IOTA

[50cent_rapper]

Hey, guys and gals. I'd like to get your feedback on the following:

In it's current implementation Iota's ledger is based on inputs and outputs like Bitcoin. There is another way - balances of accounts like in Nxt and Ethereum.

Now I see that if Iota used the latter it would be more efficient because:
1. No need to send the change back to myself which makes the tangle smaller
2. A lot of dust inputs could be spent with a single payment and this would be more secure because every address reuse leaks the private key
3. A new address wouldn't be needed for every incoming payment (this would make acceptance of Iota donations simple, in the current design it's PITA for humans)
4. Off-tangle payments would become simpler
5. RAM requirement for full nodes would be relaxed

The only problem that might arise in balance-based Iota is worse consensus convergence, but after analyzing the issue I don't see what could break.

I'm thinking if it's worth to do a little redesign that could take few days of extra work...

As stake holder I vote for waiting and implementing the best from beginning.
From my experience its mostly not a good idea to start quick and dirty and try to fix it after release.
And in distributed systems where each confirmed transaction matters, its even more critical not to break the past!

Anyone who need a working client now can try to play with alpha release.
We talk about days or maybe a week!?
IOTA, please don't satisfy the folks who want to see iota on the exchanges as soon as possible for quick profits.
Please develop with respect to sustainability.

And what is the best from beginning balances or input/output ?

[Krypt]

People not only gave you half a million USD but also gave you shitloads of trust.
Trust in you, your team, your company, your product.

Can you not understand that that trust becomes a bit fragile when you fail to meet expections set by yourself?
 - You said IOTA was close to being lauched, now you ask how basic things should be implemented.
 - repeatedly postponing release dates.

Can you not understand that that trust becomes a bit fragile considering that the general management of this project is unprofessional?
 - I signed up for the email newsletter, never got an email
 - http://collect.iotatoken.com/ TO THIS DAY shows outdated information, you said you were going to change that multiple times.
 - I said this before - no streamlined way of communication - where can i find updates and information? here? ryver? twitter? email? outdated collect.iotatoken website? not even once updated iotatoken website?
 - David once said this is because it is better to have people seek information themselfes, I agree, but if you continue running this project this way people will just stop giving a shit.

How can you look at how the IOTA community is loosing trust and faith In you and not think "Well, thats a little bit our fault"

And then you dare to say things like

right now the level of involvement is pretty upsetting.

Try to take a wild guess as to why.

You should be happy the community has been so patient with you.

But hey, whatever, its not like you actually care about the community and IOTA beeing a great product

I'm just a hired coder in a company that created Iota.

If thats truly all you are then what happens after IOTA is released?
Will your poisition change from "lead dev" to "senior i dont give a shit anymore developer" ?

Thanks, tangleNinja, really, really well said.

As for balance vs. inputs I think inputs/outputs approach is more suitable for Internet-of-Things, and more robust in the sense of a bad woven tangle's threads.

[yassin54]

Here's a suggestion.

STOP WHINING.

A few more days doesn't matter. If you can't deal with it leave. Go. No one is going to miss complainers. Come back when this is a 10+ million dollar project in a few weeks/months. Or don't come back at all. But just stop all the whining.

CFB asked the community for its opinion. Most said yes, ok. A few said no. But the few that said no are being loud and posting long blocks of texts, and are acting like babies that think if they scream they get their way. Doesn't work like that. Sorry. So go have a drink, go for a run, get a massage, or whatever calms you down and relax.

+1440 +1440
take your time 

[yassin54]

The results of voting seems:
~ 75% yes, take your time and go with balances
~ 20% go the most secure way - input/output
~ 5% no, release ASAP cause Christmas has passed

Good job, Thanks, it is clear now  

[Come-from-Beyond]

Very well respected community members, and what of this:

ball park eta til you have something in the wild?

By Christmas.

The phrase "in the wild" means only one thing. Is IOTA in the wild? No.

And there are more.

Yes the project should be made as good as possible.
No, the release time dates were not accurate .

What can I say? Somebody screwed up I guess?

I can't recall what went wrong after the community had decided to go with a better front-end than my "50 shades of grey" version... Maybe absence of the front-end is the only thing that slowed down the beta version ("in the wild" part)?

[Come-from-Beyond]

@CfB - you want community? you got it.

Now I'm much less upset, so many feedbacks.

[Come-from-Beyond]

A few more days doesn't matter.

Looks like I set wrong accents in that post. Few days won't affect the release, it's just a measure of how much work I'll spend, it shows that the change is simple and would be a nobrainer if not that consensus concern.

[Come-from-Beyond]

i'm ready to buy from you all IOTA's you have (1:1),
if you can prove you have it (signed message from deposit address),
and if CfB want to change address (yours 2 mine) in genesis block.

I'm ready to offer you 10%more than you have paid

No sure I can participate in this. If IOTA is sold at least twice as that after the release then I'll feel myself like we robbed that guy.

