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Author Topic: [ANN][XEL] Elastic Project - The Decentralized Supercomputer  (Read 447335 times)
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robdark
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June 24, 2016, 10:05:50 PM
 #941

How many coins will be distributed to donators and how many will be held back by devs?
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June 24, 2016, 10:11:05 PM
 #942


afaik 5.000.000 = coinsupply and no coins being held back
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June 25, 2016, 12:48:24 AM
 #943

This is one of those coins with a high risk to reward ratio. The team is doing a better job than I expected. I initially didn't know what to think.. but now I think it's a cool project. I hope evil can come up with some cool tech Smiley I am like that you are into the project because you want the tech for your own research - that's cool. Best of luck team!

Thank you very much for your kind words. Yeah, I feel like I cannot finish my PhD thesis without huge amounts of computational power. My infiniband cluster does not work at all, and renting computational power at EC2 is too expensive. That's why I (in my own interest) was so excited about this project and I will get this thing up and running no matter what ;-)



Would you please elaborate your subject a bit so that we get an idea of what you want to accomplish in your PhD.

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June 25, 2016, 02:08:07 PM
 #944

is there any wallet online ? or can we import our coins already ? sorry if I bother someone with this questions Sad
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June 25, 2016, 02:25:38 PM
 #945


ICO still running so no wallet/no moving coins yet
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June 25, 2016, 03:10:10 PM
 #946

Thanks for the answer Cheesy
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June 26, 2016, 10:01:19 AM
 #947



I am just finishing the "payment" aspects of the work packages.
In a first step I have added many details to the work creation page so the user exactly knows that parameter means what and what will be refundable under what circumstances.

Now I need some input from the community, how should we best design the "payment" for the work itself.
A few options:

1. We can just say 1 XEL = 1 Flop, so if the network has a total computation power of 10 Flops per hour for example (this can be approximately calculated from the proof-of-work difficulty) you need 10 XEL to have your work live for 1 hour, 20 XEL to have it live for 2 hours. This sucks, because who are we that we decide how much 1 Flop is worth.
2. This brings us to possibility 2: We can let the users decide how much they are willing to pay for 1 Flop. This would however cause that miners of course would first do those with the highest amounts paid. But this way the fair per-flop price would be always found "by the market".

I am sure we all agree to go for point 2?
If so we have to think further. How can be estimate the time for which the work will be live then? I cannot think of any "time estimation" in this case as it depends on how many miners mine for the largest amount, and how many mine randomly. It depends on how many work packages are there with a higher XEL/Flop payment, and many other factors.
I think we have to drop all time estimations and work with absolute "You get 10000 FLOPS"-values.

Also, for point two we need to "suggest" some XEL/flop price to the user and then give him a way to adjust this value ... maybe with a slider. I mean, otherwise noone would have an intuitive feeling for which value is the best tradeoff between price and the mount of attractiveness to the miners. How would be suggest a value? Just use the average price of all current job? This could open up some attack vectors and trick users out of their XEL with bogus work packages with insane XEL/flop prices. And how do we suggest a value when no job is currently live? Do we use empirical data? Or do we use some standard value (but here, why should be be allowed to decide any value).

Maybe we can discuss this a bit?  Wink  This payment stuff is one of the last pieces missing in the frontend, but certainly the most crucial one.
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June 26, 2016, 11:15:33 AM
 #948

IMO if there are no jobs currently live then the price should be basically 0 XEL/flop. I don't think it'll happen though because people will integrate ways to use the computational power to make money (such as mining other cryptocurrencies) that way a base price per flop will be formed.
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June 26, 2016, 11:20:03 AM
 #949


Also, for point two we need to "suggest" some XEL/flop price to the user and then give him a way to adjust this value ... maybe with a slider. I mean, otherwise noone would have an intuitive feeling for which value is the best tradeoff between price and the mount of attractiveness to the miners. How would be suggest a value? Just use the average price of all current job? This could open up some attack vectors and trick users out of their XEL with bogus work packages with insane XEL/flop prices. And how do we suggest a value when no job is currently live? Do we use empirical data? Or do we use some standard value (but here, why should be be allowed to decide any value).

Maybe we can discuss this a bit?  Wink  This payment stuff is one of the last pieces missing in the frontend, but certainly the most crucial one.
Good morning EK.
Yeah I'd go with option #2. Let the market decide.
Regarding the fair price, what about calculating the average cost of XEL mining given the network difficulty? It would be a start for a price that obviously needs to be above the miner's breakeven point. Then in addition you can show the average cost for the same very computational power of centralized computational networks such as amazon.
The slider will make the user have a graphical comparison and help him decide a fair price.
Not sure what I wrote makes sense tho Cheesy

In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can’t be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. details https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intelme --- https://tehnoetic.com/laptops --- https://store.vikings.net/x200-ryf-certfied
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June 26, 2016, 12:12:31 PM
 #950


Also, for point two we need to "suggest" some XEL/flop price to the user and then give him a way to adjust this value ... maybe with a slider. I mean, otherwise noone would have an intuitive feeling for which value is the best tradeoff between price and the mount of attractiveness to the miners. How would be suggest a value? Just use the average price of all current job? This could open up some attack vectors and trick users out of their XEL with bogus work packages with insane XEL/flop prices. And how do we suggest a value when no job is currently live? Do we use empirical data? Or do we use some standard value (but here, why should be be allowed to decide any value).

