Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[madsusies]

I was pretty excited about getting a BFL mining rig but it looks like I can't even take that gamble now since the queue is so big!

How big do you think the queue is?  I personally think it's worth the price; if a person can do afford it.  But I wasn't aware there is a queue report out there?  I haven't see it yet.  Mind pointing me in the right direction?  If I find it I'll edit this post.  thx.

There are romors they do not ship anything till June, the chip now get in CH then back to KA 

[Baloo]

I still have hope...   

[Rampion]

I was pretty excited about getting a BFL mining rig but it looks like I can't even take that gamble now since the queue is so big!

How big do you think the queue is?  I personally think it's worth the price; if a person can do afford it.  But I wasn't aware there is a queue report out there?  I haven't see it yet.  Mind pointing me in the right direction?  If I find it I'll edit this post.  thx.

There is a backlog queue of at least 30.000 orders. They say that once they start to ship they will be shipping 10.000 units per month. Even if that it's true (I doubt it), and considering that many orders are composed by more than 1 unit, I wouldn't count on getting an order placed today before the end of 2013.

And please consider also that it's quite possible that no one will receive NOTHING at all. Everything looks very scammy at the moment with BFL.

[PassiTheApe]

I kind of believe in the good in people^^ I placed the small order for one Jalapeno. I really hope everything works fine. I had a bad feeling from the beginning even before I bought it and still have it. I´m just saying: IF they are just playing with our money and won´t give us anything they are still being observed by institutions that check the security of a company. Somehow they are still under federal regulations. They´re not the Mafia for Gods sake

[Rampion]

I kind of believe in the good in people^^ I placed the small order for one Jalapeno. I really hope everything works fine. I had a bad feeling from the beginning even before I bought it and still have it. I´m just saying: IF they are just playing with our money and won´t give us anything they are still being observed by institutions that check the security of a company. Somehow they are still under federal regulations. They´re not the Mafia for Gods sake

Well, good faith or not, their numbers don't add up. +30.000 orders in the backlog (multi-units orders, most likely), an announced capacity of delivering 10.000 units per order, and they're still saying an order placed today will be shipped in June? They are saying this since January, and it's April. And still taking in preorders like it's Christmas.

Come on...

[dobatron81]

^^Merry Christmas.  As for the block size/difficulty--as it went up from 4mil to 6.9mil the value of BTC has almost tripled as far as I can tell.  And as for BFL, all good things come to those who wait.  If you ordered late 2012 then you'll be on the upside of the curve...it's the miners who order when actual products hit the market that will be behind the curve the most.  It seems Avalon batch #3 which was only supposed to be 600 has a queue of like 9k+ so maybe they are following the new standard.  But an ASIC in the hand is worth 10 in the bush...

[Minor Miner]

^^Merry Christmas.  As for the block size/difficulty--as it went up from 4mil to 6.9mil the value of BTC has almost tripled as far as I can tell.  And as for BFL, all good things come to those who wait.  If you ordered late 2012 then you'll be on the upside of the curve...it's the miners who order when actual products hit the market that will be behind the curve the most.  It seems Avalon batch #3 which was only supposed to be 600 has a queue of like 9k+ so maybe they are following the new standard.  But an ASIC in the hand is worth 10 in the bush...

please cite your source for the size of avalon batch III?
BTW, does anyone know if "600" units are 3 card equivalents?  ie.  450 4 card units?

[Jama]

I'm so on the edge about this.
4 of us are wanting to go 25% in each.
But the more I read the more I have been put off.
We all have the cash but it now after reading around it looks a bit scammy

[spacegoat]

I have this feeling that all the idiots who scream that BFL is a scam will just disappear and make new accounts later this year. And there will be a few nuts that believe that hundreds of forum users are being paid by BFL to act like they got working ASIC's.

did you ever get your asic?  I'm sure it would be videotaped and put on youtube.  i just can't find it.  i am searching for everything...  oh wait you said this back in september

what madness

[aslam768]

I don't think anybody still believes that BFL is a scam.

[Minor Miner]

I don't think anybody still believes that BFL is a scam.

