla/moneygram to then play the mtgox market. BUT private investment companies CAN play up and manipulate MTGOX/Bitstamp |
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I'm afraid I've lost my faith in Bitcoin. Somebody save me..
thats because you are reading the high price which is always volatile.. check out the monthly low price.. you will see there is a constant rise. the low price is more of the indicator of true value and growth indicators.. the high price is just pure speculation and should be ignored for long term investors  |
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I'm real curious as to the logic of how a "Liberty Dollar" is legally different from a "Linden Dollar", a Hong Kong Dollar, a Canadian Dollar, or an Australian Dollar.
liberty dollar was a physical coin that was put into circulation as a counterfeit of a US dollar coin. it held the $ symbol etc which is trade marks of government. linden dollars are ingame credits hong kong dollar canadian dollar australian dollar are bank notes or coins of the country mentioned in the names. the design of the coins/bank notes are tailored to that country to make it obvious to which country they are owned by. which helps to show which country they are legal tender of. EG you cant pay a court fine in US with hong kong dollars as the hong kong dollars are legal tender of hong kong , not the US.. and vice versa if owned by a government copying or selling a replica without authorisation is called counterfeiting and illegal. (EG liberty dollar replicating US Dollar) if only the liberty dollar used an L symbol instead of $, then it would have been more regarded as monopoly money or fresh new currency as oppose to a US dollar coin |
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It doesn't work that way. The regulations are being aimed at "virtual currency." You would just be trading one virtual currency for another one. As the regulatory engine ramps up to full speed the legislation passed will become more all encompassing eventually crushing all forms of competition.
ill paste you this you may have read it already. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242060.msg2574555#msg2574555bitcoin is not owned by any country so bitcoin cant be regulated by a country at the moment. the only thing that can be regulated are the FIAT exchanges and the businesses that hold digital forms of dollars on a database that represent the actual FIAT in a bank account EG bitstamp/mtgox. on the trading floor you are not playing with bank account FIAT (real currency in fincens eyes) you are playing with digitial fiat (convertible virtual currency in fincens eyes). i do not want fincen regulating bitcoin itself. i do not mind them however regulating the people playing with FIAT. and i have at many times facepalmed teentrepreneurs (teenage entrepreneurs) who play with fiat but feel they dont need licences purely because they class themselves as a bitcoin business. bitcoin is its own country, its own economy. not one other country can claim it is their property to then regulate it. the most they can do is make it illegal to obtain, which would drag bitcoin more underground and cause more problems for them. i prefer people to individually have a moral compass, to do their own due diligence on who they trade with and decline trading with anyone that sounds shady. rather then having a government control bitcoin for their own purposes and freezing assets without warning. that way when my american friends come to me and say they are low on cash, i can pay them a wage or give them some donated bitcoin so they can buy a nice pizza on foodler the same night. without all the regulatory paperwork, bureaucratic nightmare of 2-5 delay in transferring 'real currency'. bitcoins number one selling point is that it is it's own economy away from government ownership and control. any future regulations brought in by gavin allowing american government to decide changes to bitcoin-QT updates that auto tax or freeze public addresses would ruin bitcoin and make bitcoin property of the US government. which then ruins all of the appeal of bitcoin for people in europe, asia, england. that want to trade with americans, just without the bureaucratic nightmare |
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short story: fincen only want to regulate the people touching FIAT or its digital counterpart... long story: http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/03/realtime-bitcoin-fincen-issues-guidance-on-virtual-currencies-and-regulatory-responsibilities-2599120.htmlThe Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (“FinCEN”) is issuing this interpretive guidance to clarify the applicability of the regulations implementing the Bank Secrecy Act (“BSA”) to persons creating, obtaining, distributing, exchanging, accepting, or transmitting virtual currencies.1 Such persons are referred to in this guidance as “users,” “administrators,” and “exchangers,” all as defined below.2 A user of virtual currency is not an MSB under FinCEN’s regulations and therefore is not subject to MSB registration, reporting, and recordkeeping regulations. However, an administrator or exchanger is an MSB under FinCEN’s regulations, specifically, a money transmitter, unless a limitation to or exemption from the definition applies to the person. An administrator or exchanger is not a provider or seller of prepaid access, or a dealer in foreign exchange, under FinCEN’s regulations. Currency vs. Virtual Currency FinCEN’s regulations define currency (also referred to as “real” currency) as “the coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender and that [ii] circulates and [iii] is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance.”3 In contrast to real currency, “virtual” currency is a medium of exchange that operates like a currency in some environments, but does not have all the attributes of real currency. In particular, virtual currency does not have legal tender status in any jurisdiction. This guidance addresses “convertible” virtual currency. This type of virtual currency either has an equivalent value in real currency, or acts as a substitute for real currency.
