[ANN] Sia - Decentralized Storage

[DStefanov]

One week nobody wrote! What's wrong with this innovative coin?
Hash rate (last 25 blocks) grow, Size of active file contracts grows and ... the price and interest fall!
Taek, will there be some upgrade, improvement or something ..... soon?\

Regards!

[ol92]

One week nobody wrote! What's wrong with this innovative coin?
Hash rate (last 25 blocks) grow, Size of active file contracts grows and ... the price and interest fall!
Taek, will there be some upgrade, improvement or something ..... soon?\

Regards!

You may see :
https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia.
Dev are active on this project.

For a big rise, we may wait for some months until a more user friendly storage gui and some android / ios app.

[killerstorm]

I recently tried Sia for the first time, I'll describe my experience with it as a user, maybe this feedback will have you to improve the product.

I found Sia via a reddit ad (I think it was a promoted link, although not completely sure), I got really excited because I'm actually looking for cloud storage for backup purposes, and other projects like maidsafe and storj don't seem to be ready, and I haven't heard about Sia before (even though I'm following news).

I am myself a Bitcoin user (and a developer) for 4+ years so I'm not easily scared with bad UX.

1. I downloaded Sia UI and launched it in a VM with 32-bit Ubuntu precise. Initial experience was quite good, it was easy to launch the app and UI looks great.
2. Block download is kinda slow, but i have fairly slow networking over here, so that was a part of the problem.
3. I bought some siacoins on an exchange and decided to transfer them to the wallet while it's downloading the blockhain.
4. So, create wallet experience... 29 word mnemonic, WTF? Most Bitcoin wallets have 12-14 words. 128 bits of entropy should be enough, maybe 160 bits if you want to err on safe side, but 512 bits are an overkill. You should read up on key size recommendations. (See below.)
5. Now to generate password I need to "unlock wallet", and it asks for password. What password? I thought there is a password separate from that huge-ass mnemonic as is the case with BIP-39, and the form field looked like one should type a small password into it, but having no other password (I first tried an empty one) I pasted this 29-word phrase and it worked. Well, it was unlocking it for like a minute, so it might be that KDF you're using is also an overkill, haven't seen anything like that in Bitcoin world.
6. I finally got an address and sent coins to it.
7. I noticed that UI is constantly using CPU even when nothing happens. `top` shows ~5 Sia processes besides siad, each eating 10-20% CPU, WTF? This might be because it's a VM without graphic acceleration, I dunno, but that's still kinda WTFish. Processes go away when I close UI and get back when I launch it again. CPU usage is really annoying as I'm using laptop and it makes fan noise when Sia is running.
8. siad got stuck with blockchain download at a certain point and I restarted it, this helped.
9. After siad restart wallet is locked again, so I needed to unlock it. It doesn't even show addresses before wallet is unlocked, why?
10. So I need to enter the large passphrase again. This is a major security/crypto fail. There is no way user will actually remember 20+ words, so he will have them in a file on his computer. So unless it's stored in password manager, it is as secure as just storing seed in Sia database. I recommend to look into how Bitcoin wallets work, they actually have pretty decent UX.
11. Also if you want Sia to be used outside of Bitcoin community, it needs to be even friendlier than Bitcoin wallets. Ideally no passphrase should be necessary just to try it out, it should appear only when user is serious.
12. siad got stuck at block 21664, no restarts help. Also it managed to download 2+ GB of data, while consensus.db is only ~100MB.

So this project looks very interesting, but I'm afraid it will take a while until it's usable by people other than devout fans.

A bit on key sizes: DJB recently posted a blog on key sizes: http://blog.cr.yp.to/20151120-batchattacks.html
Short summary is that 128-bit equivalent security should be enough for now, unless there is some weakness and/or attacker is able to attack many keys at once. 128-bit AES is not good, but if you're using a decent KDF 128-bit passphrase is OK. Otherwise, it probably doesn't make sense to use crypto stronger than 128 bits for keys if you use EC cryptography which is only 128-bit strong. Using 512-bit passphrase is kinda like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/96/01/bb/9601bb26d756a9a18ae5cee170fa1188.jpg

[DStefanov]

When trying to access the http://explore.sia.tech/ gives me this: Get http://localhost:9000/explorer/status: dial tcp 127.0.0.1:9000: connection refused
Does anyone know what happened?
@Taek has long not been seen here! Is there reason to believe that the coin dies!

