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4021  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: CoinTerra announces its first ASIC - Hash-Rate greater than 500 GH/s on: October 25, 2013, 04:28:22 AM
So I can double up on watts on a 15A if I switch to 240V too?  Would 14 gauge wire still be enough?  (I know the code may differ slightly between countries, so just theoretically).  

edit: I think I know the answer is yes, but it still throws my brain for a loop trying to imagine why increasing the voltage won't melt the wire, and yet you can still deliver more power with the same gauge of wire

Simple answer is yes.   Wire guage is based on current.  By switching the circuit to 240V you effectively double the wattage of the circuit.   Remember in many cases there are multiple outlets on the same branch circuit so you want to make sure you change all the outlets (or at least mark them it wouldn't be code but it would keep you from doing something stupid).

You will need to rewire the branch at the breaker panel.  In the US a 120V circuit is wired neutral, hot, and ground.  240V is two hots and ground (no neutral).  

So
120V 15A circuit = 1800W * 80% (derate for continual load) = 1440W usable.
240V 15A circuit = 3600W * 80% (derate for continual load) = 2880W usable.
Same wire double the power.
4022  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: And if half of the miners turn off their hardwares ? on: October 25, 2013, 04:24:31 AM
I think the greed is destroying the decentralization of Bitcoin with an excessive concentration in the pools.
But that still does not have have a simple solution.

Pools are no more concentrated than they were two years ago.  If anything they are marginally less concentrated and a significantly higher solo %.
4023  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Break even difficulty by hardware efficiency (power cost = value of BTC) on: October 25, 2013, 03:18:03 AM
At 0.9 Joules / GHash, 10 PHash server farm requires, 2.5 kWh?!

I must be wrong somewhere. Huh

Is it 0.9 joules / second / GHash?

In that case, it would be 9000 kWh.

kWh is a measure of energy (power over time).
kW is a measure of power.

1 kW for 1 hour = 1 kWh


10 PH/s farm
0.9 J/GH * 10,000,000 GH/s = 9,000,000 J/s = 9,000,000 W = 9,000 kW

So yes 9,000 but it is kW not kWh.  Now if you ran your 9,000 kW farm for 1 hour it would use 9,000 kWh of energy.  
In a year that 9,000 kW farm would use 9,000 * 24 * 365 = 788 million kWh.  At $0.10 per kWh that would be $78.8 million in energy cost.

If the Joule conversion confuses you 0.9 J/GH = 0.9 W/GH/s but that looks ugly. Smiley
4024  Economy / Speculation / Re: Where are the coins for Winkelvoss Trust & 2nd Market Bitcoin Investment Fund? on: October 25, 2013, 02:35:43 AM
Setting aside my personal opinion that the modern legal ownership interpretation is inapplicable to bitcoin. If an ETF exists backed by bitcoins in an address no one knows do the ETF owners really own the bitcoins or do they simply own a promise of bitcoins?   Also why would anyone want to "invest" in the exact opposite of what bitcoin is supposed to solve - counter party risk?

If you can hold direct you probably wouldn't.  For many though (likely not people reading this) the ability to buy BTC as easily any other stock or ETF is attractive.  I am sure the fund will come up with a way to transparently show they have 1BTC for every x shares issued.   The funds ability to attract investors and thus fees depends on it.
4025  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Reliable? on: October 25, 2013, 01:14:19 AM
It's very easy. BFL has delivered more than 20k mining devices and have more to go.  Bitfury has not delivered any significant quantity of devices, nor has Avalon.  ASICminer is the only one that has delivered any sort of significant quantity of devices at this point, and all of those are Block Eruptors, which are basically meaningless.  I wasn't aware KNC was up to 3000 units shipped, is that figure accurate?  Fairly impressive but it's only 3000 units.

So which is it units or GH/s?  
If units then excluding ASICMiner is nonsense.  I mean why not units smaller than 175 GH/s and BFL will have shipped 0.  Looking at all shipped units you are incorrect.

