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1341  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 11, 2011, 07:24:48 PM
In defense of Log0s' argument, the fact that a bitcoin has no base value means that it can collapse to zero. Simply because it can collapse to zero means that people will fear that possibility and it is more likely to occur. Gold is a great example. The price of gold is above $1600 this week. We can never guess the 'true' value of gold, but I imagine a huge number of people would buy an ounce above $50 even if they believed no one else in the world would exchange them. When the price of gold dramatically tanked from $1950 to $1550 many people panic sold, but absolutely no one feared that the price would fall to zero. Bitcoin on the other hand is much more susceptible to panic sells. Even if we imagine a higher volume and lower volatility, a crash has no theoretic bottom and that fact alone will lead to more dramatic crashes.


So we have one  investment that can drop from $1950 to $50 and other one that can drop from $1950 to $0.  Is that a big difference?
1342  Economy / Speculation / What is doing that guy with 2k BTC on th? on: October 11, 2011, 03:17:12 PM
He keeps moving it around a little bit lower than the price at mtgox.  I don't think he wants to sell it - because  in that case he'd just transfer it to mtgox - it takes only an hour and he'd get a better price.  I suspect he is rather trying to suppress the mtgox price so that he can buy there - while having little risk that someone will buy his 2k because at th this is a huge amount and it is much slower to send money there then to send btc from there to mtgox.
1343  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 11, 2011, 02:51:56 PM
The use value of gold is just a little fraction of it's exchange value - so why people buy it? Because they expect someone else to buy it back from them.
Indirect exchange is only one of multiple reasons people buy gold.  There are many directly serviceable uses of gold and at least one of those reasons (ornamentation) were why people wanted to acquire gold before it was ever used for indirect exchange. 


Gold is used as ornamentation mostly *because* it is expensive.  The technical uses of gold are tiny.  Most of gold value is what you call indirect - and it relies on other people buying it back from you later.  You can say that the tiny fraction of what you pay for gold is somehow backed by it's serviceable use - but what with the rest?  In bitcoins you don't have that tiny fraction - only the rest, but in exchange it is more convenient as a medium of exchange, in the internet age, then gold.  If you read the books you lectured me about - you'd found out that the reason gold was used as money was because it was a convenient medium of exchange.

Personally I don't like many of the bitcoin system solutions - but bitcoins are money.
1344  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 11, 2011, 01:57:33 PM
Why people would sell you something for bitcoin?  Because they believe that later someone will buy that bitcoin from them.

And since a bitcoin is not a directly serviceable good, that is the *only* reason to buy bitcoins.  It's commonly known as the "greater fool theory": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

Isn't it nice to know that the entire "bitcoin economy" is based on everyone expecting to find a greater fool to buy their bitcoins?

You seem to be very emotional about this - but call it as you wish - this is the same thing with all money and with gold in particular.  The use value of gold is just a little fraction of it's exchange value - so why people buy it? Because they expect someone else to buy it back from them.

Bitcoin is a currency - how it emerged is not relevant for the definition.  If it will survive is a completely different question - lot's of currencies are dead now.
1345  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 11, 2011, 07:21:39 AM
How money emerged naturally is not that important, believing that it can do it only in one way is like people believed that only nature can produce organic matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism) until  Friedrich Wöhler synthesised urea.

It's obvious to me that you do not have an adequate understanding of how money emerges.

This book, especially Chapters 1-3, will be a good start: http://mises.org/rothbard/mes.asp

If you really want dig deeper, you can read this book: http://mises.org/resources.aspx?Id=3250&html=1


When I say that the origin to money is not that important you lecture me with 'you do not have an adequate understanding of how money emerges'?  It's obvious that you are not paying attention to the arguments and only discuss with the straw man in your own head.

You challenged my alleged belief that money can emerge only in one way.  So I provided you links to material that explains how money naturally emerges, and then I provided some simple explanations as to a couple of ways you could theoretically create an artificially determined money using the knowledge of how money emerges naturally, one way being through propaganda, and the other through impractical direct physical manipulation of the brains that you want to value your artificial money.



That's all very reasonable argumentation - but writing 'you do not have an adequate understanding of how money emerges' - is not - it is only an insult.

Ad rem - I don't believe you exhausted all possible ways that money can emerge.  Bitcoin has already emerged as money - you can exchange it for goods etc and in this respect it is no different then gold.  Why people would sell you something for bitcoin?  Because they believe that later someone will buy that bitcoin from them.   This is already happening and it did not involve any direct brain manipulation, you can argue that it involved propaganda and misleading - there sure were some dubious claims all over the internet about bitcoins - but this is not different from any other tradeable asset and in particular with gold.

