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4261  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Break even difficulty by hardware efficiency (power cost = value of BTC) on: October 09, 2013, 03:20:48 PM
Update (improved) KNC to 1.0 J/GH based on reported 455W @ 12 VDC running at 502 GH/s.  Assume 90% AC power supply efficiency results in estimated 505W at the wall.  Also moved KNC into the "actual devices" category.  Bitfury still holds the efficiency crown though.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3307091#msg3307091

On edit: revised slightly to 1.1 J/GH.  The 455W was the output (0.75V) of the DC to DC converter.  Based on GE spec sheet the input current would be ~10% higher.  That puts it closer to 560W at the wall.  This appears to be inline with other customer reports using kill-a-watt type meters.  On some firmware and with the 4 VRM model the wattage is significantly higher ~1.3 J/GH.
4262  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 09, 2013, 03:15:08 PM
Note sure if I missed it in the last 200 pages but has anyone recorded wattage at the wall with a kill-a-watt or similar device?  If it is better than the estimated 1.8 J/GH I would like to update the power thread.

U can check this out - https://i.imgur.com/ILgPsPG.jpg?1

That is useful 455W @ 12VDC and assume PSU is 90% efficient means ~505W at the wall or ~1GH/J.  Still would like to see some at the wall measurements from users in the field. 
4263  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 09, 2013, 02:53:44 PM
Note sure if I missed it in the last 200 pages but has anyone recorded wattage at the wall with a kill-a-watt or similar device?  If it is better than the estimated 1.8 J/GH I would like to update the power thread.
4264  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Monarch butterfly prototype on: October 02, 2013, 10:32:49 PM
They are stock and the base appears (eyeballing the board and heatsink photos larger than the package size.

According to the drawings on arctic's site:
http://www.arctic.ac/en/p/cooling/cpu/473/freezer-a30.html
(click on compatibility, then scroll down)
it looks like the contact base front to back is no deeper than ~21mm, maybe 25mm if you include the aluminium bracket which Im not sure is supposed to make contact; thats considerably less than the 41mm of the KnC heatspeader. What picture are you looking at?

Well the heat pipes are 8mm diameter each.  So that puts the minimum width more like <32mm. 

I took the KNC board photo measured the pixels across to get the resolution (pixels per mm).  Then measured the pixels between the two mounting holes.  Board has 6 mounting holes 4 inner which I believe are unused and two outer which are used for the heatsink.   That gave me the distance between the two mounting holes.  Then using the heatsink photo did the same thing to estimate the contact surface.  I did this a month ago for my own research but I may have made a mistake.




4265  Economy / Speculation / Re: Silkroad closed down. Owner Arrested. on: October 02, 2013, 10:21:54 PM
Um.... in what world does the USG owe $100 trillion?

It is called unfunded liabilities.  Many of the US future obligations are "off the books".  The "national debt" is just the tip of the iceberg.

Any corporation offering retirement or retirees for healthcare would be required to project the lifetime cost, reduce that to NPV and reflect that as a liability.  Not doing so is criminal, literally criminal charges.   However the US govt gets to play by different accounting rules.  Since a retiree in 2040 doesn't cost the govt anything "yet" it is $0 liability on the US govt books.  The fact that inevitably 2040 will come and that retiree will stop working, paying taxes, and will collect SS and Medicare for the next 20-40 years only matters in the real world.

4266  Economy / Speculation / Re: End of Silk Road is good for the long run on: October 02, 2013, 10:18:15 PM
The end of SR doesn't mean the end of drug sales in Bitcoins any more than the bust of any USD based drug operation means the end of sales in USD.

SR had a million users, it did 9M BTC in volume in 30 months despite charging more than 8% fee (and people complain about Ebay).   The means a demand exists.  SR is done, the operator is out (due to self inflicted stupidity).  Someone else will step up to collect that lucrative profit.  If/when they go down another someone or half dozen someones will step up.

When people stop buying drugs in USD they will stop buying drugs in BTC.   
4267  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Monarch butterfly prototype on: October 02, 2013, 09:54:54 PM
In fact, and slightly OT,  Im looking forward to seeing some close ups of their cooling solution, AFAIk those  intel and amd coolers from Artic dont have a base surface area large enough to cover their entire heatspreader. Did they order a custom batch; or is part of their heatspreader not covered?

They are stock and the base appears (eyeballing the board and heatsink photos larger than the package size.  Not sure if that is intentional design choice on Artic's part or if KNC just lucked out that Artic's sinks are larger than average.  Due to the direct heat pipe design there likely are some limits on how "short" the base of the pipes can be made.

Quote
My point is that BFL isnt going to struggle with hotspots on that chip and that its a smaller chip than KnC isnt their problem.

That wasn't my claim either.  Smaller chip, higher power consumption, constrained device size combined create a significant thermal "challenge".  Not impossible but BFL has had difficulty properly cooling devices with much lower power densities and much more "open" form factors.