If it is GH/s then 3,000 KNC units is more than a PH/s.  There is no way you have shipped a magnitude more hashpower than all vendors.  So looking at hashpower you are incorrect.

Either way you are incorrect.
4026  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Reliable? on: October 25, 2013, 12:43:11 AM
You know.. that or the fact that BFL is actually delivering product and has delivered more product than everyone else combined several times over.  Yeah... one or the other.  Gosh I wonder which one.


You do know that is not even possible.   
Bitfury pool is >0.5 PH/s.   Total delivered unknown but obviously >0.5 PH/s.
KNC has delivered ~3000 units or ~1 PH/s.   
Total network hashrate is ~3 PH/s. 

So even if the entire network consisted of nothing more than BFL + Bitfury + KNC = 3 PH/s it is no longer possible for you to have delivered more than all other vendors combined  and certainly not a magnitude (10x) more.

4027  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Two Phase Open Bath Immersion Cooling Thread on: October 25, 2013, 12:33:25 AM
Im interested. I will read more when I have a few minutes, but I love the idea.

It looks like your need for bare boards, anything bitfurry based would be your best bet, with small sinks on each chip to aid in surface area.

It is very likely you won't need heatsinks using bitfury chips.  Which is a good thing given the number of chips needed for 1 TH.  FC-72 has a critical heat flux under normal conditions (no flow, no subcooling, flat surface, normal pressure) of ~ 15 W/cm2.  Beyond 15 W/cm2 you get boiling failure and the wall superheat (difference between fluid temp and device temp skyrockets).  Under the critical heat flux the wall super heat is <10 C.

Bitfury (overclocked) ~1 W/GH (chip only).  
Package dimensions 0.7cm x 0.7 cm
1/(0.7*0.7) = 2.04 W/cm2.
Bitfury Heat Flux: ~ 2 W/cm2  < FC-72 Critical Heat Flux: ~ 15W/cm2
No issues having proper boiling without heatsink.

The disadvantage of using Bitfury chips is the low "GH density".   PCB size = 12cm x 12cm ?  If boards are spaced 1cm apart = 144cm3.  42 GH per board.  0.29 GH/cm3 or 3.4 CC/GH.   Fluorinert runs about $0.80 per CC ($80 per Liter), thus at 3.4 CC of fluid per GH the fluid cost is $2.72 per GH which is pretty high.  The higher the GH density the less fluid needed per unit of hashpower and the more economical the system.  My goal would be to get fluid costs to <$0.25 per GH and full system cost (excluding SHA-2 boards) <$0.50 per GH.
4028  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Reliable? on: October 25, 2013, 12:17:56 AM
I doubt they have "shares" but take a look at the auction thread.  BFL spend 10+ BTC per slot for 4 to 6 slots per week every week.
Say 50 BTC per week or 2,500 BTC per year.   I guess 2,500 BTC buys you immunity.
4029  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: UPDATED: Estimate of ASIC pre-orders (10,000 to 12,000 TH/s by end of 2013) on: October 24, 2013, 11:09:15 PM
Actually unless they didn't ship anything on 10/14 it is probably closer to 3000.

10/24 -
10/23 - "with good day ~400 units?" should be finished
10/22 - ?? "600 boxes shipped in last few days"
10/21 - ??
10/18 - ??
10/17 - 280 boxes shipped
10/16 - 455 boxes shipped
10/15 - 350 boxes shipped
10/14 - ??
10/11 - 700 product total since start

So the "600" probably refers to 18th, 21st, and 2nd.  That leaves 10/14 as a unknown so unless nothing shipped we can guestimate it was probably 200-400 more units.

So 700 + 300 + 350 + 455 + 280 + 600 (3 days) + 400 (one final good day) = ~3085.  I will round to 3000 units. 
Assuming 350 GH per avg unit (mix of Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury) that 1 PH/s.

Thanks Puppet.
4030  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Unconfirmed on: October 24, 2013, 10:27:56 PM
What I mean is, the transaction won't sit there until the public address is funded, correct?

