Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[kkaspar]

Fair enough that you have your mantra or your view of things in which you seem to want to simplify and to describe BTC bullishness attitudes as a form of cultish behavior.

 Frequently, there is some truth to any fiction and/or any propaganda, including the framework that you are outlining.  

I do NOT really have any major problem with you having your viewpoint and expressing it - though I remain somewhat bothered that your simplification has a tendency to dilute and distract and to mislead....  and also sometimes it rises to the level of patronizing and criticizing guys for being blind followers - when that frequently is NOT the case.  YET, I have seen that a few of your posts have made decent points, from time to time, so long as you steer clear from what seems to rise to personal attacks.

By the way, my various times stating, millions, billions or gazillions, it does NOT matter was to suggest that the exact number was NOT the point that was being made at that particular time... though, I recognize that sometimes, we may need to get fairly specific concerning the numbers that we are considering.... .. and in that regard if we were to take a snapshot of bitcoin's current infrastructure, we are going to come up with several ways to calculate the value of that infrastructure.. and some ways are going to produce larger numbers depending upon which aspects of the infrastructure that are included in such snapshot(s).

I know that I can be patronizing and sarcastic, but I have discovered that it's the best way to go here if you want to stay sane. When I used to go into serious arguments with people here, and hear, that I'm shortsighted and even anti-technology, if I don't see for example, that bitcoin will solve worlds banking problems, or how there is no deflation problem with bitcoin, or how bitcoin is "sound money" compared to fiat, then I saw that if I'll continue to take this conversation seriously, then the joke's on me. Just imagine yourself talking to Christian radicals who are telling you that you are blind and influenced by the devil if you don't believe that the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days. And all the proof that says otherwise, is the work of the devil and should be dismissed. The same thing works here only the devil form has been given to banksters.

The funny thing is that most of my friends or acquaintances, who know my involvement with bitcoin, think that I'm really bullish for bitcoin just because I'm involved. I have explained them that bitcoin indeed is a shady get-rich-quick scheme where you can earn money if you gamble smart, but the idea of independent and transparent, information technology based monetary systems, really have a bigger future.

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[JorgeStolfi]

I just got a call from a reporter of a local newspaper, he wanted to know more about the failures of the exchanges that are on the news.

I told him that I know nothing about bitcoin, except that some bitcoin investors are extremely agressive and will insult anyone who does not belive that bitcoin is the Messiah and everything it touched is gold.

(I am kidding of course.  I just told him a bit of what you all know, and the opinions I expressed here many times already.)

 

[KFR]

I can also, sadly, agree that instead of accepting your mistake and shifting your position accordingly - as one might expect a serious academic or scientist to do - you doubled down on your position and started to try and pull apart the audits that you had just previously denied existed.

I affirmed that there were no audits, and that is a fact.  What Ver and Antonopoulos did were not audits (even Ver admitted that).  Saying that they were audits is a lie. 

So, since you're so keen to talk semantics, let's get stuck in shall we?

Well... none of the other exchanges has volunteered to give even a rough idea of their financial position, especially how many BTC they owe and how many BTC they own.

I count that as "real and material" evidence that they must be in some sort of Karpelian situation themselves. 

You realise you made an absolute statement there?  You surely also now accept that statement was factually incorrect?  We can shift to talk about how I today chose to use the word 'audit' and how one defines an audit but I don't think that's constructive, helpful or even germane to the point I was making.   Read your words again please.

I'm trying to highlight - to you - how your bias has corrupted your research.  As with this particular example, this bias usually seems to manifest itself in flawed assumptions based on a lack of research and casually delivered as if they were the authoritative objective assessment of an unbiased observer after conducting thorough research.  Well that's clearly not the case any more - if indeed it ever was.

I'm not sure why it's our job to point out to you your own mistakes - I'm simply explaining why the social and intellectual capital you brought and developed here appears to have been wasted, which is disappointing.

