Do you believe in god?

[popcorn1]

I wish you both the best of luck.

But you don't really?..You called me an ass hole ..Not very good for a god believer ..

I was not planning on posting again in this thread but I wanted to post one final time and kindly inform readers that the claim of popcorn1 is false. I did not call him or anyone one else an asshole.

He was, however, obviously offended by my description of atheism as irrational and called me a number of rather unkind things which can be seen by anyone wishing to go back and read the last few pages of this thread.

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact. If you don't want to hear it from me you can here it from the smartest atheist I have yet to come across on this forum.

At its most pure and fundamental level knowledge is faith and faith is knowledge.

This is the essential difference between theism/spiritualism and nihilism, it is the question of epistemology, of what is knowledge. I know that this equation of knowledge with faith is false or at least self-defeating. I agree, atheism is false, but that it is false exactly to the extent that its still not absolute nihilism.

nihilnegativum is a rational atheist. I think he is wrong but he is indisputably rational and I enjoyed conversing with him in our prior Discussion of Nihilism. Sadly I am unable to say the same regarding some of the posters in this thread.

"If you're rational you don't get to believe whatever you want to believe.”
― Michael Huemer

I show you how smart you are ..

you can here it from the smartest atheist I have yet to come across on this forum.Your quote..

The smartest Atheist ..Yes i know more than anybody else that god is not real  ..
Do you not see how stupid you are ..

[popcorn1]

Good job Harry potter was wrote in this day and age could you imagine if it was wrote 500 years ago ..

You would have nutters looking for wizards goblins and dragons .

[popcorn1]

"If you're rational you don't get to believe whatever you want to believe.”
― Michael Huemer YOU DO IF IT'S PROVED SO ..

If your rational you would ask for proof..
        Popcorn1 ..

[dippididodaday]

"If you're rational you don't get to believe whatever you want to believe.”
― Michael Huemer YOU DO IF IT'S PROVED SO ..

If your rational you would ask for proof..
        Popcorn1 ..

I had a look at the definition of 'rational' on google. Here are what came up under 1: based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

logical,
reasoned,
sensible,
reasonable,                (of a person) having sound judgment; fair and sensible
cogent,
intelligent,
judicious,             having, showing, or done with good judgment or sense
shrewd,
common-sense,
commonsensical,
sound,
prudent;               acting with or showing care and thought for the future
down-to-earth,      with no illusions or pretensions; practical and realistic.
practical,
pragmatic            dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations


I highlighted the synonyms that kind of stood out the most in the context of this discussion.  

[cramcram21]

yeah I do believe in god even though i'm not active when it comes to religious activity,I mean I don't go to church and I don't pray everyday or every night , but I think if you believe in devil's and stuff like that you should also believe in god

[popcorn1]

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.
I am a non believer but one day we will make our own new world or find another ..

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.?
So what you just said is a lie?.. I have just proved you wrong

Atheism is irrational?..
Make our own new world find another new world.. Is what i say absolute nihilism?..

So as an atheist how am i irrational..

Make our own new world find another new world..A PURPOSE ..

Why do you think i keep saying science is the key to life?..It gives us a purpose..
You wont find it rattling bones praying or voodoo..
we have found out through science one day this planet will blow up or the sun will die?..
What's our purpose?..

So as an atheist what i said is it absolute nihilism..And is it useless to want to find new worlds or make
another?..

[CoinCube]

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.
I am a non believer but one day we will make our own new world or find another ..

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.?
So what you just said is a lie?.. I have just proved you wrong

Atheism is irrational?..
Make our own new world find another new world.. Is what i say absolute nihilism?..

So as an atheist how am i irrational..

Make our own new world find another new world..A PURPOSE ..

Why do you think i keep saying science is the key to life?..It gives us a purpose..
You wont find it rattling bones praying or voodoo..
we have found out through science one day this planet will blow up or the sun will die?..
What's our purpose?..

So as an atheist what i said is it absolute nihilism..And is it useless to want to find new worlds or make
another?..

