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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26384258 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
JayJuanGee
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August 04, 2014, 11:16:23 PM


Oh and please save the "I used credit card and pay it off right away just to earn cash back/points" speech. If you actually do, you're one of a handful. Hence the billions of dollars in profits from those who don't.

That is the ONLY smart way to use credit cards, and a larger number of people do this than you give credit....

The credit card companies profit enormously from the small percentage of people who do NOT pay off their credit cards every month.  There is so much profit in the smaller number that they can afford the rest... also, they charge the extra cost on the merchant side in order that the consumer really does NOT see or consciously consider the extreme quantity of profits that credit card companies are raking in.
Peter R
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August 04, 2014, 11:19:12 PM

Your points about debt are irrelevant, since BTC is not debt. Why would I spend my assets (BTC), when I can spend my assets ($$) by using a credit card and thereby get paid for it?

I pay my credit card off in full every month, but I would love nothing more than to ditch it and never look back.  My problems with credit cards:

- I don't want to borrow money that I don't need just to buy something online. 

- I don't want spend 5 minutes entering my credit card details and personal information, especially when the site later rejects it because "I'm Canadian."

- It's annoying to log into my online banking to pay off my credit card and I don't like setting things to "auto pay."  I just want to pay cash online once and be done with it!

- Approximately once a year something "goes wrong" and any benefits are washed away.

- Examples of things going wrong:

     + early this year my credit card was suspended because I made a sizeable purchase from a luxury women's apparel store.  When asked why this triggered a suspension, the CSR said "because you're not a women."  I suppose Visa thinks that men don't buy gifts for women.  The embarrassment of having my credit card declined on a subsequent purchase (because it was suspended) and then sitting on hold for what felt like half an hour to get the problem sorted out costs more in time and annoyance than any "rewards."  <-- and I'm not a dog, I don't want "reward treats," I just want to pay the market price.

     + last year, my bank had a computer problem and one of my payments against my Visa card got cancelled.  The bank contacted me to let me know that I should resubmit the payment, but this made the payment late according to Visa.  This was just after I had got back from a holiday so I had a large balance on the card.  The interest payments I was charged offset any benefits. 

     + very recently, my card got charged for something that I didn't purchase.  I called Visa and they had a "technical problem" and were unable to cancel my credit card and issue me a new one.  The claimed that "it didn't make sense why they couldn't cancel the card--their system just wouldn't let them."  But then they said they couldn't open a dispute for the unauthorized charges until they cancelled the card!  Anyways, it eventually got sorted out and they removed the fraudulent charges, but the annoyance of making several calls to Visa over the course of a few weeks probably cost me almost a full day of my time in total.  In the past, I've just paid small fraudulent charges (for example, I was being charge $3.49 / month for god-knows-what for a few years) because it's usual cheaper and always less annoying than dealing with the problem LOL. 

So, for me, the benefits of moving completely to bitcoin would be huge.  When you factor in the value of your time and the annoyance of dealing with customer service representatives on the phone, bitcoin is vastly more efficient for me. 
adamstgBit
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August 04, 2014, 11:32:33 PM

bigasic
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August 04, 2014, 11:33:45 PM

i can't wait til we get to the good ole days of "CHOO CHOO MOTHER FUCKER"...
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August 04, 2014, 11:34:01 PM

The fact that you provide all the private information required to access the entire account with every CC transaction is a HUGE disadvantage vs. Bitcoin.  If there's one thing I am positive of, it's that all financial transactions will eventually move away from that model to bitcoin or something else that doesn't have this glaring hole.
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August 04, 2014, 11:59:52 PM


Explanation
aminorex
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August 05, 2014, 12:12:51 AM

Not really leveling expectations as much as commenting on it from a consumer standpoint. Why spend BTC and buy it back, when I can get cash back for using my credit card?

BTC isn't for everything.  But if you own some, it is in your interest to induce vendors to accept it.  When vendors offer discounts, it is pretty obvious why you would use BTC.

Because BTC is a preferred savings vehicle for volatility-tolerant long-term savers desiring wealth appreciation, a substantial amount of wealth is stored in BTC, and hence it is in the interest of vendors to support a client's preference for BTC payments.  Because the value of held BTC increases as the size of the economy grows, it is in the interests of long-term holders to transact in BTC.  It is a win-win situation for both sides of any transaction, therefore.  Since it is in everyone's interest to transact in BTC, it seems inevitable that an increasing share of transactions will be conducted in BTC.

