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1201  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 27, 2011, 09:54:09 AM
Education is hard work.

The acquisition of knowledge is the default impetus of children, broadly speaking. Absorbing our surroundings, our culture and ideas is the fundamental behavior that has allowed us to become a dominant species. The limitless and and nearly inexhaustible desire to learn is slowly eroded by institutions and situations in which children are not provided an environment that promotes this activity. Increasingly in the monetary system, we abandon children to watch television, sit still, shut up and learn inside of government run child warehouses that promote social norms, competition and stratification, and then we are shoved into a dwindling job market that rewards dulling, repetitious and uncritical or thoughtless labor, menial servitude or other irrelevant services that sap our energy, desire and spirit. Nothing in our current system promotes cooperation for the betterment of all people everywhere. Instead we are forced to chip away at each other bit by bit while engaging in a monetary system that is currently self destructing. Social cohesion, concern for others and the desire to sustainably utilize our resources for the benefit of everyone is the farthest thing from our minds in the dominant culture. "Education" has only become "hard work" because the system has deemed it antithetical to the profit motive, and therefor has molded it to allow only the misinformed, mislead and misguided consuming masses to become "successful" in it. Given the state of our technological capability, scientific understanding and global interconnectedness, it is absolutely shameful that we continue to allow ourselves and others to be treated this way.
1202  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: My comments on trying to sell the r/Bitcoin subreddit: on: July 24, 2011, 11:28:25 PM
More information here.

Ok, so you can't provide any support for this statement?

Mugging and starving are the choices presented in a monetary system.

A monetary system perpetuates structural violence, which is more far reaching and more devastating than physical violence. This discussion is outside of the thread topic, however.

Anyone can make assertions, but nothing you've said backs this up. If you're talking about fiat money, sure, states are violent. Feel free to make another thread to prove money causes violence and link it here. Thanks.

I have already directed you to the appropriate thread.
1203  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Mention on Alex Jones Today & Mention of Bitcoin Forum URL on: July 23, 2011, 05:32:52 AM
@cypherdoc, you just wrote bitcoin PR manual.

Quote
1.  don't talk about mining.  its confusing.
2.  don't talk about the blockchain.  its even more confusing.
3.  say that bitcoin is "digital gold".  that'll definitely make them sit up.
4.  say that only a fixed number will be issued and then NO MORE.
5.  say that since its digital it can be instantaneously transported across borders w/o detection.  they'll immediately realize the implications of this.
6.  don't say anything about "cryptocurrency" or "cryptography".  this makes it sound like bitcoin is trying to hide something along the likes of Silk Road and other illegal activities.
7.  say that bitcoins are secured by "advanced mathematical algorithms" that prevent counterfeiting.  sounds impressive.
8.  try to avoid saying anything about Satoshi since an unknown character brings to mind a shady type character or hidden agenda.
9.  do explain that the decentralized or "spread out" nature of bitcoin makes it indestructable to gov't or Fed intervention.    they'll like that.
10.  when they ask what its denominated in say that bitcoin is a currency unto itself and "floats" in value against other fiat currencies like the USD but bitcoin is in fact NOT a fiat currency.  you might mention that you think that bitcoin will become the gold std against which all other currencies will be measured.
11. i wouldn't recommend newbies go to forum.bitcoin.org especially with all the trolls we've been getting there recently.  the best place for them to go to learn about bitcoin is bitcoin.org which explains all the facts and has references.

I'll restate your points and will add some

Don't mention:
- mining
- blockchain
- crypto (unless it goes into technical details and you are asked how it is implemented)
- satoshi
- forum
- specific exchanges and businesses (unless you've been paid for that, maybe)