Ok lets go a bit deeper looking at this through the worldview of moral nihilism. Moral nihilism is not the deepest form of nihilism but it is the most common.

You say that your purpose in life is to work towards finding another world for humanity to live on.
Lets take a look at your purpose from the perspective of nihilism:

1 ) We want to find a new world so that the human species continues to exist after the sun goes out.
2 ) We want the human species to continue to exist because they represent our genetic descendants and offspring.
3 ) We want our genetic descendants and offspring to survive because we care about them.
4 ) We care about them because evolution selected for this trait.
5 ) Evolution is the fitness and selection of life to its environment.
6 ) Life is a self replicating chemical reaction.
7 ) Chemical reactions are the spontaneous thing that happens when higher energy compounds are converted to lower energy compounds.
8 ) Spontaneous reactions occur throughout the universe and are ultimately processes of basic physics and chemistry.
9 ) Basic physics and chemistry have no value or meaning they just happen to occur.

Therefore your "purpose" also has no objective value or meaning it is ultimately just the spontaneous result of simple physics and chemistry.

Personally I entirely disagree with this argument. However, if you are not a moral nihilist you have to prove this argument is false not just say "no its not" or say you don't like it but prove it to be false.

[dippididodaday]

"If you're rational you don't get to believe whatever you want to believe.”
― Michael Huemer YOU DO IF IT'S PROVED SO ..

If your rational you would ask for proof..
        Popcorn1 ..

I had a look at the definition of 'rational' on google. Here are what came up under 1: based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
 
down-to-earth,      with no illusions or pretensions; practical and realistic.

I am particularly interested in pretensions. definition:

                                                                              1. a claim or the assertion of a claim to something. [synonyms: aspiration, assertion, profession] 

                                                                              2. the use of affectation to impress; ostentatiousness [synonyms: affectation, ostentation, artificiality, airs, posing, posturing, show, flashiness;
                                                                                                                                                        pomposity, pompousness, grandiosity, grandiloquence, magniloquence]


Is it rational to aspire, assert and profess that "God" is in fact ostentatiously posing himself pompously in a flashy show business?

[popcorn1]

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.
I am a non believer but one day we will make our own new world or find another ..

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.?
So what you just said is a lie?.. I have just proved you wrong

Atheism is irrational?..
Make our own new world find another new world.. Is what i say absolute nihilism?..

So as an atheist how am i irrational..

Make our own new world find another new world..A PURPOSE ..

Why do you think i keep saying science is the key to life?..It gives us a purpose..
You wont find it rattling bones praying or voodoo..
we have found out through science one day this planet will blow up or the sun will die?..
What's our purpose?..

So as an atheist what i said is it absolute nihilism..And is it useless to want to find new worlds or make
another?..

Ok lets go a bit deeper looking at this through the worldview of moral nihilism. Moral nihilism is not the deepest form of nihilism but it is the most common.

You say that your purpose in life is to work towards finding another world for humanity to live on.
Lets take a look at your purpose from the perspective of nihilism:

1 ) We want to find a new world so that the human species continues to exist after the sun goes out.
YES WE DO ..
2 ) We want the human species to continue to exist because they represent our genetic descendants and offspring.
YES WE DO ..
3 ) We want our genetic descendants and offspring to survive because we care about them.
YES WE DO ..
4 ) We care about them because evolution selected for this trait.
Evolution because i am a plant or because i am a human? ..
5 ) Evolution is the fitness and selection of life to its environment.
Yes the strongest survive ..
6 ) Life is a self replicating chemical reaction.
100% of neurotransmitters, such as norepinephrine, serotonin, GABA, acetylcholine, aspartate, glutamate, are made of amino acids. 100% of hormones are made up of amino acids. Sex hormones are made up of amino acids plus fat or lipids.
7 ) Chemical reactions are the spontaneous thing that happens when higher energy compounds are converted to lower energy compounds.
If the products are associated with less energy, then the conversion of the reactants to products is a spontaneous process ..
8 ) Spontaneous reactions occur throughout the universe and are ultimately processes of basic physics and chemistry.
YES ..
9 ) Basic physics and chemistry have no value or meaning they just happens to occur.
Basic physics and chemistry have a meaning?.If you add the 2 together you get value?..
Meaning they just happens to occur..What happens to occur?.. Gives you meaning?..