[zyk]

its not enthusiasm believe me....its just feeling culpable for having sold the goxcoins profiteering from other peoples Stockholm syndrom..

or who were blinded  to see through this " making the Ponzi work to rid the last idiot of his monies" which is still going on because nobody wants to

accept the fact that there have been 800000 stolen coins sold down to a hundred dollars at empty Gox.....

I would be rather worried that the plug is again pulled- why not tomorrow morning ? - nobody else suspicious why it is being held at 650 if you ´d really

come to your senses thinking the matters through ?   ok then cheers

WTF are you talking about? Plug is pulled by who?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500314.new#new

by the entities called Mr. X in here, if you dare to think about the goxcoins sold....

[aminorex]

We can shift to talk about how I today chose to use the word 'audit' and how one defines an audit but I don't think that's constructive, helpful or even germane to the point I was making. 

Aye.  This is a behavioural problem which seems to be endemic to those who deride bitcoin.  I'm not sure whether it is an intentional assault on good sense, or evidence of an organic problem, but it is amazingly pervasive in that demographic.  Certain patterns of fallacy seem to either cause or derive from the oppositional mania.

[KFR]

I love how everyone is double-spacing after their periods now.  Its like a blast from the past.

You're pretty unlikely to find anything where I don't do that.  Old habits die hard and, as many here have pointed out, if you learned to type when typewriters and word processors were still a thing, it's pretty standard behaviour.

[JorgeStolfi]

Well... none of the other exchanges has volunteered to give even a rough idea of their financial position, especially how many BTC they owe and how many BTC they own.

You realise you made an absolute statement there?  You surely also now accept that statement was factually incorrect? 

OK, so enlighten me: how many BTC does Bitstamp own, and how many does it owe its clients (i.e. what is the sum of the BTC balances of their clients' accounts)?  Ditto for BTC-e and Bitfinex.

[KFR]

Still not ready to do it, eh?

I'll try one more time.

You said: "none of the other exchanges has volunteered to give even a rough idea of their financial position, especially how many BTC they owe and how many BTC they own."

Was that factually correct?

[JorgeStolfi]

Still not ready to do it, eh?

I'll try one more time.

You said: "none of the other exchanges has volunteered to give even a rough idea of their financial position, especially how many BTC they owe and how many BTC they own."

Was that factually correct?

Was it not?

[zyk]

why did they all knew of Mt. Gox being insolvent when the faked 2 bitidiot came out and made patently clear they of course are not

[JayJuanGee]

Interesting. I've been waiting on some news to come out so we could judge, based on market reaction, whether we are still in a bear market or not.

Here on the forum the bears are out in full force. But the exchanges have only gone down slightly. This is the kind of semi-neutral news that could be interpreted good or bad, with a slight lean towards bad.

But the exchanges are holding their own so far. If we go up from here, I might reconsider whether this bear market still has legs.

don´t see any bears here yet besides me and kaspar

Right. But the two of you are taking up over 50% of the posts. Your enthusiasm about this news is obvious and representative.

its not enthusiasm believe me....its just feeling culpable for having sold the goxcoins profiteering from other peoples Stockholm syndrom..

or who were blinded  to see through this " making the Ponzi work to rid the last idiot of his monies" which is still going on because nobody wants to

accept the fact that there have been 800000 stolen coins sold down to a hundred dollars at empty Gox.....

I would be rather worried that the plug is again pulled- why not tomorrow morning ? - nobody else suspicious why it is being held at 650 if you ´d really

come to your senses thinking the matters through ?   ok then cheers

I don't doubt that there are various plots to undermine BTC prices and to undermine the whole public perception regarding BTC.  HOWEVER, the prices are ONLY going to be able to be held DOWN for so long.  After a while the dam is going to have to burst b/c the whale bots are NOT going to be able to stop the upward momentum... whether that takes a few days, a few weeks or several months, the time is gonna come.. likely before the end of the calendar year in which we are probably be in the $1500 or more area.. outside of the control of the whale/bot manipulators or whoever else may be engaging in tactics to keep BTC prices down.