What would you call taking money for something that you have no ability to deliver?   They made unrealistic claims about power and shipping more than just once.    and took 29,000 orders for something at some point they realized THEY COULD NOT MAKE.   yet the specs never changed on the site nor did the shipping estimates.   What would that be?   Just liars, not scammers?   Semantics.

[spacegoat]

ok so what i have read here
bfl ceo is a convicted felon for 25 million dollars of mail fraud
they have been promising delivery of said products since august of last year.  bryan micons youtube video shows a total ass jsh zertan or whatev his name is

from my analysis of his energy I would say that dude is mmost definitely a scammer, he's a schemer for making money, which is why he got into mining in the first place.  his mannerisms are too careful and too positive, and just what a customer wants to hear, but to anybody who knows scammers with any street smarts (I lived on the streets of NYC and LA I run into scammers all the time, I even know scammers personally from various places.  a dude n my grandma's church growing up in wyoming is a scam artist. and I'd say that guy is pulling off the greatest scam in bitcoin history)  but of course I could be completely wrong, I'm just speculating.  but I will further speculate as follows.

when the collective community definitively realize that they are scammed and they do make some kind of break with over 100 million dollars of bitcoin communities money, its gonna be a drastic blow.  that's 10% of the whole economy.  it might have reached terminal velocity increasing, but the pirate fiasco from before didn't it make the economy collapse?  this is a young economy and we have to go through chicken pox and all that to get our immunities, but I am foreseeing a sort of fiasco coming, depending on whether it is a scam or not.

if it is a scam, bitcoin will go down in value.  10% of the entire economy vanishes. that's the biggest yet!  

I will speculate that people invested in bitcoin that have the knowledge of litecoin will jump over there and litecoin will surge ahead in trade value, or... it might go down too.  

I realize I'm just speculating personally, but thought I woould share my thoughts with you fine thinkers to see if anyone resonated or could correct me in any faulty assumptions I might have.


PROOF of BFL's legitimacy would be awesome.  like a picture of them working on a ton of products, a picture of the assembly line?  there must be some super easy way for them to legitimize themselves.  but so far it seems like everything is this brilliant heist.  

just my 0.00002 btc

[XXthetimeisnowXX]

I myself was VERY excited about those BFL SC things (http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/), but it sounded too good to be true. I was one step before pre-ordering the Mini Rig 'SC' for just $30k, which could deliver 1TH/s (update -> 1.5 TH/s according to the website now!). You know what? Bullshit.

Is butterfly labs mining with those ASICs at the moment? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110290.0)
Hell no! Do you see some huge raise in hashing power? No.
Would it be beneficial to mine on their own devices? Hell yes! More than just selling them.

If circumstantial evidence isn't enough, try simple business logic.  The price is set at $149 for a 3500MH/s chip. At current prices, they would make $149 after about 10.8 days of mining!  So why doesn't Butterfly Labs just run them for 10.8 days instead of selling them?  Then they'd have $149 and the chips lol.  I mean seriously, read those last 2 sentences again, people.  You think they're not mining with them?  I can't be the only one that realizes this.  From a business perspective, if you had an investment that would pay off 200% in a month and you sell it off instead, you're a crazy person.

You know the true reason why they are not mining with them? They can't. They don't have them.

But they have already proven legit! They fullfiled the orders and delivered FPGAs!
Sure they have. Gained your trust. And will take them back. And you will pay even more. You will loose your working FPGAs and also money. Huge money.

Trade in terms: Qualifying trade in for upgrades can be either an older generation Mini Rig or 25 older generation Singles. Once your new rig is ready for delivery (currently scheduled for November), you'll be notified to ship your trade in units to us. Upon receipt we'll release your new Mini Rig SC for shipment to you.

They still could have runned before..
They could, but why would they? Establish trust. Then run away.
They could have stolen $1M.

Now they have $30M and the hardware. Many of you fell for it.

Total Orders (By last seen)        7678
   
Orders Tracked         227
Trade-In Orders         66
   
Units Sold   
   
Jalapeno SC            225
Single SC               231
Mini Rig SC               21
   
Extended TH   
   
Jalepeno SC       0.7875
Single SC             9.24
Mini Rig SC               21
   
Grand Total of   31.0275

I still trust them.
Really? What about that the CEO is a fraduster, sentenced to 3 years in prison and is currently released and violating the terms?