Therefore your "purpose" also has no objective value or meaning it is ultimately just the spontaneous result of simple physics and chemistry.Yes and that's why  no god ..

Personally I entirely disagree with this argument. However, if you are not a moral nihilist you have to prove this argument is false not just say "no its not" or say you don't like it but prove it to be false.

[CoinCube]

Yes and that's why  no god  ..

Popcorn1 you appear to be both an atheist and a moral nihilist. Congratulations your worldview appears to be rational. However, don't get too cocky.

Remember: Evil is often Rational

I have argued elsewhere that the philosophy of nihilism is not comparable with the sustained growth of knowledge and is thus inherently destructive. However, those arguments are too long and abstract to reproduce in this post. If you wish to read them they start here.

Unfortunately time constraints will prevent me from participating further in this debate. I agree with af_newbie that this is indeed a fundamental choice. You can embrace a belief of existential nothingness that is inherently self-destructive or you can choose something better.

Your pick.

[popcorn1]

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.
I am a non believer but one day we will make our own new world or find another ..

Atheism is irrational unless it is absolute nihilism this is simple fact.?
So what you just said is a lie?.. I have just proved you wrong

Atheism is irrational?..
Make our own new world find another new world.. Is what i say absolute nihilism?..

So as an atheist how am i irrational..

Make our own new world find another new world..A PURPOSE ..

Why do you think i keep saying science is the key to life?..It gives us a purpose..
You wont find it rattling bones praying or voodoo..
we have found out through science one day this planet will blow up or the sun will die?..
What's our purpose?..

So as an atheist what i said is it absolute nihilism..And is it useless to want to find new worlds or make
another?..

Ok lets go a bit deeper looking at this through the worldview of moral nihilism. Moral nihilism is not the deepest form of nihilism but it is the most common.

You say that your purpose in life is to work towards finding another world for humanity to live on.
Lets take a look at your purpose from the perspective of nihilism:

1 ) We want to find a new world so that the human species continues to exist after the sun goes out.
2 ) We want the human species to continue to exist because they represent our genetic descendants and offspring.
3 ) We want our genetic descendants and offspring to survive because we care about them.
4 ) We care about them because evolution selected for this trait.
5 ) Evolution is the fitness and selection of life to its environment.
6 ) Life is a self replicating chemical reaction.
7 ) Chemical reactions are the spontaneous thing that happens when higher energy compounds are converted to lower energy compounds.
8 ) Spontaneous reactions occur throughout the universe and are ultimately processes of basic physics and chemistry.
9 ) Basic physics and chemistry have no value or meaning they just happen to occur.

Therefore your "purpose" also has no objective value or meaning it is ultimately just the spontaneous result of simple physics and chemistry.

Personally I entirely disagree with this argument. However, if you are not a moral nihilist you have to prove this argument is false not just say "no its not" or say you don't like it but prove it to be false.

On a biological level the purpose in life is to pass your genetic material to future generations.  This is hardwired into all living things, plants and animals.

On a personal level, the purpose of one's live is to enjoy it.  You only got one, so enjoy it in whatever you do.  Believe in some bat shit crazy bronze age stuff or teach people about the evils of religions.

Your pick.

Why would the earth create a human?..symbiotic relationship or a cancer?..

On a personal level, the purpose of one's live is to enjoy it..If you had no money would you?..
Just a couple of things to think about ..

But everything you say is spot on..NEVER STOP teach people about the evils of religions..
Stops people from being STUPID ..I.E blowing themselves up ..

[popcorn1]

Yes and that's why  no god  ..