Maybe we can discuss this a bit?  Wink  This payment stuff is one of the last pieces missing in the frontend, but certainly the most crucial one.
Good morning EK.
Yeah I'd go with option #2. Let the market decide.
Regarding the fair price, what about calculating the average cost of XEL mining given the network difficulty? It would be a start for a price that obviously needs to be above the miner's breakeven point. Then in addition you can show the average cost for the same very computational power of centralized computational networks such as amazon.
The slider will make the user have a graphical comparison and help him decide a fair price.
Not sure what I wrote makes sense tho Cheesy

Why not just putting down a fixed value?

XEL is a single purpose currency and it's value would be determined by people willing to pay for the service. Think of it as a ticket, not as a currency. The more people want to use the network, the higher the price.

What am i missing here?
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June 26, 2016, 02:24:40 PM
 #951


Also, for point two we need to "suggest" some XEL/flop price to the user and then give him a way to adjust this value ... maybe with a slider. I mean, otherwise noone would have an intuitive feeling for which value is the best tradeoff between price and the mount of attractiveness to the miners. How would be suggest a value? Just use the average price of all current job? This could open up some attack vectors and trick users out of their XEL with bogus work packages with insane XEL/flop prices. And how do we suggest a value when no job is currently live? Do we use empirical data? Or do we use some standard value (but here, why should be be allowed to decide any value).

Maybe we can discuss this a bit?  Wink  This payment stuff is one of the last pieces missing in the frontend, but certainly the most crucial one.
Good morning EK.
Yeah I'd go with option #2. Let the market decide.
Regarding the fair price, what about calculating the average cost of XEL mining given the network difficulty? It would be a start for a price that obviously needs to be above the miner's breakeven point. Then in addition you can show the average cost for the same very computational power of centralized computational networks such as amazon.
The slider will make the user have a graphical comparison and help him decide a fair price.
Not sure what I wrote makes sense tho Cheesy

Why not just putting down a fixed value?

XEL is a single purpose currency and it's value would be determined by people willing to pay for the service. Think of it as a ticket, not as a currency. The more people want to use the network, the higher the price.

What am i missing here?

If the value is fixed there will be no scaling and the computational power will only increase with a rising XEL price. For a price per flop in XEL there will be a market for the flop price and the market for the XEL. The more computer power is in the grid the the lower the price of a flop is. The lower the price of the flop the more work will be done in the grid (like mining CPU coins) leading to a demand of XEL and a price increase with the network usage.

The issue starts when you have to define the time period or the work package size. I have no idea at the moment.

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June 26, 2016, 02:47:00 PM
 #952


Also, for point two we need to "suggest" some XEL/flop price to the user and then give him a way to adjust this value ... maybe with a slider. I mean, otherwise noone would have an intuitive feeling for which value is the best tradeoff between price and the mount of attractiveness to the miners. How would be suggest a value? Just use the average price of all current job? This could open up some attack vectors and trick users out of their XEL with bogus work packages with insane XEL/flop prices. And how do we suggest a value when no job is currently live? Do we use empirical data? Or do we use some standard value (but here, why should be be allowed to decide any value).

Maybe we can discuss this a bit?  Wink  This payment stuff is one of the last pieces missing in the frontend, but certainly the most crucial one.
Good morning EK.
Yeah I'd go with option #2. Let the market decide.
Regarding the fair price, what about calculating the average cost of XEL mining given the network difficulty? It would be a start for a price that obviously needs to be above the miner's breakeven point. Then in addition you can show the average cost for the same very computational power of centralized computational networks such as amazon.
The slider will make the user have a graphical comparison and help him decide a fair price.
Not sure what I wrote makes sense tho Cheesy

Why not just putting down a fixed value?

XEL is a single purpose currency and it's value would be determined by people willing to pay for the service. Think of it as a ticket, not as a currency. The more people want to use the network, the higher the price.

What am i missing here?

If the value is fixed there will be no scaling and the computational power will only increase with a rising XEL price. For a price per flop in XEL there will be a market for the flop price and the market for the XEL. The more computer power is in the grid the the lower the price of a flop is. The lower the price of the flop the more work will be done in the grid (like mining CPU coins) leading to a demand of XEL and a price increase with the network usage.

The issue starts when you have to define the time period or the work package size. I have no idea at the moment.

I meant a fixed value XEL/flop actually, not a fixed value as in X amount of XEL per block/whatevertherighttermisinthiscase.