[ol92]

When trying to access the http://explore.sia.tech/ gives me this: Get http://localhost:9000/explorer/status: dial tcp 127.0.0.1:9000: connection refused
Does anyone know what happened?
@Taek has long not been seen here! Is there reason to believe that the coin dies!

The explorer worked yesterday, latest commit is from 5 days : there is not much to worry yet.
PS : https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia/pull/850 : latest comment from dev 2 days ago.
I prefer them being more active on github than on bitcointalk!

[spiler]

When trying to access the http://explore.sia.tech/ gives me this: Get http://localhost:9000/explorer/status: dial tcp 127.0.0.1:9000: connection refused
Does anyone know what happened?
@Taek has long not been seen here! Is there reason to believe that the coin dies!

http://explorestaging.sia.tech/#/

[Taek]

One week nobody wrote! What's wrong with this innovative coin?
Hash rate (last 25 blocks) grow, Size of active file contracts grows and ... the price and interest fall!
Taek, will there be some upgrade, improvement or something ..... soon?\

Regards!

We're trying to move a lot of the posting to https://forum.sia.tech, because this thread was getting too difficult to follow. I think I lot of people did migrate, and that's why we're seeing fewer posts on bitcointalk.

I'm not sure why the overall interest in the coin is falling. Pehaps because it's not yet easy enough to use, so people try it out and get disenfranchised. It's currently very difficult to acquire siacoins unless you are already integrated with the altcoin community. We are working on the user experience, but also on things like press.

When trying to access the http://explore.sia.tech/ gives me this: Get http://localhost:9000/explorer/status: dial tcp 127.0.0.1:9000: connection refused
Does anyone know what happened?
@Taek has long not been seen here! Is there reason to believe that the coin dies!

I'm right here, the coin is not dying. We've been continuing development, both on the software and on the community. Things have slowed down a bit because we've been focusing on hiring and on fundraising, but now that much of it is behind us, we'll be back to programming and spreading the word.

When trying to access the http://explore.sia.tech/ gives me this: Get http://localhost:9000/explorer/status: dial tcp 127.0.0.1:9000: connection refused
Does anyone know what happened?
@Taek has long not been seen here! Is there reason to believe that the coin dies!

http://explorestaging.sia.tech/#/

The staged explorer is not yet as feature complete as the original, we hope to have that finished and stable in the next 2 weeks.

[bizz]

I'd suggest getting at least one more exchange trading SC. Getting on Bittrex and CCEX might be a good choice for some higher volumes and more exposure.

[chrysophylax]

I'd suggest getting at least one more exchange trading SC. Getting on Bittrex and CCEX might be a good choice for some higher volumes and more exposure.

exchanges will come as the wallet / code matures and becomes a lot more stable and usable ...

time and the collective effort of the these awesome devs will ensure that ...

#crysx

[Tobo]

One week nobody wrote! What's wrong with this innovative coin?
Hash rate (last 25 blocks) grow, Size of active file contracts grows and ... the price and interest fall!
Taek, will there be some upgrade, improvement or something ..... soon?\
Regards!

The best way to follow this project is to sign up its the slack - http://slackin.sia.tech
And forum - https://forum.sia.tech.

[Taek]

I recently tried Sia for the first time, I'll describe my experience with it as a user, maybe this feedback will have you to improve the product.

I found Sia via a reddit ad (I think it was a promoted link, although not completely sure), I got really excited because I'm actually looking for cloud storage for backup purposes, and other projects like maidsafe and storj don't seem to be ready, and I haven't heard about Sia before (even though I'm following news).