Popcorn1 you appear to be both an atheist and a moral nihilist. Congratulations your worldview is appears to be rational. However, don't get too cocky.

Remember: Evil is often Rational

I have argued elsewhere that the philosophy of nihilism is not comparable with the sustained growth of knowledge and is thus inherently destructive. However, those arguments are too long and abstract to reproduce in this post. If you wish to read them they start here.

Unfortunately time constraints will prevent me from participating further in this debate. I agree with  
af_newbie that this is indeed a fundamental choice. You can embrace a belief of existential nothingness that is inherently self-destructive or you can choose something better.

Your pick.

Some people have no choice ..
Finland Is Giving $587 A Month to 2,000 Citizens, No Questions Asked ...
fortune.com/2017/01/03/finland-universal-basic-income-experiment/
7 days ago - Finland Is Giving Nearly $600 a Month to 2,000 Jobless Citizens, No ... well as how people will spend the free money, reports Business Insider.

If it happens then we got free choice ..That is my fight free money for all rich or poor..
Everybody gets a starting point to spend..EVERYBODY ..

It's looking good..People say it makes people lazy..Yes if you give them to much it would..
But just enough to get you by makes you want to earn that little bit more..

Plus it saves on people mental health ..Well we all know what poverty can do..
Poverty cost?..

Police.. jails.. hospitals.. insurance claims.. courts..All will save money if people have a basic income..

I think a poor person who steals which is most poor people or be no need to steal?..
The crime they commit can cost the tax payer about 3 million over a criminals life time EASY..
Think about it..

The police call out..The cars they need..The cells and station..The jails they go to..
The court cost for lawyers and judges..The criminal damages..
The victim goes to hospital claims insurance for damages..

That's just 1 offence say he does 300 over his life time?..
Some people in the uk have 300 convictions for house theft.. ..
But that's what having no money does to some people they end up doing stupid stuff to get it..

But with basic income peoples lives become much better and less crime and people grow healthier ..

And no they don't become LAZY..It's looking really good the outcome..
Remember even when you work you still get it..NO QUESTIONS ASKED..

[popcorn1]

Elon Musk: Moving Toward Universal Basic Income Due To ... - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 2:02
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJgtRBkFnfw
4 Nov 2016 - Uploaded by CNBC
Tesla and SpaceX founder Elon Musk told CNBC on Friday that economies would most likely need a form of

Elon Musk - Universal incomes and robots. - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 9:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJB9FrBQKCs

Basic Income: Has its Time Come? - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 26:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhugmXSHdfE

U.S. Congress Discusses AI, Automation, Robotics and Basic Income ...
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 1:50:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX06f3DPXt4
28 May 2016 - Uploaded by Singularity Lectures

Universal Basic Income - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 3:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqESogRgrYw
29 Sep 2016 - Uploaded by Inequality Media
Robert Reich explains why a universal basic income may be the answer. Learn...

I believe in us humans to do the right thing..
LETS GET THE OLD THINKERS OUT  ..They kill our children to line there own pockets ..

When people have money they have less children and the children turn out to be good citizens instead of bad ones ..

[BADecker]

Elon Musk: Moving Toward Universal Basic Income Due To ... - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 2:02
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJgtRBkFnfw
4 Nov 2016 - Uploaded by CNBC
Tesla and SpaceX founder Elon Musk told CNBC on Friday that economies would most likely need a form of

Elon Musk - Universal incomes and robots. - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 9:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJB9FrBQKCs

Basic Income: Has its Time Come? - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 26:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhugmXSHdfE

U.S. Congress Discusses AI, Automation, Robotics and Basic Income ...
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 1:50:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX06f3DPXt4
28 May 2016 - Uploaded by Singularity Lectures

Universal Basic Income - YouTube
Video for elon musk wants universal income youtube▶ 3:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqESogRgrYw
29 Sep 2016 - Uploaded by Inequality Media
Robert Reich explains why a universal basic income may be the answer. Learn...