A little braindead right now, sorry.
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June 26, 2016, 02:59:26 PM
 #953


we need a rising XEL/flop to attract new computational power in case we see strong demand for XEL-computational power. the absolute worst case would be we have a certain kind of breakthrough with some very early media attention and the network is not capable of providing the needed computational power cause the XEL/flop price stays the same.

a good value for your flop is guaranteeing a nice spread of the network.
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June 26, 2016, 04:54:46 PM
 #954


we need a rising XEL/flop to attract new computational power in case we see strong demand for XEL-computational power. the absolute worst case would be we have a certain kind of breakthrough with some very early media attention and the network is not capable of providing the needed computational power cause the XEL/flop price stays the same.

a good value for your flop is guaranteeing a nice spread of the network.

I disagree. The XEL/flop is completely unimportant. What's important is that the $/flop is faire and the XEL/$ will adjust according to the scaling of the network.
The more flops you bring in the higher the price of an XEL will rise.
The question now is how you motivate someone to provide computer power


I think about following scenarios
1. People keeping the wallet online in the background just for fun (home PC will run on a loss because they compete to amazon and other high end machines in the elastic grid). With some marketing more single PC will join and the flops in the network will increase leading to an increasing price of XEL which attracts other PC users. High end machine will join due to the outlook of increasing XEL price.
2. If people who provide computer power are only interested in profit it will be more expensive for someone to use the computer power in the network. Only few with specific cases will use elastic. Demand and price of XEL will stay at at a level which represents the real use cases.

As conclusion one can say that in a first stage the scenario 1 could apply but with a certain size more individuals with an economical interest will take part which leads to scenario 2.

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June 26, 2016, 06:52:20 PM
 #955

 Making 1 XEL = 1 FLOP would not mean we're deciding how much 1 Flop is worth, but rather how much XEL is worth for the Elastic network, it sucks for a different reason, it is inelastic.

Perhaps it would make sense to set "current flops"/"current money supply" as the lowest price (so if you own all XEL you can hire the whole Elastic network).


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June 26, 2016, 07:11:35 PM
 #956

Making 1 XEL = 1 FLOP would not mean we're deciding how much 1 Flop is worth, but rather how much XEL is worth for the Elastic network, it sucks for a different reason, it is inelastic.

Perhaps it would make sense to set "current flops"/"current money supply" as the lowest price (so if you own all XEL you can hire the whole Elastic network).




Ok. But for how long you can use the network until your XEL are used up if you have all XEL and the workers in the network are all rented by yourself.

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June 26, 2016, 07:39:23 PM
 #957

Making 1 XEL = 1 FLOP would not mean we're deciding how much 1 Flop is worth, but rather how much XEL is worth for the Elastic network, it sucks for a different reason, it is inelastic.

Perhaps it would make sense to set "current flops"/"current money supply" as the lowest price (so if you own all XEL you can hire the whole Elastic network).




Ok. But for how long you can use the network until your XEL are used up if you have all XEL and the workers in the network are all rented by yourself.
for 1s

or this could be the only price, so there is no competition between jobs and no division betwen miners (this would get us the estimated time back)

Think of XEL the currency as the representation of Elastic network, because the measure of the network is per second, the representation of it should also be measured per second. This means at each second you know how much power you get for how much XEL, when you create a job, you pay for flops, but the estimation of time is based on the flops at the time of creation, the error in estimation just affects the duration of the job, not the price nor computation done. This could possibly be exploited by making a very long job at the time when network flops are low, but this could be mitigated by either reevaluate after some time or seting a limit for job duration
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June 26, 2016, 08:08:05 PM
 #958

I had to delete a few posts and block some people from this thread.

Look PresidentLee, I will not discuss the terms of this donation campaign and I do not have to nor will I explain myself to you. If you do not agree with my terms and conditions then simply do not donate. It is your sole decision whether to donate or refrain from donating.

My intention is not to develop a program, deliver it, then collect the funds as the reward. My intention is to spend the money while developing the project. This is possible because, as a general rule, all donations are non-refundable once processed. And because donations should be not understood as deposits, this also means that the donations can be immediately used to pay taxes, people, office rents or almost anything else. This has been made clear on the very first page of this thread. If this raises some red flags for you then you have to stay away from here. Period.

No, I will not disclose my real name on the Internet. The very simple reason I’m anonymous is so that I can talk freely about a free web. One mistake people often make is having the faulty assumption that knowing my real name or my association with a respected person, group or organization might get them to trust me more. In fact, I have no authority here. Elastic Project is a loosely associated group of developers which constantly changes over time. If you prefer projects with a more centralized structure, then please move on. Specifically, I kindly ask you to refrain from any messages that try to convince me of the contrary. My time is too valuable to be wasted with the same discussion again and again.
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June 28, 2016, 09:24:03 AM
 #959

Hey Guys!!

A couple of questions:

1.  How much BTC has been collected so far as part of the "ICO"?

2.  When is it expected that these tokens/coins will be tradeable?

Thanks




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June 28, 2016, 09:36:44 AM
 #960

Hey Guys!!

A couple of questions:

1.  How much BTC has been collected so far as part of the "ICO"?

2.  When is it expected that these tokens/coins will be tradeable?

Thanks


Currently 350.14 BTC has been donated as you can see on elastic.pro
The coins will be tradeable once the project has launched which will not be before the ICO ends, but AFAIK nothing more specific has been announced
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