basically convertible virtual currency is: digital dollars held on a database. EG bitstamp dollars, dwolla dollars, bitinstant dollars, liberty exchange dollars. which are the equivalent of bank account (legal tender) dollars but not classed as legal tender. EG you cannot pay a court fine or a tax bill with liberty exchange/bitinstant dollars. it has to be converted to a bank account dollar or paper/coin dollars to be legal tender
Background
On July 21, 2011, FinCEN published a Final Rule amending definitions and other regulations relating to money services businesses (“MSBs”).4 Among other things, the MSB Rule amends the definitions of dealers in foreign exchange (formerly referred to as “currency dealers and exchangers”) and money transmitters. On July 29, 2011, FinCEN published a Final Rule on Definitions and Other Regulations Relating to Prepaid Access (the “Prepaid Access Rule”).5 This guidance explains the regulatory treatment under these definitions of persons engaged in virtual currency transactions.
Definitions of User, Exchanger, and Administrator
This guidance refers to the participants in generic virtual currency arrangements, using the terms “user,” “exchanger,” and “administrator.”6 A user is a person that obtains virtual currency to purchase goods or services.7 An exchanger is a person engaged as a business in the exchange of virtual currency for real currency, funds, or other virtual currency. An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency.
Users of Virtual Currency
A user who obtains convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods or services is not an MSB under FinCEN's regulations.8 Such activity, in and of itself, does not fit within the definition of "money transmission services" and therefore is not subject to FinCEN's registration, reporting, and recordkeeping regulations for MSBs.9
Administrators and Exchangers of Virtual Currency
An administrator or exchanger that (1) accepts and transmits a convertible virtual currency or (2) buys or sells convertible virtual currency for any reason is a money transmitter under FinCEN's regulations, unless a limitation to or exemption from the definition applies to the person.10 FinCEN's regulations define the term "money transmitter" as a person that provides money transmission services, or any other person engaged in the transfer of funds. The term "money transmission services" means "the acceptance of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency from one person and the transmission of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency to another location or person by any means."11
The definition of a money transmitter does not differentiate between real currencies and convertible virtual currencies.
the definition of a money transmitter does not differentiate between real currency (legal tender in bank accounts) and convertible virtual currency (digital dollars on database that is not a bank account EG liberty exchange mtgox)
Accepting and transmitting anything of value that substitutes for currency makes a person a money transmitter under the regulations implementing the BSA.12 FinCEN has reviewed different activities involving virtual currency and has made determinations regarding the appropriate regulatory treatment of administrators and exchangers under three scenarios: brokers and dealers of e-currencies and e-precious metals; centralized convertible virtual currencies; and de-centralized convertible virtual currencies.
a. E-Currencies and E-Precious Metals
blah blah, talks about commodities (Raw materials EG gold silver wheat ) trading
b. Centralized Virtual Currencies
The second type of activity involves a convertible virtual currency that has a centralized repository. The administrator of that repository will be a money transmitter to the extent that it allows transfers of value between persons or from one location to another. This conclusion applies, whether the value is denominated in a real currency(bank notes /coins/digital dollar in a bank account) or a convertible virtual currency(digital dollar on database thats not a bank account). In addition, any exchanger that uses its access to the convertible virtual currency services provided by the administrator to accept and transmit the convertible virtual currency on behalf of others, including transfers intended to pay a third party for virtual goods and services, is also a money transmitter.