September 15, 2010

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. SONNY VLEISIDES

...
The defendant is hereby placed on supervised release, effective immediately, for a term of three years under the following terms and conditions:
...
The defendant shall not engage, as whole or partial owner, employee or otherwise, in any business involving loan programs, gambling or gaming activities, telemarketing activities, investment programs or any other business involving the solicitation of funds or cold-calls to customers without the express approval of the Probation Officer prior to engagement in such employment.

As always, I feel terribly sorry for all you guys.

yes I too was interested in this, you get the ability to be mining like crazy and make all this money. "yes we could easaly charge WAY more for these but becouse im such a nice guy ill ONLY charge 30K".

Ok so why are you not taking all your machines and making all these bit coins for yourself or your company?

Think about it people. he will make 30K per and ya it will work at first but the whole system of bitcoins is that it increases in difficulty to mine them when the ability to mine them increases.

so for about a month or so be for he ship's you your brand new supper low price 30k machine he will plug them all in use the F*$^ out of them and then say here you go. well now its super dupper hard to mine anything with the proxy of it getting ten times harder.

I think you will make one k a month for a few monthes then 300 a month for a few months then one hundred a month for a few monthes untill your power bill is higher then what you make.

its a big ass bullshit system. but hay if you wana throw 30k away and make about 8 till there obsolete go right ahaead!

[mikejones]

I'll admit it's a bit puzzling how/why they still take orders for something that clearly does not yet exist.  Seems like even if they are legit and do launch a product they will be so far behind in manufacturing that it will be impossible.

I could be wrong; but; seems like a great way to end up in legal/financial trouble for the rest of your working life.

not only they are taking new preorders, but they are also investing quite a good money to attract newbies to their scammy preorders...

....and....where is a working prototype?

red flags everywhere

I saw a few on youtube. I also notice people on ebay selling them.

[spacegoat]

I'll admit it's a bit puzzling how/why they still take orders for something that clearly does not yet exist.  Seems like even if they are legit and do launch a product they will be so far behind in manufacturing that it will be impossible.

I could be wrong; but; seems like a great way to end up in legal/financial trouble for the rest of your working life.

not only they are taking new preorders, but they are also investing quite a good money to attract newbies to their scammy preorders...

....and....where is a working prototype?

red flags everywhere

I saw a few on youtube. I also notice people on ebay selling them.

no you didn't look closely.  people on EBAY are selling their place in line for the PREORDERS
and the ones on youtube are the previous product before the mythical BFL ASIC

[hiima]

I'm pretty new to mining and ordered a BFL Jalapeno. Should I get a refund?

[spacegoat]

I'm pretty new to mining and ordered a BFL Jalapeno. Should I get a refund?

its your call
I don't trust BFL personally
but nothing official has come out and proven them to be liars

but from where I'm standing all signs point to scam

*mail fraud felon on parole running company
*promised products since august 2012
*reveals himself on youtube to be a total asshole
*press releases are always "great" and exactly what you want to hear

etc. etc.
I'd get a refund but that's just me, I am still trying to find legitimate information for my investigation on this company. 

[Pangia]

Good Morning Everyone,

Quick Question -----IF Butterflylabs turns out to be a huge scam, will the publication of such in the main-stream media adversely effect the price of Bitcoins?

My rational is that if there is such an outcome (Butterflylabs is a scam), it will tarnish the entire Bitcoin movement, but I would like to hear your thoughts as well.

[Aahzman]

I'm pretty new to mining and ordered a BFL Jalapeno. Should I get a refund?

but from where I'm standing all signs point to scam

 

Maybe you should stand somewhere else.

- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud. *BUZZ* try again.
- They never promised ASIC product for August 2012. They predicted they'd be able to ship by October 2012. *BUZZ* try again.
- Ok, this one is accurate. Josh does come off like a humongous douchecanoe. *DING*
- UH, no, press releases are not "always 'great' and exactly what you want to hear". Most press releases are apologizing for yet another delay, production/testing problem, etc, and begging for customer patience and forgiveness. In fact, the vast majority of press releases are pretty much the OPPOSITE of "exactly what you want to hear", since I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pre-order customers want to hear "Hey, we're shipping your unit(s) now!" *BUZZ*

SO, let's see, 3 out of 4 assertions incorrect.  *golfclap*

But yes, please do continue to encourage people to cancel their pre-orders and get refunds. Every cancelled pre-order earlier than mine means I move up the line and get mine sooner.

