Bitcoin is winning exactly because it is lbertarian. Exactly because its free of governments rules & social rules. Without it, it would be nothing. Bitcoin isn't winning yet. I'm not aware of any study, but I suspect most merchants who do adopt it, are doing so because of lower fees. SatoshiDice threatens the viability of those lower fees, thus threatens Bitcoin's chances of winning. ...and by proposing to socially pressure SatoshiDICE to stop their practices you are threatening the very Bitcoin existence by trying to make it weaker. |
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Well, me and Luke-Jr had a little argument lately. Link to full discussion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150493.220So I am curious - what is your opinion after looking at the discussion - is Luke-Jr an enemy of Bitcoin ? Should you double-check his commits in the source ? Short transcript of the most interesting parts: Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections. No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality. It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing. No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse. To be clear... what is that am I proposing, exactly ? "A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured" Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin was created for ? Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin market currently is ? Isn't this kind of what libertarianism is all about ? Doesn't that statement make you kind of an enemy of the whole Bitcoin concept (and libertarian spandpoint) by the way ? You are still with us, or against us, because now I don't exactly see your position clearly ? No, on the first two. Libertarismism is not anti-government, just minimal government. And Bitcoin is not the same thing as libertarianism. I will freely admit to being an enemy of libertarianism. The form of government that seems to work out best in practice is a monarchy. If you are enemy of Libertarianism, the you are an enemy of Bitcoin as well. Because Bitcoin is all about libertarianism and crypto-anarchy ? I don't get it. How come you are even a Bitcoin developer with such views/outlooks ?
EDIT:
Also you may want to check this out before making an opinion:I got caught into an edit war on Bitcoin Wiki over the SatoshiDice article when I tried to make the SatoshiDice article more neutral by removing all straight "SatoshiDice is a DDoS attack" accusations, which weren't even backed by any references. Eventually he told me he would only allow my edits to stay if I specifically told in the article that SatoshiDice is a DDoS attack. Looking at his previous contributions in the wiki ( 1, 2, 3 ), it wasn't the first time his "facts" were met by criticism. Plus this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133974.20 |
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If a day comes that social rules can pressure Bitcoin, then I am out the next day (or I will switch to a fork). Why would i let ANYBODY mess with my money ?
Well I think that day was after the creation of the genesis block. Isn't it true, that if the majority of miners decide to accept any kind of rule, they have the power to enforce it? Anybody can be a miner, anybody can buy ASIC and vote with his own wallet. This is also a part of the free market which is the foundation of Bitcoin. |
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Even Satoshi himself has expressed his political views in the Bitcoin protocol The only implied view expressed there is opposition to inflation and/or fractional reserve banking. Most likely Satoshi held libertarian views, but that's still just his opinions - not Bitcoin itself. Let me be clear: After this discussion I don't trust you. I do not like where you would take this currency if you had the chance. I think you are an enemy. If some day, by some "unfortunate accident" you become main developer, i will vote for creating a fork without you. 95% of people (including me) wouldn't even be here of not for Bitcoin special properties making it immune to governments. What a coincidence that 95% of people here are trolls! Bitcoin can never achieve critical mass of adoption if non-libertarians are barred. Nobody is forcing non-libertarians to use Bitcoin. If they don't want it, it means its not for them. Bitcoin is winning exactly because it is lbertarian. Exactly because its free of governments rules & social rules. Without it, it would be nothing. |
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If you are enemy of Libertarianism, the you are an enemy of Bitcoin as well.
Because Bitcoin is all about libertarianism and crypto-anarchy ? No, Bitcoin is just a currency immune to inflation, and easy to use online. While most developers would probably prefer libertarianism, I don't think you will find any who support ignoring taxes/laws/regulations. I don't get it. How come you are even a Bitcoin developer with such views/outlooks ? Bitcoin is a perfect fit to enable a tonal currency in lieu of government adoption. I dislike inflation as much as the next person, of course. OK. I saved this whole discussion on my hard drive so that I can show people what kind of person you are when other discussions arise. I hope you don't have a problem with that. If you are enemy of Libertarianism, the you are an enemy of Bitcoin as well.