I am myself a Bitcoin user (and a developer) for 4+ years so I'm not easily scared with bad UX.

1. I downloaded Sia UI and launched it in a VM with 32-bit Ubuntu precise. Initial experience was quite good, it was easy to launch the app and UI looks great.
2. Block download is kinda slow, but i have fairly slow networking over here, so that was a part of the problem.
3. I bought some siacoins on an exchange and decided to transfer them to the wallet while it's downloading the blockhain.
4. So, create wallet experience... 29 word mnemonic, WTF? Most Bitcoin wallets have 12-14 words. 128 bits of entropy should be enough, maybe 160 bits if you want to err on safe side, but 512 bits are an overkill. You should read up on key size recommendations. (See below.)
5. Now to generate password I need to "unlock wallet", and it asks for password. What password? I thought there is a password separate from that huge-ass mnemonic as is the case with BIP-39, and the form field looked like one should type a small password into it, but having no other password (I first tried an empty one) I pasted this 29-word phrase and it worked. Well, it was unlocking it for like a minute, so it might be that KDF you're using is also an overkill, haven't seen anything like that in Bitcoin world.
6. I finally got an address and sent coins to it.
7. I noticed that UI is constantly using CPU even when nothing happens. `top` shows ~5 Sia processes besides siad, each eating 10-20% CPU, WTF? This might be because it's a VM without graphic acceleration, I dunno, but that's still kinda WTFish. Processes go away when I close UI and get back when I launch it again. CPU usage is really annoying as I'm using laptop and it makes fan noise when Sia is running.
8. siad got stuck with blockchain download at a certain point and I restarted it, this helped.
9. After siad restart wallet is locked again, so I needed to unlock it. It doesn't even show addresses before wallet is unlocked, why?
10. So I need to enter the large passphrase again. This is a major security/crypto fail. There is no way user will actually remember 20+ words, so he will have them in a file on his computer. So unless it's stored in password manager, it is as secure as just storing seed in Sia database. I recommend to look into how Bitcoin wallets work, they actually have pretty decent UX.
11. Also if you want Sia to be used outside of Bitcoin community, it needs to be even friendlier than Bitcoin wallets. Ideally no passphrase should be necessary just to try it out, it should appear only when user is serious.
12. siad got stuck at block 21664, no restarts help. Also it managed to download 2+ GB of data, while consensus.db is only ~100MB.

So this project looks very interesting, but I'm afraid it will take a while until it's usable by people other than devout fans.

A bit on key sizes: DJB recently posted a blog on key sizes: http://blog.cr.yp.to/20151120-batchattacks.html
Short summary is that 128-bit equivalent security should be enough for now, unless there is some weakness and/or attacker is able to attack many keys at once. 128-bit AES is not good, but if you're using a decent KDF 128-bit passphrase is OK. Otherwise, it probably doesn't make sense to use crypto stronger than 128 bits for keys if you use EC cryptography which is only 128-bit strong. Using 512-bit passphrase is kinda like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/96/01/bb/9601bb26d756a9a18ae5cee170fa1188.jpg

I meant to respond to this earlier, got lost in the todo list.

Slow blockchain: I don't think that's a huge problem for most people, it's annoying, but not a dealbreaker.

29 word mnemonic: it was a developer mistake, we had meant to do 15 but forgot to change some of the constants. At this point, fixing it would require creating a lot of compatibility code. 29 words is equivalent to 256bits of entropy, 15 words is 128bits (12 words @ 10.666 bits of entropy each, plus 3 checksum words). The very least that we could do is 12 words, and maybe 10 if we expanded the dictionary from 1628 words to ~10,000 words. Any way you slice it though, it would take a lot of work to drop below 10 words, and once you are writing 10 words 29 really isn't that much more effort. Both of them are already beyond what can be memorized by the vast majority of people. With significant pressure, you can expect to see 15 word passphrases at some point in the 05x cycle. But they aren't going to get much shorter than that any time soon. And again, it's not supposed to be memorized, it's supposed to be written down. It's based off of systems that people expressed preference for, including the Qora wallet and the Monero wallet. If the password is stored on a file in the computer next to other passwords, this is still more secure than having a breakable or unencrypted wallet in the Sia folder, and attacker that compromises the Sia folder may not know where the user's specific password folder is, or may not have the system permissions to access it. When you talk about 'Bitcoin wallets', can you give explicit examples of wallets that do things well? There are many Bitcoin wallets with awful UX and it's not good enough to tell me to scout them out.