Knowledge of how money emerges is extremely important if you want people to adopt a specific money.  Having that knowledge helps you not waste your time on certain things, or make stupid mistakes.  And I have a hard time imagining someone that understands how money emerges would say that how it emerges doesn't matter that much when talking about the adoption of a supposed money, so the simplest explanation was that you lack some understanding of the topic.

The simplest explanation is that your imagination is limited.
1346  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 11, 2011, 05:09:16 AM
Money can only emerge in an economy if it is first a directly serviceable good.  If something provides no direct service to anyone (meaning it does not provide a direct means to anyone's desired ends, and is therefore not valued by anyone), why would anyone buy it?

Because they think someone else will in turn exchange it for something valuable.  This is based on speculation just like with all other kinds of money and it is really the essence of money.  The use value of all gold in the world is much less then it's current exchange value - the difference is what makes gold money.  Bitcoin does not have use value at all and this is what makes it 'pure money'.

How money emerged naturally is not that important, believing that it can do it only in one way is like people believed that only nature can produce organic matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism) until  Friedrich Wöhler synthesised urea.

It's obvious to me that you do not have an adequate understanding of how money emerges.

This book, especially Chapters 1-3, will be a good start: http://mises.org/rothbard/mes.asp

If you really want dig deeper, you can read this book: http://mises.org/resources.aspx?Id=3250&html=1


When I say that the origin to money is not that important you lecture me with 'you do not have an adequate understanding of how money emerges'?  It's obvious that you are not paying attention to the arguments and only discuss with the straw man in your own head.
1347  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 10, 2011, 09:11:45 PM
Money can only emerge in an economy if it is first a directly serviceable good.  If something provides no direct service to anyone (meaning it does not provide a direct means to anyone's desired ends, and is therefore not valued by anyone), why would anyone buy it?

Because they think someone else will in turn exchange it for something valuable.  This is based on speculation just like with all other kinds of money and it is really the essence of money.  The use value of all gold in the world is much less then it's current exchange value - the difference is what makes gold money.  Bitcoin does not have use value at all and this is what makes it 'pure money'.

How money emerged naturally is not that important, believing that it can do it only in one way is like people believed that only nature can produce organic matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism) until  Friedrich Wöhler synthesised urea.
1348  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 10, 2011, 08:10:20 PM
Dollars don't provide any what you call 'direct service' (if you don't use them as a wall paper that is), or 'use value' (in Marks terms I think), they only value is 'exchange value'.  

Dollars, like all other fiat money, originated as a commodity backed currency, either with direct backing of a commodity, or indirect backing of a commodity by being backed by another currency that originated as a commodity backed currency.  Bitcoin is not a commodity in itself (only directly serviceable goods can become a commodity), and has no direct or indirect commodity backing it.

It is possible that money started as commodity - but the point is that what differentiates money from commodity is that it has much higher 'exchange value' then 'use value'.  This is really what defines money - so when you have something that has only exchange value and no use value - then it is kind of 'pure money'.
1349  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 10, 2011, 07:11:29 PM
The Bitcoin system, which is a very ingenious system, has the potential to provide a direct service, but does a bitcoin itself provide a direct service to people?  The only direct service the Bitcoin system that one could argue it currently provides is to "send" bitcoins to others.  But if a bitcoin does not provide a direct service, why are people willing to exchange goods for them?  I believe there is among Bitcoin users a widespread misunderstanding of Bitcoin, and after so much discussion on this thread, a misunderstanding of the concept of money itself.  This calls into question the value of the Bitcoin system since it's only direct service is to allow people to "send" an alleged good which provides no direct service.

I could create a ledger with some paper and a pencil, calling the numbers in the ledger "nums", and after someone fulfills some requirement I can write +50 "nums" to their account.  Then, for example, they can then have me write -25 "nums" to their account and +25 "nums" to someone else's account.  But what direct service do "nums" provide?  Why would anyone want to pay a cost (whether it's meeting some arbitrary requirement or offering a good) to acquire any "nums"?  The only difference between "nums" and bitcoins (and this difference is actually irrelevant) is one of who or what is trusted.  Even assuming you had full trust in me and my ability to keep the ledger accurate and secure, "nums" still provide no direct service to anyone.  My ledger service has the potential to provide a direct service, but the "nums" it keeps account of do not provide any direct service, so would my ledger service actually be providing a direct service to people by keeping account of "nums"?  I don't think so.
You are right that it all revolves around trust.  The fact that you can buy something for dollars (or gold) is because other people trust that whey they in turn need something they'll be able to turn the dollar they received into something else.  This is the same case with bitcoin.   Dollars don't provide any what you call 'direct service' (if you don't use them as a wall paper that is), or 'use value' (in Marks terms I think), they only value is 'exchange value'.  
1350  Economy / Speculation / Re: Anyone knows when google updates trends? on: October 10, 2011, 11:20:05 AM
The more bitcoins people own the more likely they are to tell others and the more likely that person investigates bitcoin. (up to a certain point)
This effect is stronger so there is a reason for it to lag behind.