Do say:
- "digital gold"
- there never will be more than 21 million of bitcoin in existance
- bitcoin is secured by "advanced mathematical algorithms"
- "no government can repeal laws of mathematics"
- decentralized with no single entity to be shut-down or pressured, just like bittorrent
- quick and low cost payments over internet,
- can be easily and covertly transported over national borders
- negligible transaction fees
- "Disruptive disintermediation" (if audience seems to have above average IQ)
- pseudonymous and potentially anonymous transactions
- accounts cannot be "frozen"
- can make donations to wikileaks etc
- easier to store and transport than gold
- it is just like gold which you can teleport to anyone on the planet
- bitcon.org
- valued below 1$ in Spring 2011, valued at <whatever> dollars now.
- traded on a number of independent exchanges, which set up valuation against fiat currencies.
- potential low cost replacement of interbank settlement networks such as SWIFT

feel free to add to these lists

@all, do not freaking even think to speak to media before reading this.  Wink





-open source
-new market opportunities
-promotes individual responsibility due to insecure wallet implementation
1204  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 23, 2011, 04:04:53 AM
http://youtu.be/TDaFwnOiKVE

An interesting look at how we have bent our technology to serve the monetary system, in turn shaping the world we all share.
1205  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: My comments on trying to sell the r/Bitcoin subreddit: on: July 23, 2011, 03:14:12 AM
More information here.

Ok, so you can't provide any support for this statement?

Mugging and starving are the choices presented in a monetary system.

A monetary system perpetuates structural violence, which is more far reaching and more devastating than physical violence. This discussion is outside of the thread topic, however.
1206  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Is it wrong... on: July 23, 2011, 02:35:43 AM
There is no right or wrong. Your choices are highly influenced by your environment. Examine your environment to determine what influences your thinking process. You can make a better choice after that.
1207  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: My comments on trying to sell the r/Bitcoin subreddit: on: July 22, 2011, 05:23:28 PM
Well Atlas, where i come from people sell facebook fan pages and alikes like hot cakes and i don't see anything wrong with that.
People must be rewarded, if not for more, at least for the time dedicated to it.
I guess some people prefer those guys who try to trademark Bitcoin, never contributing a single bit to it Wink

To all the nay sayers: The man worked for it. Must he starve, instead of trying to capitalize on his time?
Or must he mug an old lady?  Roll Eyes

Mugging and starving are the choices presented in a monetary system.

Prove it.
Well Atlas, where i come from people sell facebook fan pages and alikes like hot cakes and i don't see anything wrong with that.
People must be rewarded, if not for more, at least for the time dedicated to it.
I guess some people prefer those guys who try to trademark Bitcoin, never contributing a single bit to it Wink

To all the nay sayers: The man worked for it. Must he starve, instead of trying to capitalize on his time?
Or must he mug an old lady?  Roll Eyes

Mugging and starving are the choices presented in a monetary system.
...or you could work for a living, like most normal people.

More information here.
1208  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 21, 2011, 09:47:48 AM

An RBE could not exist with "ignorant masses", as opposed to a monetary system which thrives on and indeed requires it.

A free market doesn't need ignorant masses, it could work perfectly fine with a "well educated society".
Stupid people just happen to exist. Even If everybody were more intelligent and educated (what is needed for an RBE), the less wise would be considered stupid.
A free market doesn't need stupid people, but there's it's not necessary to remove them from the system for it to work.


Given a relevant education, I don't see how the idea of imaginary and arbitrary limits on necessary resources comes to fruition. What compels a person that understands that we live on a finite planet to believe that a shared fantasy is conducive to sustaining life?

"Stupid people" don't pop into reality from another dimension. We have decided to promote irrational beliefs and traditions over critical thinking skills.

A monetary system requires mislead, misinformed and uncritical people, which has little to do with intelligence.

1) Nature has very real limits. When you want, the planet is infinite, when you don't want resources are scarce. How is this possible?

2) Stupidity emerges. You don't need planned stupidity although it helps (see public education in the US).

3) Are we stupid because we think money is a great tool and you don't?


Access abundance given the carrying capacity of the earth is not the same as infinite resources.

"...imaginary and arbitrary limits..."
What are those imaginary limits then?

All behavior is emergent, but the environment plays a significant role in the result. A better environment produces better behavior, generally speaking.

So there's no stupid people within the RBE. Wasn't all voluntary? What if people reject the "correct education", whatever that is?

Many people here do not seem to be able to assimilate the ideas I'm talking about very rapidly. That is fine though, because it took me nearly a decade to understand it myself.