The mnemonic is to provide secure encryption on the private keys, using a smaller passphrase to encrypt the mnemonic... would defeat the point? There is an option in 05x to store the mnemonic on your computer in plaintext. This is not recommended, but some users are comfortable with that security/convenience tradeoff.

Unlocking the wallet takes a while because it currently processes the entire blockchain to scan for relevant outputs. The wallet doesn't know which public keys to look for because it doesn't keep them on disk, it needs the passphrase before it knows what to scan for. This is just an inefficient implementation, we can speed it up significantly with a few changes. That takes dev time, and will happen eventually.

On UI CPU usage, it's based on chromium. Does chrome use similar resources when running? If so, there's not much we can do about it. If not, we can take note. There are a number of things in the UI that are probably not very efficient. Ongoing, we are working to improve performance.

Siad got stuck: what version of siad are you using, and what is the speed of your internet connection? Also, how many minutes/hours did you wait for it to get unstuck? The most recent version (0.4. doesn't usually have problems getting stuck, and I think everything past 0.4.6 would usually get unstuck after a few hours.

[killerstorm]

When you talk about 'Bitcoin wallets', can you give explicit examples of wallets that do things well?

Electrum, for example. It's quite popular and I haven't heard people complaining neither about usability nor about security.

The mnemonic is to provide secure encryption on the private keys, using a smaller passphrase to encrypt the mnemonic... would defeat the point?

Well, file + passphrase is a common scheme (user for ssh, pgp keys etc.), the idea is that if attacker steals a file it might be prohibitively expensive to crack the passphrase, or at least give owner time to react to breach of security.

In case with BIP-39, mnemonic is not encrypted, but instead seed is generated as PBKDF2(mnemonic, passphrase), thus seed depends both on file and user input.

Unlocking the wallet takes a while because it currently processes the entire blockchain to scan for relevant outputs. The wallet doesn't know which public keys to look for because it doesn't keep them on disk,

OK, I'm just used to Bitcoin wallets which have access to public keys even when wallet is locked.

Siad got stuck: what version of siad are you using, and what is the speed of your internet connection? Also, how many minutes/hours did you wait for it to get unstuck? The most recent version (0.4. doesn't usually have problems getting stuck, and I think everything past 0.4.6 would usually get unstuck after a few hours.

I'm using 0.4.8. My internet connection is slow, something like 100 KB/s, but it was enough for siad to download 2 gigabytes worth of something.

I waited for many hours. I saw it connecting to different peers, downloading something, but blockchain remained at 21664. I'll try to start over, let me know if you want to look at the stuck consensus.db.

BTW sometimes it shows 0.0.0.0 and 127.0.0.1 in the list of peers, what is that?

[superresistant]

 
Thanks a lot killerstorm for the feedback.

Personally I am fine with 15 or 29 word mnemonic because I just write them somewhere. I don't trust my memory to memorize 15 or 29 words.
You always need at least a backup.

I can't wait to see people using Sia as a storage.
If the devs succeed, the demand will be huge.

[MinermanNC]

Thanks a lot killerstorm for the feedback.

Personally I am fine with 15 or 29 word mnemonic because I just write them somewhere. I don't trust my memory to memorize 15 or 29 words.
You always need at least a backup.

I can't wait to see people using Sia as a storage.
If the devs succeed, the demand will be huge.

Like many I am being patient with Sia, its coming and yes demand will be huge!