I believe in us humans to do the right thing..
LETS GET THE OLD THINKERS OUT  ..They kill our children to line there own pockets ..

When people have money they have less children and the children turn out to be good citizens instead of bad ones ..

Since God placed the knowledge of good and evil into people, you can trust in people, because God made them to be trustworthy. But, can you trust yourself?

[Jackido]

Yes, Of course I always believe in God an I 'd like to say prayer with God while i'm working or travelling around and I 'm blessed by God.
I feel happy and peaceful in God and I believe that God is real.

[CoinCube]

Leftism is the religion which promises the individual he/she can entirely free, protected, while protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected.

Sounds very noble right? Read on...

All religions exist to protect the society (and the family) against the defection of the individual. Traditional religions argue that subjugation of some of the "evil" whims of the individual (e.g. extra-martial affairs) is necessary to maximize the success of the society, e.g. children who grow up without their fathers usually do statistically much worse in life in various metrics, including health.

Whereas, in leftism the "evil" is not "protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected". But what does this really mean? It is double-speak. It really means to steal from production so as to enable people to abandon their moral responsibilities so that the society can be utterly destroyed by hedonism and other ramifications of offering everyone "state-supported freedom" (which is a guaranteed megadeath hell in the future).

But don't dare tell the leftist, atheists that their idealism is corrupt, bankrupt, and disingenuous. They will gut you with a knife if you dare challenge the veracity of their beloved social justice.

"Entirely free" means you can do what ever you want and there are no NATURAL LAW ramifications (the State will always support your right to do what ever you want), as long as you support the State's right to protect and economically provide for everyone's right to do what ever they want. In other words, a "free for all" of political correctness and stealing.

But NATURAL LAW in inviolable. No State can protect every individual from the NATURAL LAW. And if you tell people they can be entirely free (including economic freedom for everyone and every whim), then you have lied.

In short, leftism is a Tragedy of the Commons. Thus is a false religion. It lies. It is Satan's religion.

To understand society we need to understand what our options are. There are only two ways to build and sustain a large and complex society. The first is oppression and slavery. Using oppression and slavery one can enforce control through violence. The second and far harder path is to build a free society but this path is challenging and slow as humans are not inherently designed to function in large groups.

Whatever tribal hardwiring humans have it is designed for small groups where all members are known watched and observed. Maintaining a group larger then a tribe requires either the oppression of a police state or in the case of a free society a moral populace. This was well stated by Henning Web Prentis, Jr who described how the loss of morality would take a people from freedom to bondage.

Paradoxically enough, the release of initiative and enterprise made possible by popular self-government ultimately generates disintegrating forces from within. Again and again after freedom has brought opportunity and some degree of plenty, the competent become selfish, luxury-loving and complacent, the incompetent and the unfortunate grow envious and covetous, and all three groups turn aside from the hard road of freedom to worship the Golden Calf of economic security.

The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."

It is moral degradation that leads to bondage for it is moral strengthening that allows free societies to be built in the first place.

This is why Ethical Monotheism is so important and the reason why so much that is good in the world came from the west. It is Ethical Monotheism that teaches us not to sin even when dealing with strangers.

Whatever other factors may be present in an act of wrongdoing, folly is one that is never absent. To do a wrong act a man must for the moment think wrong; he must exercise bad judgment.

Sin, I repeat, in addition to anything else it may be, is always an act of wrong judgment. To commit a sin a man must for the moment believe that things are different from what they really are; he must confound values; he must see the moral universe out of focus; he must accept a lie as truth and see truth as a lie; he must ignore the signs on the highway and drive with his eyes shut; he must act as if he had no soul and was not accountable for his moral choices.

Sin is never a thing to be proud of. No act is wise that ignores remote consequences, and sin always does. Sin sees only today, or at most tomorrow; never the day after tomorrow, next month or next year. Death and judgment are pushed aside as if they did not exist...

Sin is basically an act of moral folly, and the greater the folly the greater the fool.