[Pangia]

Aahzman wrote:

Maybe you should stand somewhere else.

- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud. *BUZZ* try again.
- They never promised ASIC product for August 2012. They predicted they'd be able to ship by October 2012. *BUZZ* try again.
- Ok, this one is accurate. Josh does come off like a humongous douchecanoe. *DING*
- UH, no, press releases are not "always 'great' and exactly what you want to hear". Most press releases are apologizing for yet another delay, production/testing problem, etc, and begging for customer patience and forgiveness. In fact, the vast majority of press releases are pretty much the OPPOSITE of "exactly what you want to hear", since I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pre-order customers want to hear "Hey, we're shipping your unit(s) now!" *BUZZ*

SO, let's see, 3 out of 4 assertions incorrect.  *golfclap*

But yes, please do continue to encourage people to cancel their pre-orders and get refunds. Every cancelled pre-order earlier than mine means I move up the line and get mine sooner.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a question regarding the bolded statement -- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud.
Before my question however, I would like to share a story:

There was a newly created school in NY for 5 year olds. This school promised to essentially turn 5 year olds into Einsteins within 30 days. It's promise was that it would increase the IQ of a student by 30-40 points.  The "guy running the school" (the Principal) was a highly qualified individual who was well liked by both the school's staff as well as the parents.  Every parent who enrolled their child into the school believed that the school could indeed significantly increase the IQ of their children. Their wish was that they're child could someday grow up to change the world for the better.  The blogs and reviews for the school were extremely positive.  The school's advertisements could been seen everywhere.  If a Google search of the words increase+IQ were performed, the first paid ad that appeared was for the school. But the clouds began to darken.

A parent, concerned that 30 days had elapsed and her 5 year old son "Johny" still didn't know his ABC's began to dig into the background of the staff and to her surprise discovered that a "high level executive" within the schoold was a Registered Sex Offender (a pedophile), a Level 1 to be precise (the most violent/determined to reoffend again). He was arrested and convicted of raping a 5 year old boy.  This "high level executive" was actually on parole and a condition of his parole was that he not have any contact with children.  His presence in the school as a "high level executive" was therefore a clear violation of the conditions of his parole. 

When the concerned parent began telling the other parents about what she had discovered, they began to surmise that maybe, just maybe, this "high level executive" was actually the one pulling all the strings in the school and that the "guy running the school" (the Principal) was just a front man, after all, you couldn't have a convicted pedophile as the Principal of a school for 5 year olds. More rumors began to spread that maybe, just maybe, the entire school was a scam devised by the convicted pedophile as a means to gain access to hundreds of 5 year olds, where he could have his pick.

As word began to spread, parents began to remove their children from the school.  Many parents however, kept their children enrolled despite the fact that their 5 year olds would be in the same building on a daily basis with this convicted pedophile. They continued to keep their children in the school even after 60 days elapsed and there was no increase in their child's intelligence, then 90 days and no increase, then 120 days and no increase, then 150 days and no increase, then 180 days and no increase.  Eventually, the school year came to an end and the children were no smarter than the day they first entered the school.  But despite this, some parents planned to re-enroll their children the following year. Their rationale was that they believed that the school could deliver even after it failed to deliver month after month for the prior school year.

When asked why they would keep their children in the school after its failure to deliver as promised, they couldn't provide a logical answer. They would always provide a statement that translated into "I still believe in the school because I have hope that they might deliver" and when asked about the convicted pedophile lurking within the school, they responded that he wasn't a teacher nor was he the principal, he was a "high level executive" walking amongst their children on a daily basis.

So my question is as follows:

If you were to initially enroll your child into this school and it continued to fail to deliver (increase his/her IQ by 30-40 points in 30 days) and then you discovered that a "high level executive" working inside of the school was convicted pedophile, would you keep your child in the school?