[Solarstorm75]

Well... none of the other exchanges has volunteered to give even a rough idea of their financial position, especially how many BTC they owe and how many BTC they own.

You realise you made an absolute statement there?  You surely also now accept that statement was factually incorrect? 

OK, so enlighten me: how many BTC does Bitstamp own, and how many does it owe its clients (i.e. what is the sum of the BTC balances of their clients' accounts)?  Ditto for BTC-e and Bitfinex.

Don't know, if posted already:

https://www.bitstamp.net/article/statemen-regarding-recent-third-party-audit-report/

[derpinheimer]

why did they all knew of Mt. Gox being insolvent when the faked 2 bitidiot came out and made patently clear they of course are not

English please.

[JorgeStolfi]

Still not ready to do it, eh?

Up one level.  Are you trying to argue that there is no risk that other exchanges will go MtGOX's way?

[JorgeStolfi]

OK, so enlighten me: how many BTC does Bitstamp own, and how many does it owe its clients (i.e. what is the sum of the BTC balances of their clients' accounts)?  Ditto for BTC-e and Bitfinex.

Don't know, if posted already:

https://www.bitstamp.net/article/statemen-regarding-recent-third-party-audit-report/
[/quote]

I see.  For you "audit" means a statement by the company that they have done an audit and everything was OK.   So it was only a misunderstanding on the meaning of that word, sorry.

[KeyserSoze]

Still not ready to do it, eh?

Up one level.  Are you trying to argue that there is no risk that other exchanges will go MtGOX's way?

LOL, Jorge's dodge reminds me of DEA Administrator Michele Leonhart dodging questions from Congressman Jared Polis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFgrB2Wmh5s

[KFR]

Still not ready to do it, eh?

I'll try one more time.

You said: "none of the other exchanges has volunteered to give even a rough idea of their financial position, especially how many BTC they owe and how many BTC they own."

Was that factually correct?

Was it not?

You know it wasn't.  The cognitive dissonance on display here is astounding.

I immediately threw up two links - which you yourself could and should have known about that clearly demonstrated at least two "exchanges volunteering to give a rough idea of their financial position."

So.  No.  It wasn't factually correct.

It was presented as so.  

Somewhere therein lies the problem.  I'll leave the complexities of that for you to resolve.  

[zyk]

why did they all knew of Mt. Gox being insolvent when the faked 2 bitidiot came out and made patently clear they of course are not

English please.

"Working on Bitcoin's core code is really scary, actually, because if you wreck something, you can break this huge $8 billion project," says Andresen. "And that's happened. We have broken it in the past."

[JayJuanGee]

Is Satoshi cashing out or not? Please advise 

Not yet, there is a planned number that's not yet reached...

Do you really think satoshi would have imagined that bitcoin would reach $1000 when he first started?
IF he had a planned number, im pretty sure we have already reached it.

Are you telling me that it even doesn't make sense to Satoshi that bitcoins price is this high?

Depends on your view. Do you really think that satoshi thought bitcoin would go to $1000 when he started at $0?

I think that Satoshi thought that bitcoin will go to $1000 and not stop there. I thing that Satoshi estimated bitcoin maximum final price to be either $160 000 (replacing annual VISA volume) or $330 000 (replacing gold) or $800 000 (replacing USA GNP). He did not estimate bitcoin to go over $4 500 000 (If all the world economy was converted to bitcoins.).

That would be totally amazing if bitcoin were to take over all of the world economy... and really that kind of scenario seems pretty highly unlikely... b/c there would seem to be some value in retaining some value in other asset classes.. besides bitcoin..

[derpinheimer]

why did they all knew of Mt. Gox being insolvent when the faked 2 bitidiot came out and made patently clear they of course are not

English please.

"Working on Bitcoin's core code is really scary, actually, because if you wreck something, you can break this huge $8 billion project," says Andresen. "And that's happened. We have broken it in the past."

Thanks for that, but I was wondering if someone could translate this: "why did they all knew of Mt. Gox being insolvent when the faked 2 bitidiot came out and made patently clear they of course are not " to English?