BFL is no AMD and even AMD had issues (and 7 month delay) cooling the 7990 and the 7990 still uses less power than BFL design is simulated to use.  If BFL is even over moderately it could go from insanely difficult to (economically) impossible.
4268  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Custom Case Design for Bitfury SHASH Miners on: October 02, 2013, 09:30:25 PM
I don't see the value of the perpendicular fans.   BFL used them and it reeks of "I don't know what to do so lets strap on more fans".


A single "end" fan should be sufficient.  If it isn't use two either "back to back" or one on either end in a push/pull configuration.  If you still need improved cooling changing the spacing of the boards and designing a plastic "air shroud" so the airflow is forced across the fins (and not around it) should work fine.

Take a look at some rackmount server designs.  The CPU "coolers" are simply heatsinks with no fans.   The fans at the front of the chassis force airflow across the heat sinks and out the back of the chassis.  If you don't have any boards to work with you could use some power resistors sized to produce an equivalent heat load for prototyping.

4269  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Monarch butterfly prototype on: October 02, 2013, 09:21:21 PM
Thats not entirely fair. You measure the size of a heatspreader, the actual diesize will determine the thermal density and for KnC's sake, I hope thats no where near 1000mm˛.

True I was simplifying to avoid turning it into a page long post.  However heat spreaders are larger than the die for a reason.  The thermal conductivity between silicon and the IHS is generally higher than the IHS and heatsink (or waterblock or air).  That is one reason the IHS is generally larger than the die.  If one the die size and die heat flux mattered there would be no reason (well no thermal reason) to use a larger IHS then the die.  

Quote
Moreover, the entire surface of these asics will generate about the same amount of heat per mm˛ very uniformly . On a modern cpu,  something like 90% of the power is used by the cpu core which in most cases occupies only a small fraction of the die (the rest is cache, memory controller, etc). Im too lazy too look up numbers, but Im pretty sure a highend cpu will have a far higher thermal density at its core than any of these asics.  Silicon has fairly good thermal conductivity, mitigating the problem for cpu's to some extend, but its no were as good as copper or even aluminum.

That is a good point on the "even" heat flux however GPU unlike CPU tend to be mostly core engine and thus are more like mining ASICs in that respect.  One ASIC vendor (HF) uses 4 9mm x 9mm dies with 5mm space between them in a single package to lower the heat flux.

Quote
So thermal density isnt going to be problem with these chips. Of course you still need to get rid of 100's of watts of power, no doubt that requires a serious cooler, but the size of the chips wont make a lot of difference.

Well no.   Thermal density does matter, it may not be a problem but it does matter.  A Bitfury rig uses ~400W yet needs no heat sink.   200 USB miners use ~400W yet don't even need a fan.   If you have a large lawn it probably has a thermal output (from IR exposure to the sun) of a couple KW (but at a very low heat flux) yet I doubt you run out there on a hot day and crank up a serious cooler to keep the lawn from bursting into flames.

All things being the same the higher the heat flux the more complex the cooling to remove the same amount of energy (watts) from a smaller space.  Baring some exotic tech that means larger heat sinks, more efficient (heat pipes) heat sinks, and more airflow.   With the constraint of a dual slot cooler that puts some boundaries on what is possible in the airflow and size parameters. 
4270  Economy / Speculation / Re: Silkroad closed down. Owner Arrested. on: October 02, 2013, 08:45:40 PM
Really bizarre that someone so successful and so paranoid did something so utterly stupid.  Hubris?  He got away with it for 30 months so he figured he was invulnerable.  In Iraq units generally suffer higher than normal casualties in the first and last month of a deployment.  The early casualties are due to inexperience and the later ones due to overconfidence.
4271  Economy / Speculation / Re: Silkroad closed down. Owner Arrested. on: October 02, 2013, 06:25:28 PM
You're wondering why he's not in Jail? He was arrested in July...
Quote from: nytimes.com
The authorities identified the man as Ross Ulbricht, who was arrested by F.B.I. agents Tuesday afternoon at a library in San Francisco.
Huh

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/10/02/feds-arrest-the-alleged-founder-of-bitcoins-largest-drug-market/

Quote
The government then identified the primary Silk Road server and obtained an image of its hard drive in July, providing the federal government with a wealth of information about the Silk Road's operations.

I seem to be missing the word "arrest".  Most likely through some manipulation of tor they were able to find and break into the server.   That "wealth of information" probably led to clues which led to more which eventually led to them making the arrest not in July but yesterday.
4272  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 02, 2013, 06:22:14 PM
Having said that if it is true the SR turnover is supposed to have been 9 million BTC. Now there are only 11.5million total, so the price will drop like it is 2011.

You can't really compare volume over a period of time to the money supply.   It was 9M in volume over 30 months or about 10K per day.  Granted a large number but much smaller than the headline seems.  Also my guess would be that Bitcoin apreciated faster than SR sales volume grew (in dollar terms) thus while 10K per day was the "average" it probably was significantly higher in the early life and less today.
4273  Economy / Speculation / Re: The Great Silk Road Crash of 20** ...? on: October 02, 2013, 06:17:34 PM
Well that rise was unexpected..