[mladen00]

i'm ready to buy from you all IOTA's you have (1:1),
if you can prove you have it (signed message from deposit address),
and if CfB want to change address (yours 2 mine) in genesis block.

I'm ready to offer you 10%more than you have paid

No sure I can participate in this. If IOTA is sold at least twice as that after the release then I'll feel myself like we robbed that guy.

i'm sure he wont participate
but if he feel that he is robbed right now....

[Come-from-Beyond]

If thats truly all you are then what happens after IOTA is released?
Will your poisition change from "lead dev" to "senior i dont give a shit anymore developer" ?

Once Iota is ready I'll return to Jinn development. Unlike Bitcoin, Iota wasn't planned to be a Swiss army knife, it won't get new features into the core.

[gaba]

@Come-from-Beyond

Why don't you organize voting inside NXT, it will be helpful. I know you can fairly easily distribute virtual IOTA token as asset or NXT currency .

For those of you who are afraid of installing another wallet good news is that you don't need to. You can create your NXT address trough any public node (wallet) with "open API": http://www.peerexplorer.com/nodes. After you choose your node next step is to click on "Action: Open Wallet GUI". You will end up on something like these: http://62.194.6.113:7876/index.html

You only need 1 NXT for voting. you can get 4 NXT on these faucet: http://www.nxtinfo.org/nxt-faucet/

[anewafresh]

@Come-from-Beyond

Why don't you organize voting inside NXT, it will be helpful. I know you can fairly easily distribute virtual IOTA token as asset or NXT currency .

For those of you who are afraid of installing another wallet good news is that you don't need to. You can create your NXT address trough any public node (wallet) with "open API": http://www.peerexplorer.com/nodes. After you choose your node next step is to click on "Action: Open Wallet GUI". You will end up on something like these: http://62.194.6.113:7876/index.html

You only need 1 NXT for voting. you can get 4 NXT on these faucet: http://www.nxtinfo.org/nxt-faucet/

Not sure if that whole exercise would be necessary seeing as the verdict seems to be pretty clear here.

[child_harold]

Im just gonna +1 this tangleNinja post (No, I did not write it)

and reiterate:

1. In my estimation it is utter folly and nonsense to be asking the community, at short notice, to make fundamental architecture choices for a project CfB has been working on for a year and which was expected to have already launched. It makes me nervous.

2. CfB's comment that the "level of [community] involvement is pretty upsetting" shocked and angered me. I'm on ryver/twitter and here talking iota. To be perfectly honest given iota hasn't even launched yet I think I've done quite enough already to spread the word. I cannot f***ing believe that he said that.

3. What is this company CfB is talking about?

4. Sure I want the car to be better and faster but I dunno how to make it better and faster. That is precisely why I contributed towards a pool of $500,000.
Besides, I was expecting to be driving the car already!

This is a very valuable discussion.d h

I can understand both sides, but the general direction where this is heading worries me.

@IOTA Team, when you guys anounced the crowdsale, you made implications that IOTA was pretty fucking close to beeing ready to launch
and said that we can expect beta before christmas, now the release date for beta was postponed many times, today is febuary 5th and there
is no useable version of IOTA released ( no I dont consider 0.3.0 usable, unless you can figure out how to build a vaild transaction just by looking at the undocumented,
unannotated source code, you really cant expect that )

People not only gave you half a million USD but also gave you shitloads of trust.
Trust in you, your team, your company, your product.

Can you not understand that that trust becomes a bit fragile when you fail to meet expections set by yourself?
 - You said IOTA was close to being lauched, now you ask how basic things should be implemented.
 - repeatedly postponing release dates.

Can you not understand that that trust becomes a bit fragile considering that the general management of this project is unprofessional?
 - I signed up for the email newsletter, never got an email
 - http://collect.iotatoken.com/ TO THIS DAY shows outdated information, you said you were going to change that multiple times.
 - I said this before - no streamlined way of communication - where can i find updates and information? here? ryver? twitter? email? outdated collect.iotatoken website? not even once updated iotatoken website?
 - David once said this is because it is better to have people seek information themselfes, I agree, but if you continue running this project this way people will just stop giving a shit.

How can you look at how the IOTA community is loosing trust and faith In you and not think "Well, thats a little bit our fault"

And then you dare to say things like

right now the level of involvement is pretty upsetting.

Try to take a wild guess as to why.

You should be happy the community has been so patient with you.

But hey, whatever, its not like you actually care about the community and IOTA beeing a great product

I'm just a hired coder in a company that created Iota.

If thats truly all you are then what happens after IOTA is released?
Will your poisition change from "lead dev" to "senior i dont give a shit anymore developer" ?