Because Bitcoin is all about libertarianism and crypto-anarchy ? [image] Bitcoin is a technology and a protocol. If you think it's political, well then, look at the gif again. Oh isn't it ? You are clearly lost and you don't know what you are talking about. Even Satoshi himself has expressed his political views in the Bitcoin protocol - check it out: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block---- What kind of delusion are you having guys ? 95% of people (including me) wouldn't even be here if not for Bitcoin special properties making it immune to governments. If a day comes that social rules can pressure Bitcoin, then I am out the next day (or I will switch to a fork). Why would i let ANYBODY mess with my money ? |
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Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections. No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality. It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing. No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse. To be clear... what is that am I proposing, exactly ? "A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured" Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin was created for ? Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin market currently is ? Isn't this kind of what libertarianism is all about ? Doesn't that statement make you kind of an enemy of the whole Bitcoin concept (and libertarian spandpoint) by the way ? You are still with us, or against us, because now I don't exactly see your position clearly ? No, on the first two. Libertarismism is not anti-government, just minimal government. And Bitcoin is not the same thing as libertarianism. I will freely admit to being an enemy of libertarianism. The form of government that seems to work out best in practice is a monarchy. If you are enemy of Libertarianism, the you are an enemy of Bitcoin as well. Because Bitcoin is all about libertarianism and crypto-anarchy ? I don't get it. How come you are even a Bitcoin developer with such views/outlooks ? |
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Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections. No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality. It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing. No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse. To be clear... what is that am I proposing, exactly ? "A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured" Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin was created for ? Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin market currently is ? Isn't this kind of what libertarianism is all about ? Doesn't that statement make you kind of an enemy of the whole Bitcoin concept (and libertarian spandpoint) by the way ? You are still with us, or against us, because now I don't exactly see your position clearly ? |
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Bumping for great justice.
@Luke-Jr:
Would you kindly answer my last question, Sir ? I still await your answer.
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The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.
We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
Sorry, but you are creating this world only in your head. I doubt, that your bitcoin world will ever find algorithms that stop socially-unacceptable behaviour like...slavery. That "stupid social rules" are everything, that stands between you and and the wild jungle of self interest. Bitcoin is just another tool, the responsibility of its usage is still with its users. Ok, I admit didn't make myself clear enough. What i meant the algorithms of Bitcoin are here to stop people from breaking currency-related social rules like the following: - Double spending - Forgery - Thievery (to a level, when combined with encryption / truecrypt) - Money creation & devaluation by governments and banks - which is also thievery by inflation Bitcoin solves these things automatically and internally without using stupid social rules, without the need of central authorities and/or lawyers. |
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Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections. No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality. It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing. No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse. To be clear... what is that am I proposing, exactly ? |
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Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.
People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections. No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality. It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing. 30 years ago if you asked anybody and told them about smartphones or how today's internet works, they would probably burn you at the stake. We, the "other nuts" go boldly in the future and fix the world with our crypto-mathematics. If you don't want to be part of it, them I am sorry for your loss.While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve. Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation. Then Bitcoin is doomed to fail. Last time i checked, there were at least three different possible solutions to this problem presented on the forums, so excuse me if I won't take your word for that. SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable. On the contrary, that is exactly what SatoshiDice is. Then perhaps you should stop wasting time whining around like a crybaby and try to find a mathematic solution instead. Because your (and misterbigg's) posts are like "OH NOES, SDICE IS GONNA KILL US ALL SBDY STOP THEM OMG OMG OMG !!!!!1111one" |
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The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant. Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that. The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules. Paraphrasing your example: In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it ! Your delusions are not an alternative "Bitcoin's reality", If you think that you can pressure ANYBODY into doing ANYTHING in a world consisting of darknets, peer-to-peer, mathematics, hardcore cryptography, crypto-geeks, ancarchists, libertarians, hardcore goldbugs & deflationists, then it is clearly you who is delusional. You cannot tell anybody here (including SatoshiDICE) to do ANYTHING. Deal with it. no matter how "idealistic" you try to make them. There is only one reality, and Bitcoin is just another currency within it.
Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality". I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily. People are always the weakest link in chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections. While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.
Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation. SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable. So if SatoshiDICE is a problem which cannot be solved using algorithms, that means Bitcoin was a failure from the start. |
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The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.