Bitcoin doesn't work on the concept of "funded".  A tx consists of specific inputs which are prior tx outputs.   

If the inputs are invalid or already spent the tx will be dropped by the first nodes it is sent to. You can't later fund the "address" because Bitcoin doesn't work on the concept of an address having x BTC worth of "funds".  Sending funds to the address would create a brand new input, one not referenced by your prior invalid tx.

Simple version:
Invalid tx are simply dropped. 
Unconfirmed =/= invalid it just means not included in a block.

4031  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: CoinTerra announces its first ASIC - Hash-Rate greater than 500 GH/s on: October 24, 2013, 10:15:10 PM
Jesus, I'll have to dedicate a 15 AMP breaker just for mining  Shocked

Use 240V.  No seriously for any serious miner you likely should consider a dedicate branch and if you are going to do that look into 240V.  NEMA L6-30R outlet.  Good for 5.76 KW.  As an added bonus ATX power supplies tend to be 1% to 2% more efficient at 240V vs 120V. 
4032  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: UPDATED: Estimate of ASIC pre-orders (10,000 to 12,000 TH/s by end of 2013) on: October 24, 2013, 10:13:45 PM
Is the KNC Sept/Oct number for unshipped items only, or their entire first batch? Because if you read the KnC blog, I get a total of 2385 units already shipped and "one good day" worth of production pending (presumably >400).

Can you provide a link?  Hmm.  I don't have a link handy but in KNC thread I do recall them indicating ~500 shipped with ~1000 to go.  Maybe that was orders not units.  If the first batch was indeed 2700 units the hashrate should be updated (nearly double).
4033  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: October 24, 2013, 09:58:49 PM
Thank you for the juicy insight. Please let us know how it goes. Maybe you will take into consideration selling a form of the kit to the public. I think i may not be the only one interested.

+1
DnT, can you start a thread on this? Have some questions that would go off topic too much here, like what sort of oil you intend to use.

I had started this thread/FAQ but got busy I will hopefully fill in more details this evening. 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313087.0

I don't know if I will ever sell a kit, hell I don't even know if it will live up to the promise at this point.   It won't be oil (although that is an option),  I am looking at Fluorinert (probably FC-72) made by 3M.  My interest in HashFast's, is that of all the ASIC designs, the HashFast modules have the highest density when looking at the hashrate and board size (~1.7 GH/cm2).   That is important to minimize the amount of immersion fluid necessary.  The other reason is that since they use USB for data connection it makes customizing easier.

Anything can be immersion cooled by at least based on specs HashFast design is near optimal based on designs we have seen so far.
4034  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: CoinTerra announces its first ASIC - Hash-Rate greater than 500 GH/s on: October 24, 2013, 09:57:17 PM
I estimate somewhere between 1.1 kWh and 1.3 kWh per unit.

CPUs (2,000) x (0.55) = 1,100 W
Power supply loss = 100 W
Cooling and other components = 100 W

Well if 0.55 J/GH is the chip power consumption throw in another 10% loss for DC regulators (so another 110W or so).   ATX power supply is 12V.  No ASIC runs at 12V so all ASICs have converters to drop the 12V down to ~1V used by the chip.   Nothing is 100% efficient, 90% efficiency is a good place to start.
4035  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast launches sales of the Baby Jet on: October 24, 2013, 09:53:42 PM
thanks guys..  my jupiters jumped up another 40Gh each hearing the news   Grin
sounds like they made the right decision to eff over con and kano and just write their own firmware if you have a 5k machine that is that erratic.   lol.
karma

Also, when you sell a 350GH/s unit that later changes to a 400GH/s unit and out of the box with the base firmware manages to get 500GH/s for most customers, then that's not exactly a failure.

I got my first unit Oct 4th (4 days late). Sure one of the cards died and took a week to replace, but it STILL hashed at 400GH/s with only 3 cards. My other 2 units shipped shortly afterwards and they've all been solid. I'm not saying that KNC was or is perfect, but damn if they haven't set the highest bar for pre-orders.