A decade, are you serious? I think I've assimilated the main ideas behind the RBE very well, and faster than you. But I still think is not a viable (or desirable, if something is not voluntary there) solution.
I think that your belief "money = bad" is not very scientific. I recommend you a book (that I haven't read yet, just some parts): "Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis" by Ludwig von Mises. There he explains why a society without pricing mechanism is not a good idea.
Have you assimilated my ideas about free money?
I guess you haven't read Gesell's book. That's something you got in common with most libertarians here.
In summary he explains how interest impose artificial limits (but very real limits) and how to make a money system that lacks interest.
He's proposal is not the only way to achieve it. LETS and Ripple can do it too.

You shouldn't assume that when people doesn't agree with you is because they don't understand you.


Those limits imposed in a monetary system where a minority have access to the majority of the resources just because they have the most purchasing power.

More accurately, stupidity would not be encouraged, rewarded or promoted the way it is inside of a monetary system.

I'm sure that you believe that you understand these ideas, but the questions you are asking and the ideas you are promoting indicate that you have much more to learn. I am fortunate in that I enjoy learning, perhaps more than others.
1209  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 21, 2011, 07:08:09 AM
An RBE could not exist with "ignorant masses", as opposed to a monetary system which thrives on and indeed requires it.

A free market doesn't need ignorant masses, it could work perfectly fine with a "well educated society".
Stupid people just happen to exist. Even If everybody were more intelligent and educated (what is needed for an RBE), the less wise would be considered stupid.
A free market doesn't need stupid people, but there's it's not necessary to remove them from the system for it to work.


Given a relevant education, I don't see how the idea of imaginary and arbitrary limits on necessary resources comes to fruition. What compels a person that understands that we live on a finite planet to believe that a shared fantasy is conducive to sustaining life?

"Stupid people" don't pop into reality from another dimension. We have decided to promote irrational beliefs and traditions over critical thinking skills.

A monetary system requires mislead, misinformed and uncritical people, which has little to do with intelligence.

1) Nature has very real limits. When you want, the planet is infinite, when you don't want resources are scarce. How is this possible?

2) Stupidity emerges. You don't need planned stupidity although it helps (see public education in the US).

3) Are we stupid because we think money is a great tool and you don't?


Access abundance given the carrying capacity of the earth is not the same as infinite resources.

All behavior is emergent, but the environment plays a significant role in the result. A better environment produces better behavior, generally speaking.

Many people here do not seem to be able to assimilate the ideas I'm talking about very rapidly. That is fine though, because it took me nearly a decade to understand it myself.
1210  Bitcoin / Wallet software / Re: libbitcoin on: July 21, 2011, 06:59:04 AM
Good effort, thank you so much for doing this work.
1211  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 21, 2011, 06:37:32 AM
So now you would allow for people to exchange money? You have previously stated noone would have rights in this society, and others have stated that noone would be allowed to use currency - something I strangely equate with a ban. These positions are getting rather contradictory.

I think he has been saying that people will voluntarily abandon currency, property rights, and willingness to work for any personal reward, instead choosing to work in a communist-style system where everyone's basic needs are equally rewarded regardless of what they do, thanks to a few people and computers deciding on what's best for everyone, using robots to create those basic needs for everyone, and making sure to limit everyone to only what the earth can support. Those imposed limits being perfectly voluntary, of course. Oh, and this all being on a global scale...

@LightRider

Is this an accurate summary of what you are advocating?

There is no mention of a relevant education for all people, promotion of life sustaining values, an intelligent decentralized global resource tracking and management system, or the implementation of such a society in new city systems. It also implies that people and/or machines "make" decisions, as opposed to arriving at them using the scientific method to determine optimal outcomes. So no.
1212  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: My comments on trying to sell the r/Bitcoin subreddit: on: July 21, 2011, 06:30:00 AM
Well Atlas, where i come from people sell facebook fan pages and alikes like hot cakes and i don't see anything wrong with that.
People must be rewarded, if not for more, at least for the time dedicated to it.
I guess some people prefer those guys who try to trademark Bitcoin, never contributing a single bit to it Wink

To all the nay sayers: The man worked for it. Must he starve, instead of trying to capitalize on his time?
Or must he mug an old lady?  Roll Eyes

Mugging and starving are the choices presented in a monetary system.
1213  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 20, 2011, 07:03:40 PM
An RBE could not exist with "ignorant masses", as opposed to a monetary system which thrives on and indeed requires it.