FinCEN understands that the exchanger's activities may take one of two forms. The first form involves an exchanger (acting as a "seller" of the convertible virtual currency) that accepts real currency or its equivalent from a user (the "purchaser") and transmits the value of that real currency to fund the user's convertible virtual currency account with the administrator. Under FinCEN's regulations, sending "value that substitutes for currency" to another person or to another location constitutes money transmission, unless a limitation to or exemption from the definition applies.16 This circumstance constitutes transmission to another location, namely from the user's account at one location (e.g., a user's real currency account at a bank) to the user's convertible virtual currency account with the administrator. It might be argued that the exchanger is entitled to the exemption from the definition of "money transmitter" for persons involved in the sale of goods or the provision of services. Under such an argument, one might assert that the exchanger is merely providing the service of connecting the user to the administrator and that the transmission of value is integral to this service. However, this exemption does not apply when the only services being provided are money transmission services.17
The second form involves a de facto sale of convertible virtual currency that is not completely transparent. The exchanger accepts currency or its equivalent from a user and privately credits the user with an appropriate portion of the exchanger's own convertible virtual currency held with the administrator of the repository. The exchanger then transmits that internally credited value to third parties at the user's direction. This constitutes transmission to another person, namely each third party to which transmissions are made at the user's direction. To the extent that the convertible virtual currency is generally understood as a substitute for real currencies, transmitting the convertible virtual currency at the direction and for the benefit of the user constitutes money transmission on the part of the exchanger.
c. De-Centralized Virtual Currencies
A final type of convertible virtual currency activity involves a de-centralized convertible virtual currency (1) that has no central repository and no single administrator
peer to peer trading of database dollars (presumably using ripple)
, and (2) that persons may obtain by their own computing or manufacturing effort.
given digital dollars (eclipse mining pool giving out dwolla digital dollars)
A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter. By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter. In addition, a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency.
Providers and Sellers of Prepaid Access
A person's acceptance and/or transmission of convertible virtual currency cannot be characterized as providing or selling prepaid access because prepaid access is limited to real currencies. 18
Dealers in Foreign Exchange
A person must exchange the currency of two or more countries to be considered a dealer in foreign exchange.19 Virtual currency does not meet the criteria to be considered "currency" under the BSA, because it is not legal tender. Therefore, a person who accepts real currency in exchange for virtual currency, or vice versa, is not a dealer in foreign exchange under FinCEN's regulations.
EG mtgox that only seems to have a trading floor involving dollars. is not a FOREX.. however BTC-e which has a separate trading floor (currency tab for euro and dollar) is a forex
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/03/realtime-bitcoin-fincen-issues-guidance-on-virtual-currencies-and-regulatory-responsibilities-2599120.html
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sending money to another account, making a payment, etc is NOT money transmission. You seem to think that anytime money moves it is money transmission. By that logic every consumer and business is a money transmitter.
Money transmitters move money for SOMEONE ELSE. If you are moving your OWN MONEY by definition you are not a money transmitter.
never in my life have i seen a bank check that a relative sending money as a birthday gift (not product purchase) is a licence holder...
EG grandma PERSON1: send $20 from account 12345. to me PERSON2 account 13244. and i send $20 to person3 to pay for a blah product account 98778.
where the hell did you read that i said moving only my money??
I don't need a coffee, what I need is for you to stop making up nonsense and passing it off as fact. You are negligently incorrect in every statement you have made in this thread. If you want to be ignorant then go ahead but when you try to spread that ignorance I am going to correct you.
your the one saying ever penny movement needs a licence.. not meyou keep thinking that banks are psychic to know that a $20 bank transfer is a birthday gift. and not: that grandma is buying something off of me.. and then im then buying something using the profits. or: that grandma wants something online but doesnt trust the web so is using me as a money transmitter to buy it or: that person A is even my grandma paying me.. and not a complete stranger using me as a money transmitter. the banks do not know the facts of the purpose of transactions under the certain thresholds. to class you as a money transmitter or not. the banks just know that the people involved are not on an active watchlist and the amounts are below the tresholds to not deem worthy of investigating further. now PLEASE READ the regulations. phone up fincen, or even speak to bitinstant!!! |
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