I would actually like to see HashFast or any other company keep setting this bar higher as it only helps customers and forces competition to become that much better.

The ball is in HashFast's court.  They seem pretty well run and I think they know the market is watching (and thus their ability to secure future sales).   Lets see what they do.
4036  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: October 24, 2013, 09:21:51 PM
Are you ready to invest so much for your needs? Don't you need a considerable amount of money in order to set up this kind of thing?

Depends on what you mean by considerable.  My estimate for the prototype immersion tank is $1,500 to $2,000 (excluding ASICs) and it should be capable of cooling 4TH/s to 8TH/s of hardware.  The actual capacity will depend on a lot of factors primary ASIC board size.

As for "needs"?  Sometimes people just do things to see if they can. Smiley  In theory with immersion cooling your ASICs could provide year round hot water and heating in the winter "for free".  What heat you can't use can be cheaply dumped outside.   The fact that is can be done in a smaller space, and with noise is an added advantage.   To take full advantage of the capabilities I will need one or more vendors to sell "naked modules" (no cooling, power, cases, heatsinks, etc) at a reasonable cost.  The initial purchases are just for evaluation.

Quote
Have you received your knc yet?

No but it was a Nov order so I don't expect it before Nov 15th.
4037  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: the plural & capitalization of bitcoin? on: October 24, 2013, 06:26:16 PM
I should have known the British would fuck up my example. Smiley

Exceptions to every rule but generally currency units are plural.  
1 dollar,  15 dollars
1 euro, 15 euros
1 ruble, 15 rubles
1 bitcoin, 15 bitcoins
1 milliBitcoin, 15 milliBitcoins
4038  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: the plural & capitalization of bitcoin? on: October 24, 2013, 05:51:18 PM
Um the plural usage is right there in your quote.

Quote
and bitcoins (with a lower case b) to label units of the currency.

Do you also say I won five hundred dollar or man prices in the UK were expensive that [...] was 10 pound.

It is units of currency thus it is plural.   The only time the units of currency is singular is when it is one unit.

That will be one dollar.
That will be one bitcoin.

That will be two dollars
That will be two bitcoins.

4039  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: CoinTerra announces its first ASIC - Hash-Rate greater than 500 GH/s on: October 24, 2013, 05:43:40 PM
How do you justify close to an $8,000 difference per unit for those who will receive their mining units literally days apart?

What makes you think they will be days apart.

"late Dec" is planning to ship 31 DEC but that will become early Jan unless there is a significant delay.   
"Jan" means by Jan 31st which depending on how bad "Dec" slips could be Feb.


4040  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Sierra Overclocking on: October 24, 2013, 05:39:15 PM
your answer is yes.  I remember a rep from hashfast saying that there would be overclocking temperature logic built into the chips themselves.  They will adjust the hashrate and intensity if a lower temperature is detected.  Best believe it makes a lot of sense to mine these in something akin to an icebox or freezer just to get a huge overclock.

Not a good idea.
a) compressors on fridges are small.  They are designed to keep cold stuff cold not remove a 1.2KW heat load.
b) cooling below dew point = condensation onto components which probably don't enjoy getting wet.

I'm just quoting a quote that I heard which is - condensation collects on objects colder than the ambient temperature surrounding them - Asics will always be warm/hotter than ambient air.  But I completely understand your second point on A that they are meant to maintain a constant temperature, NOT remove heat.  Now you have me thinking about how I could do it but have something cost effective.  A data center is obviously available for me but this is pretending that I don't have that and need to run my own home electronics freezer.

Water moves.   Condense on cooler metal parts and drip, flow, puddle to the hotter actively electrical ones.   Cooling below dewpoint is generally not a good idea.   


As for what to use.   You need something which can move a lot more heat.  1 ton AC = 12,000 BTU ~= 3KW.   A window AC in a insulated box would work.  Just don't try cooling below dew point.  However at some point using chilled water cooling starts to make more sense.  The HF modules are already designed to be fitted with a waterblock.
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