A free market doesn't need ignorant masses, it could work perfectly fine with a "well educated society".
Stupid people just happen to exist. Even If everybody were more intelligent and educated (what is needed for an RBE), the less wise would be considered stupid.
A free market doesn't need stupid people, but there's it's not necessary to remove them from the system for it to work.


Given a relevant education, I don't see how the idea of imaginary and arbitrary limits on necessary resources comes to fruition. What compels a person that understands that we live on a finite planet to believe that a shared fantasy is conducive to sustaining life?

"Stupid people" don't pop into reality from another dimension. We have decided to promote irrational beliefs and traditions over critical thinking skills.

A monetary system requires mislead, misinformed and uncritical people, which has little to do with intelligence.
1214  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 20, 2011, 05:29:10 AM
I think that currency is a technology we will be better off without. Charity doesn't exist in an RBE because caring for people is not confined to it's own little corner of economic activity, but in fact the basis for common survival.

I don't want to come off as overly condescending here but have you ever looked into the basic history and function of currency? Currency is not a technology. Technology can be used to enhance or manipulate currency, but currency itself is simply a convenient means of free exchange. Long before fiat bills people exchanged shells, feathers, precious metals and other light/valuable items as a means of convenient transaction that didn't require lugging two dead animals to a city square and back to trade. As long as you allow for a free market, people will use some means of currency.

There is no rigid control in an RBE of society, only the promotion of relevant values. Nothing is banned or illegal.

So now you would allow for people to exchange money? You have previously stated noone would have rights in this society, and others have stated that noone would be allowed to use currency - something I strangely equate with a ban. These positions are getting rather contradictory.
Currency, as well as all other man made systems, tools and shared customs etc., are technologies.

You have invented the contradiction. Rights don't exist, so not having them is meaningless. Money is unnecessary, not disallowed.
1215  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Bitcoin is not politically-neutral. on: July 19, 2011, 11:39:48 PM
It makes us more free.

Nothing makes someone more or less free. We are all subject to the laws of nature and are unable to escape from it. The fantasy world of currency, philosophy, politics etc. are irrelevant to physical reality.
1216  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 19, 2011, 10:09:47 PM
I don't confuse virtual reality with actual reality. "Trolling douchebags" are created by real world problems, not a result of online communities.

An RBE would provide greater variety of such ingredients because food production can be incredibly scaled up to allow for it. Since we wouldn't waste so much area, materials time and effort on meaningless activities and goals, then a healthier community would emerge with a better agricultural base.

My point is that trolls and douchebags will always exist, in any community, as will corruption and abuse. Even if it starts just for the sake of being an abusive troll. I don't see how RBE will deal with such a situation, other than empower the trolls in the "science-based decision" sector, who may want to screw with the "ignorant masses."

The unspoken side is that the "trolls and douchebags," and anyone else the technocrats saw as unfit, would not be making it through in this society. This is what Fresco alluded to when saying that those who can't be properly "educated" into the new society would be "another issue."

A planned society without rights is a rigidly controlled society. Life and procreation would ultimately be controlled just as much as the banning of currency.

Such behavior would not likely continue in an RBE because it is not rewarded. Most likely, such persons would change their behavior when they recognize that it is unnecessary, unproductive and not given attention. Technocracy is irrelevant to the ideas being discussed in this thread. There is no rigid control in an RBE of society, only the promotion of relevant values. Nothing is banned or illegal.
1217  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 19, 2011, 10:03:20 PM
I don't confuse virtual reality with actual reality. "Trolling douchebags" are created by real world problems, not a result of online communities.

An RBE would provide greater variety of such ingredients because food production can be incredibly scaled up to allow for it. Since we wouldn't waste so much area, materials time and effort on meaningless activities and goals, then a healthier community would emerge with a better agricultural base.