 

[dippididodaday]

No man can divide and conquer quite as effectively as the ethical "Monotheistic God" can. Look at how exceedingly well "Ethical Monotheistic God" has conquered for his kingdom right across the globe, through the religions that originated in the mid east, a multitude of beautifully organized NATURALLY formed indigenous cultures. Look how much more wonderfully integrated and balanced these cultures, who have existed for thousands of years on their own, have become since "God" has enacted his astoundingly magnificent ethical kingdom into their hearts - all across the globe. It is by far the best testament to his abundantly overflowing love and respect for the diversity (of cultures) he himself has ordained eons ago.

[QuestionAuthority]

Too bad Moonshadow is a scammer now. As a hardcore Jesus freak he would love this thread.

[CoinCube]

No man can divide and conquer quite as effectively as the ethical "Monotheistic God" can. Look at how exceedingly well "Ethical Monotheistic God" has conquered for his kingdom right across the globe, through the religions that originated in the mid east, a multitude of beautifully organized NATURALLY formed indigenous cultures. Look how much more wonderfully integrated and balanced these cultures, who have existed for thousands of years on their own, have become since "God" has enacted his astoundingly magnificent ethical kingdom into their hearts - all across the globe. It is by far the best testament to his abundantly overflowing love and respect for the diversity (of cultures) he himself has ordained eons ago.

Just to clarify are we talking about the same cultures I think we are?

http://siamagazin.com/10-chilling-true-stories-of-human-sacrifice/

Mayan Blood Sacrifices


Aztec Human Sacrifices


Incan Children Sacrifices


Child Sacrifice in Carthage


Human Sacrifice in Hawaii



The reality is that theses societies and their "gods" were simply systems of oppression. If you don't understand that you don't understand history.

The ‘darker link’ between ancient human sacrifice and our modern world
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/05/the-darker-link-between-ancient-human-sacrifice-and-our-modern-world/?utm_term=.ad86596e364a

The ancients could kill you in a million different ways and give you a million different reasons why it needed to be done. In much of the pre-modern world, ritual sacrifice was framed as necessary for the good of the society at large — the only way to guarantee, say, a plentiful harvest or success in war.

But the priests and rulers who sanctioned such killings may have had another motive, a new study suggests. An analysis of more than seven dozen Austronesian cultures revealed that the practice of human sacrifices tended to make societies increasingly less egalitarian and eventually gave rise to strict, inherited class systems. In other words, ritual killings helped keep the powerful in power and everyone else in check.

That finding might seem intuitive — societies in which some members are habitually killed probably value certain lives over others — but it has broader implications, the researchers said in the journal Nature. It suggests a “darker link between religion and the evolution of modern hierarchical societies,” they write, in which “ritual killings helped humans transition from the small egalitarian groups of our ancestors and the large, stratified societies we live in today.”

The motivation and method of the killings differed across cultures, the researchers explain in a piece for the Conversation: Sacrifices could be demanded for the death of a chief, the construction of a home, the start of a war, the outbreak of disease or the violation of a social taboo. The victims might be strangled, drowned, bludgeoned, burned, buried, crushed with a newly built canoe, or rolled off a roof and then decapitated.

But the link between the sacrifices and social hierarchies seemed to transcend those differences. The victims were almost always of low social status, and the more stratified the culture was, the more prevalent ritual killings were likely to be.

This finding supports the “social control hypothesis” of human sacrifice, the researchers said. This idea suggests that ritual killings are a way to terrorize people into submission, allowing the religious and political leaders (and in many cultures, those were one and the same) who ordered the killings to consolidate power unopposed.

There are only two ways to build and sustain a large and complex society. The first is oppression and slavery. The second and far harder path is to build a free society.

God and Ethical Monotheism help us build the latter. Nihilism destroys knowledge and thus leads to the former.

[bitcoinboy12]

But just what if the question refers to a more holistic God context. As in the age-old idea of God. The God beyond all else, the God governing everything. Across diverse religion, do anyone of you believe in that?