Honestly I am rather dissapointed.
Dosnt mean i have lost all faith in IOTA, just means I want to point out things that could have been done better.
This all boils down to failure of communication, communicate in a more professional, clear, unambiguous way
this could become the best crypto currency and crypto currency community ever.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Im just gonna +1 this tangleNinja post (No, I did not write it)

and reiterate:

1. In my estimation it is utter folly and nonsense to be asking the community, at short notice, to make fundamental architecture choices for a project CfB has been working on for a year and which was expected to have already launched. It makes me nervous.

2. CfB's comment that the "level of [community] involvement is pretty upsetting" shocked and angered me. I'm on ryver/twitter and here talking iota. To be perfectly honest given iota hasn't even launched yet I think I've done quite enough already to spread the word. I cannot f***ing believe that he said that.

3. What is this company CfB is talking about?

4. Sure I want the car to be better and faster but I dunno how to make it better and faster. That is precisely why I contributed towards a pool of $500,000.
Besides, I was expecting to be driving the car already!

1. Last moment change is not that rare, "right before the launch" is that period when most of insights come to mind.

2. I expected even more involvement. Maybe I should have spent less time on Iota, in this case I wouldn't expect from others to dedicate 16 hours every day too.

3. Jinn Labs.

4. I thought that money is not the only thing that was supposed to be put into Iota from every participant, but if it's not reflected in the terms of sale then it's my fault. I fall for this quite often judging about people as about myself.

[child_harold]

Im just gonna +1 this tangleNinja post (No, I did not write it)

and reiterate:

1. In my estimation it is utter folly and nonsense to be asking the community, at short notice, to make fundamental architecture choices for a project CfB has been working on for a year and which was expected to have already launched. It makes me nervous.

2. CfB's comment that the "level of [community] involvement is pretty upsetting" shocked and angered me. I'm on ryver/twitter and here talking iota. To be perfectly honest given iota hasn't even launched yet I think I've done quite enough already to spread the word. I cannot f***ing believe that he said that.

3. What is this company CfB is talking about?

4. Sure I want the car to be better and faster but I dunno how to make it better and faster. That is precisely why I contributed towards a pool of $500,000.
Besides, I was expecting to be driving the car already!

1. Last moment change is not that rare, "right before the launch" is that period when most of insights come to mind.

2. I expected even more involvement. Maybe I should have spent less time on Iota, in this case I wouldn't expect from others to dedicate 16 hours every day too.

3. Jinn Labs.

4. I thought that money is not the only thing that was supposed to be put into Iota from every participant, but if it's not reflected in the terms of sale then it's my fault. I fall for this quite often judging about people as about myself.

1. Not sure what to say. When it comes it comes I guess. So you mean to tell me that in the year youve been working on IOTA you never thought about the i/o/account thing before?
2. I'd guess I was more involved than 95% of your investors
3  ok
4. I have given both money and my time. I cannot comment on such technical issues. I suggest you consult Sergio and Vitalik

I feel a bit like Jerry in this clip:
Jerry And His New Cabinets
https://youtu.be/5vvWlZUYVOM

[spreadcoiner]

@CfB, it should not be a mystery... the best solution will always be the best solution to IOTA longterm.
I say go with the technically sound solution. No need to do things out of hurry and scare. It does not hurt if it takes some more days of testing. Bring the best IOTA to life as possible. And if you can make it stable and secure, avoiding future needs of fixes or changes, even better.
I trust you will do your best!

[Come-from-Beyond]

1. Not sure what to say. When it comes it comes I guess. So you mean to tell me that in the year youve been working on IOTA you never thought about the i/o/account thing before?
2. I'd guess I was more involved than 95% of your investors
3  ok
4. I have given both money and my time. I cannot comment on such technical issues. I suggest you consult Sergio and Vitalik

I feel a bit like Jerry in this clip:
Jerry And His New Cabinets
https://youtu.be/5vvWlZUYVOM

I have been constantly returning to account thing but every time few pieces of the puzzle were on wrong places. Your level of involvement is pretty good IMO.

I didn't get that clip, the actors accent is terrible.

[Videodrome]

@child_harold you are the only one here how create problem were there aren't.

IOTA is not a single man decision project, we have read your opinion so now please stop spamming over and over the same concept.

We all belive in CfB, he posted a question the community have answered.

You answer in NO, we understand that.

You want a vote ? we can organize a signed message votation.

[child_harold]

@child_harold you are the only one here how create problem were there aren't.

Im not making a problem, rather voicing my opinion.
+ tangleNinja seemed to agree with me somewhat.

I find it very unlikely that you and 99% of the other people in this forum have enough knowledge to comment on the ramifications of going i/o or account in a hitherto experimental field of applying DAGs to cryptotokens.

So since you presumably have no informed opinion on this matter it seems most unwise to comment.

Therefor, it is a folly.

My advice to consult with Sergio and perhaps Vitalik, on the other hand, does make sense.

My position is that such consultations should have already taken place and these architectural decisions already made by the experts.

[freshman777]

I vote for reusable addresses like in Nxt and balances approach, if and only if this design is secure. More days of testing is not a problem, f*ck the whiners.