As far as the 29 word pass, I just copied and pasted it to a notepad file, copy and paste when unlocking wallet. Of course keep it well tucked away on your Pc and on another flash drive etc. as not to be easily found if ever hacked

[Taek]

As far as the 29 word pass, I just copied and pasted it to a notepad file, copy and paste when unlocking wallet. Of course keep it well tucked away on your Pc and on another flash drive etc. as not to be easily found if ever hacked

It'd be pretty easy to scan the computer for a set of words that are used in the mneonics, keeping the file on-disk is not going to protect you against a sufficiently sophisticated hacker (a full computer scan takes a while but is not hard to write if you've already got access to the machine).

[mishax1]

New figures..   Difficulty 7827     (http://explore.sia.tech/) 

Is that high or low ?

[killerstorm]

On UI CPU usage, it's based on chromium. Does chrome use similar resources when running? If so, there's not much we can do about it. If not, we can take note. There are a number of things in the UI that are probably not very efficient. Ongoing, we are working to improve performance.

It turned out that it's so CPU-hungry only while siad is downloading the blockchain.CPU usage isn't a problem when it's fully synced. Perhaps siad sends lots of events during syncing or something like that...

Also, how many minutes/hours did you wait for it to get unstuck?

So I deleted consensus.db and started over. It got stuck at 21664 again, but after some time went back to 205xx, then went further to 22040 and got stuck again for many hours (I tried restarting, reconnecting, etc).

I then tried a faster connection, and it helped: after 5 minutes or so it went further and eventually got fully synced.

To me it looks like there are several blockchain forks and siad is having a problem getting the latest one on a slowish connection.

So now I tried uploading and downloading some files. It worked, but I found several issues:

1. It's hard to figure out how much storing a file costs (or have costed, after the fact). (*)
2. I noticed it generates a bunch of transactions with wildly different sums, e.g. one is 0.02 S another is 5.4 S. Is that due to different prices or size is different too?
3. No information about redundancy.
4. Contract duration is specified in blocks, which is cryptic. I figured out that inter-block time is probably 10 minutes, then 6000 blocks is ~42 days.
5. The share box, after you opened it, it's impossible to close without restarting UI.
6. i find it strange that transaction list is not automatically updated, looks kinda confusing.
7. "Estimated competitive price" fluctuates wildly (I saw 5, 750 and some really huge number) and doesn't seem to be related to estimated cost on file tab. (E.g. estimated price is 750 S when cost is 220 S).
8. No notification after download is complete.
9. Most users will probably want to store files for a duration longer than a month, will it automatically refresh files? Can it refresh without downloading them? Do they need to be re-uploaded each time?

*: I tried to calculate it from balance changes, apparently it shows I spent 64 S so far to store 3 files 33 MB of files. This implies a cost of 1939 S / GB, which is quite a bit more than 220 S / GB estimate it shows now.

But actually there was a glitch: The first time I tried to upload these files I had to abort I had to abort it and restart siad at "processing" phase due to system thrashing on low memory, and it seems like money was spent even though upload wasn't completed... But it still doesn't explain difference in price, unless it was spending money repeatedly. Transaction list looks weird, there is a lot of small transactions, but also three spending 6.84 S (three transactions with identical values but different hash and time) and two spending 8.15 S.

[MinermanNC]

As far as the 29 word pass, I just copied and pasted it to a notepad file, copy and paste when unlocking wallet. Of course keep it well tucked away on your Pc and on another flash drive etc. as not to be easily found if ever hacked

It'd be pretty easy to scan the computer for a set of words that are used in the mneonics, keeping the file on-disk is not going to protect you against a sufficiently sophisticated hacker (a full computer scan takes a while but is not hard to write if you've already got access to the machine).

True, I guess its just a matter balancing the risk verses convenience  But I do definitely agree it can be discovered if a determined hacker so desires.  suppose it would be wise to at least lock/encrypt the folder the pass file is in....

[Madmax666]

Why price is falling such like this?

[Tobo]

Why price is falling such like this?

Because the price is only driven by news and speculation at this time.