This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant. Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that. The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules. Paraphrasing your example: In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it ! |
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Would it be better for Bitcoin if SatoshiDice were to switch to LiteCoin instead? Now this is probably the best question that has ever been asked! Again: you cannot and will not tell SatoshiDice (or anybody else for that matter) what to do with their Bitcoins. If they can send spam, then it is a problem of the network. The network should not allow them to do that or it should make it unfeasible/uneconomic. If it doesn't do that, it needs to be fixed. ---- Please, stop spreading your stupid FUD. |
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The whole Bitcoin network exists exactly for the reason of coping with human imperfections (like forgery, double spending, thievery and other cons), so if it cannot do that, that means it is *completely useless*.
Did i make myself clear this time ?
Nobody is arguing against that. The point raised by the OP is that the current structuring of transaction fees only takes into account the current network cost of a transaction and doesn't capture the (indeterminate) future cost of keeping that unspent output available. If you want to understand it in software terms: intentionally unspendable outputs have the same devastating effect as a memory leak. Oh, I understand this perfectly. But you are not really on topic. What is this discussion about is: - Misterbigg wants us, community to *socially pressure SatoshiDICE into stopping generating spam*- I (and many others) say that this is *bullshit and a pointless waste of time, because network should be designed to cope with that*. And if it isn't yet, it should be. Why ? Because somebody with really bad intentions will start attacking it using this vulnerability sooner or later. |
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SD has clearly established, through their refusal to stop attacking Bitcoin, that their intentions are bad - or at the very least indistinguishable from what someone with bad intentions would do.
No, there is no software bug. The bug is in the human component of the protocol.
This is such a terrible bullshit. Can you all please stop creating this bullshit and spreading FUD ? You simply don't get the point: If the HUMAN behavior is a problem which the network cannot solve itself using its own algorithms, then the network is useless and doomed to failure. There can be no such thing as human component-based bug in the protocol, because the protocol is designed to cope exactly with that. Bitcoin is still on very early stages. If BTC at this stage cannot cope with such a minor disturbance as SatoshiDICE currently is, then it cannot cope with reality at all and should be either fixed or redesigned from scratch. The point in short: The whole Bitcoin network exists exactly for the reason of coping with human imperfections (like forgery, double spending, thievery and other cons), so if it cannot do that, that means it is *completely useless*.Did i make myself clear this time ? |
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yeah, i had seen that it does offer some speed advantages. i don't believe signature checking speed is currently a bottleneck, but extra cpu cycles always help. Signature checking is, in fact, a major bottleneck. It didn't use to be but it is now. Sadly, Ed25519 didn't exist back then... Perhaps somebody should start selling some kind of PCI-Express slot dedicated ASIC coprocessor for such computations to mitigate that bottleneck ? If Bitcoin becomes really popular, such needs may arise in the future - i can see a market for that then. |
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Satoshi dice, thank you for exposing dust output spam vulnerability in bitcoin (bloating unspent tx output data, which is RAM and is much more expensive than HDD!).
Exactly my point. We should THANK them for exposing it - i would rather have SDICE exploit this flaw now rather than somebody else with really bad intentions some time in the future. You have already proved your point, would be nice if you stopped spamming until devs and mining pool operators can act on it.
No, it wouldn't be nice. If not SatoshiDICE, then somebody will use this flaw in the protocol. SDICE is putting a pressure on the parties interested (miners, devs) to fix this. So I say don't bother SDICE and let it continue until the protocol bug is resolved. misterbigg, thank you for raising awareness of the problem
For the thousandth time: There is NO "problem". Just a bug in the software. ---- Also, OP of this topic is simply spreading FUD. |
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After interacting with znort987 on IRC I'd advise being very careful in using this software double check any results that you get from it.
I pointed out that he was making some (theoretically and practically) minorly incorrect claims about the analysis this tool produced and his response was confused first failing on technically grounds and then after the technical misunderstand was made clear he became uncivil— calling me and other folks names and such— quite bizarre. While its obviously useful, it's written by someone who apparently hasn't done your thinking for you, so you need to think for yourself.
This forum should have a red or orange warning box on the top of each topic (placeable by mods, admins & devs only) to warn people of scams and events such as this. What do you think ? |
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I think that raising awareness is the best we can do.
This is not "raising awarness". This is whining like a crybaby, and spreading unnecessary panic & chaos. |
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