My point is that trolls and douchebags will always exist, in any community, as will corruption and abuse. Even if it starts just for the sake of being an abusive troll. I don't see how RBE will deal with such a situation, other than empower the trolls in the "science-based decision" sector, who may want to screw with the "ignorant masses."

While such occurrences can't be ruled out completely, a community that is not based on competition, aggressiveness, dominance or false authority is severely less likely to create the conditions for such behavior. An RBE could not exist with "ignorant masses", as opposed to a monetary system which thrives on and indeed requires it.
1218  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 19, 2011, 03:16:11 AM
Mutual trust, respect, care and appreciation.

What do you think about this money called LETS?

I prefer Ripple.


Interesting, but all currency relies of differential advantage, and equality and mutual respect cannot exist in such a system that promotes its own dominance and corrupts those who use it.

Technological power frequently corrupts those who wield it. Why is currency seen as such a threat while technological power controlled by those at the top of your technocracy (Fresco used to use the term himself) is presented only as a utopia free of violence and coercion? Do you not see the potential for abuse there?

Technology used to care for people and provide access abundance is quit dissimilar to monetary systems, which function primarily as a way to prohibit people from obtaining what they need in favor of those who have access to the majority of the money.

And currency used for free trade in a community or as a means of funding charitable acts (thus giving individuals access to all the resources required to contribute to selfless acts) is quite dissimilar from your depiction of all forms of currency-based barter being enslavement. Technology can be used for good or evil, so could a free system of currency. We do not live in a system with a free exchange of currency, which is the problem rather than currency itself.

I think that currency is a technology we will be better off without. Charity doesn't exist in an RBE because caring for people is not confined to it's own little corner of economic activity, but in fact the basis for common survival.
1219  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 19, 2011, 03:12:57 AM
Mutual trust, respect, care and appreciation.

What do you think about this money called LETS?

I prefer Ripple.


Interesting, but all currency relies of differential advantage, and equality and mutual respect cannot exist in such a system that promotes its own dominance and corrupts those who use it.

Technological power frequently corrupts those who wield it. Why is currency seen as such a threat while technological power controlled by those at the top of your technocracy (Fresco used to use the term himself) is presented only as a utopia free of violence and coercion? Do you not see the potential for abuse there?

Technology used to care for people and provide access abundance is quit dissimilar to monetary systems, which function primarily as a way to prohibit people from obtaining what they need in favor of those who have access to the majority of the money.

Have you heard of Second Life, or been there any time in the last few years? That place is a perfect example of how freely-available technology and creativity is easily succumbed to trolling douchebags. And those guys aren't even doing it for money.

Btw, was cooking dinner this evening for tomorrow's dinner party, and had a thought pop into my head:
"I wonder if in RBE I would still be able to eat red onions and red potatoes? I like those cause they have a more potent flavor... Or would RBE limit me to only what I need, which would be plain yellow onions and cheapest potatoes possible, since those are easiest to make, needing least resources, and my "need" for good food doesn't apply in a system where the "need" is just to keep me fed?"

I don't confuse virtual reality with actual reality. "Trolling douchebags" are created by real world problems, not a result of online communities.

An RBE would provide greater variety of such ingredients because food production can be incredibly scaled up to allow for it. Since we wouldn't waste so much area, materials time and effort on meaningless activities and goals, then a healthier community would emerge with a better agricultural base.
1220  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: July 19, 2011, 03:08:27 AM
Mutual trust, respect, care and appreciation.

What do you think about this money called LETS?

I prefer Ripple.


Interesting, but all currency relies of differential advantage, and equality and mutual respect cannot exist in such a system that promotes its own dominance and corrupts those who use it.

No, that's false. mutual respect does exist in lets communities. I don't know how can you believe that rights are an illusion and call for equality. I'm not equal to you and we will never be.


Perhaps it is certainly perceived that way. I am not familiar with such communities, but corruption and abuse is far more likely to occur when such systems are implemented, regardless of the ideal qualities they possess. You are confusing equality of capability and character with social status, which is what I refer to when I speak of it. Money highly influences social status, causing inequality of access and limiting potential.
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