the 30 day graph is updated every day, 4 lines/weeks and 7 notches Wink

Is there any exact time when they usually update this?
1351  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Technical Analysis on: October 10, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
It just needs to be suggestive.  It fails on me - because of the inconsistencies - if the line is drawn once in one way next week in another way - it loses credibility.  The question is if I am a common case - maybe not.
1352  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Technical Analysis on: October 10, 2011, 07:11:29 AM
The lines are again a little bit lower.  I have also seen 2.8 as the long term trend line border - so I guess you still have lot's of space for these adjustments.
1353  Economy / Speculation / Anyone knows when google updates trends? on: October 09, 2011, 07:34:14 PM
Currently it is up - but I would like to know when they are supposed to update it. 

I know people say it is a lagging indicator - but I think that some people trade by it and common sense dictates that people first need to learn about bitcoin before they buy it.
1354  Economy / Speculation / Re: Long-Term Bulls on: October 08, 2011, 11:01:45 PM

Alas they are really hidden long-term bulls.

Personally I think bitcoin has yet one more bubble ahead and possibly even bigger one then the last time.  But I am not a long term bull - because the electricity cost look completely crazy for me, I am waiting for the next digital currency that will not bear this cost.
1355  Economy / Speculation / Re: The Fallacy of Having to "Absorb Bitcoins" on: October 08, 2011, 02:32:54 PM
The number is known - the unknown is if it will be met.
1356  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Technical Analysis on: October 08, 2011, 02:31:15 PM
I remember in middle September you wrote that the buying zone is 3.5 to 5  - now it is supposed to be 3.4 to 5.  Is the long term trend actually going down?
1357  Economy / Speculation / Re: The Fallacy of Having to "Absorb Bitcoins" on: October 08, 2011, 02:24:44 PM
The fact that a certain amount of cash must be dumped in the economy each month to sustain the price is beyond dispute, it's simple arithmetic. A certain price drives a certain difficulty, and imposes certain HW/electricity costs to the miners, so those miners either have to unload the coins on the market or foot the bill (it's the same thing, really). So if the cash influx stops unexpectedly, the price will certainly drop.

What you might mean is that the market has already priced in this daily cash influx. The all knowing hand of the market knows the future cash influx variations. Well, the hand of the market might have made a mistake, it might have overestimated the supply of su... errr investors. The market is not taken by surprise by the 7200 coins/day; the surprise is the low $ quantity seeking those coins, and the price reflects that discovery.

Yes, the market has already priced in the daily cash influx.  That is what I'm getting at.  The market is assuming that there will be enough investors to buy all remaining coins at current prices.  When the price drops, it's because the market doesn't believe 21 million coins are worth the current price.

So if there is not enough of this daily influx - then this means the market made a mistake.  What is that minimal daily influx - this is exactly the 7200 x current price - if this is not absorbed then this means the market made a mistake and bitcoins were overpriced - we are back at the same number.
1358  Economy / Speculation / Re: We are on our way to 3.5-3.7! on: October 07, 2011, 08:10:38 PM
I don't quite believed in the long term trend - but many did and that line was for sure broken now so I expect further down pressure.
1359  Economy / Speculation / Re: We are on our way to 3.5-3.7! on: October 07, 2011, 07:25:10 PM
It remains at above $4 but looks to be quite bearish, anymore hacking or unpleasant news will see it dive even more.
It's just waiting for th to catch up.
1360  Economy / Speculation / Re: Rally is starting on: October 06, 2011, 02:47:00 PM
As soon as enough traders become convinced it will not move, it will move.

I have quite a few grand that finally transferred into Dwolla a week or two ago. Usually I buy right away, but I'm now one of those waiting to be convinced it won't move before I help move it...
(The Dwolla lady that called me, wondering what the heck, and verifying my identity, sounded very nice. I just hope Dwolla doesn't get Goxed)

But you are not selling what you have yet?

No, I'm not. Whatever I put into it over the course of the Summer I'm still holding on to, and have no plans to get rid of (even if I overpaid)

So it is not bottom yet.

Don't take this personally - but you are the 'long investor' with what I judged the most honest posts - so I like to take you as a representation of this type.
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