You must be new here that rise was 100% expected.  Of course I expect it to fail and fall again and then rise again and then fall again and then "bottom out" and then crash through the bottom and then rally for over a week and then give it all back in a day ....

Just rewind your charts to the prior bubble.  It probably will all happen again (although in smaller scale).
4274  Economy / Speculation / Re: The Great Silk Road Crash of 20** ...? on: October 02, 2013, 06:16:22 PM
Bitcoin is not actually backed by SR and gambling. Bitcoin is backed by speculation.

The downside is that the fact that bitcoin can be considered useful in any way rests too heavily on SR and gambling.

Everything starts somewhere.  The fact that Bitcoin went from the genesis block and $0 valuation to >$1B in four years is impressive no matter how it got there.  The "ecosystem" has allowed VC for things like BitPay, coinbase, the Bitcoin trust, etc.  It will be that second round of more sophisticated service providers which will create the increased utility. 
4275  Economy / Speculation / Re: Silkroad closed down. Owner Arrested. on: October 02, 2013, 05:55:48 PM
So reading the complaint IF (and this is a big IF) the FBI is correct then the SR is many magnitudes larger than most predicted.

Quote
All told, the site has generated sales revenue totally over 9.5 million Bitcoins and collected commissions from these sales totaling over 600,00 Bitcoins.  Although the value of Bitcoins has varied significantly during the site's lifetime, these figures are roughly equivelent today of approximately $1.2 billion in sales and approximately $80 million in commissions.

pg 6 (section 16).  Sadly the pdf is an image not copyable text so I am not going to hand copy a larger quote.

http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/UlbrichtCriminalComplaint.pdf

On edit:  I guess that isn't as surprising as I thought.  SR has been around ~30 months.  $1.2 billion / 30 = $40 million per month.  In 2012 a study estimated volume at $10M to $15M per month.  In a followup about 6 months later sales were reported to have increased significantly and the author said $40M wasn't unlikely.  I guess just seeing it as a single aggregate figure was shocking.
4276  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Monarch butterfly prototype on: October 02, 2013, 05:33:20 PM
I can't remember the last time I saw a motherboard which had anything other than a multi-phase synchronous regulator for the CPU - and they don't have to deliver as much power as the Monarch does!

What about GPU?  Honest question I have no idea.

Here is a HD 7970 PCB.
http://www.techage.fr/picto/photosredac/pcu57/radeon/HD7970-PCB.jpg
http://www.techage.fr/picto/photosredac/pcu57/radeon/HD7970-Alim.jpg

4277  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Monarch butterfly prototype on: October 02, 2013, 05:25:37 PM
For those that are interested I eyeball the package size at ~34mm x 34mm.  How?  The power connector is a standard part with 13.8mm width (for 6 conductors).  http://www.molex.com/elqNow/elqRedir.htm?ref=http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/050362377_sd.pdf  In the photo using that component as a reference we can calculate the resolution at 5.36 pixels per mm.  That puts the package size at ~34mm by 34mm.


However it makes me wonder even more how they intend to dissipate that level of energy density.  If we assume BFL power requirements are accurate and the DC to DC regulators are 90% efficient.  Then 350W *0.9 / 2 = 157.5W per chip.  At 11.56 cm2 that is 13.6 W/cm2.  This is already high and BFL doesn't have a very good track record of accurate power simulations.  At 20% over it would be ~14 W/cm2 and at 50% over it would be ~17 W/cm2.  These are some pretty challenging Heat fluxes.

How does the heat flux compare to other ASIC products.  KNC package is 20.25 cm2 and chip only power consumption is ~160W.  That is 7.9 W/cm2.  Now take a look at how large the heat sink and fan is for a single chip and double it.  HashFast package size is also 20.25 cm2 and chip only power consumption is ~250W.  That works out to 12.34 W/cm2.  HashFast is using waterblock (water has 20x the thermal conductivity of air) to remove that level of energy density.


4278  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Monarch butterfly prototype on: October 02, 2013, 05:04:39 PM
How the hell are they going to deal with the cooling needs if these are supposed to be packed next to each other in PCI-E slots?

Simple you will only be able to mount 1 or 2 per computer chassis and thus defeating the major "advantage" of a "datacenter ready card".
4279  Economy / Speculation / Re: The Great Silk Road Crash of 20** ...? on: October 02, 2013, 04:58:05 PM
Guess that fills in the blanks.  "The Great Silk Road Crash of 2013".  

Given Bitcoin has seen -40% days and -75% weeks I think the "great crash" would need to eclipse that.   Something massive and spectacular like a -66% day and -95% week.   
I don't see SR being shut down dropping BTC from $120 to $9.  
4280  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: October 02, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
Forget tracking numbers . Silk road has been busted. btc crashing. $3.5 million in btc seized also.
bodog poker seized too.

Edit: Actually btc price isn't diving as fast as I expected

That's actually great positive news!  Grin Bitcoin is free to rise without the negative stigma that that attached itself as a cancer.
If only they could also bust all the traffickers and drug dealers, who use USD, so that maybe Dollar would also stand a chance...

Something will replace the gap left by SR.  $50M a year in demand isn't going to just disappear.
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