Since is costs about 3% (more like 12-15% with chargebacks) for a vendor to accept your credit card, you can anticipate spending at least 10% less on any given item when you purchase it with bitcoin.  In essence, unless you are dealing with a reputable vendor, you are self-insuring instead of relying on the processor to insure your transaction.  If you deal primarily with reputable vendors, this is a particularly good deal for you, as a consumer.

aminorex
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August 05, 2014, 12:17:23 AM

It works both ways you know? Why should retailers accept bitcoin? Except no transaction fee on a couple of purchases from a few internet geeks. Why spend the hours educating myself on it, make sure I'm compliant, etc etc.

Retailers like rich customers - means larger revenues.

No fraud - means larger profit margins.
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August 05, 2014, 12:23:33 AM

When you guys trade BTC you need to take into account all the major markets such as BitFinex, BitStamp, OKCoin and BTCChina.

Problem is that the USD/CNY exchange rate differs and its hard to find a perfect long/short on all the different bitcoin markets.

BTCChina is by far the largest and should get the most importance.
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August 05, 2014, 12:50:19 AM
Last edit: August 05, 2014, 01:14:13 AM by adamstgBit



ChartBuddy
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August 05, 2014, 12:59:52 AM


Explanation
adamstgBit
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August 05, 2014, 01:32:06 AM

adamstgBit
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August 05, 2014, 01:43:31 AM

5,000$
Chef Ramsay
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August 05, 2014, 01:49:29 AM

5,000$

Hah, it's the Top Gear guy. Was watching Gordon's "Kitchen Nightmares" for the first time in like a year today on tv and this show came on afterwards. I like the cool cars but not really into the rest of it/goofiness.
ChartBuddy
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August 05, 2014, 01:59:51 AM


Explanation
hdbuck
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August 05, 2014, 02:02:51 AM
Last edit: August 05, 2014, 02:20:43 AM by hdbuck


JorgeStolfi
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August 05, 2014, 02:21:47 AM

When you guys trade BTC you need to take into account all the major markets such as BitFinex, BitStamp, OKCoin and BTCChina.

Problem is that the USD/CNY exchange rate differs and its hard to find a perfect long/short on all the different bitcoin markets.

BTCChina is by far the largest and should get the most importance.
Actually the largest markets are OKCoin (varies around 30'000 BTC/day) and Huobi (about 15'000 BTC/day).

BTCChina was big during the October and November rallies, with 50'000 BTC/day or more,  but then lost almost all its volume when it lost its bank accounts (around Dec/19) and has been struggling to recover since then.  It is still at  abut 1/10 of that.

There are a few other exchanges in China, but there is almost no data about them.  Earlier this year the five largest together may have had as much volume as Huobi or OKCoin; but two of them, at least, closed in April-May.

Bitstamp, Bitfinex, and BTC-e have even smaller volume than BTC-China.

It is often said that the volume at Huobi and OKCoin shoudl be ignored because it is "misleading" or even "fake".  Yet there is little evdence of "fake" trades there, but some evidence that the trade is quite real.

Yes, sure, one of the reasons why OKCoin and Huobi have so much volume is that they do not charge trading fees.  That does not make their volume less legitimate.  Yes, sure, zero fees induce traders to do more trading, but also attarct and keep more traders; and a trader that trades 10 times per day is not much different than10 traders who trade once a day. 

(There is a question of how deep the order books are, but no one knows the "real" order book of any exchange -- namely, the amount of coins and money sitting on traders' accounts or their "cold wallets" outside the exchange, not on the order book but ready to jump in if the price changes enough.)

One could turn the "zero fee" argument around and say that trading fees depress trading, create an artificially wide spread, prevents the price from tracking small movements in other exchanges, obscures trends, etc.; so one should disregard from analysis any exchange that charges trading fees.

Anyway, whatever one thinks of zero fee volume, it is beyond obvious that all the major changes in the price since November, if not since last April, were generated by the Chinese traders reacting to events that were relevant to them , with little influence of events and markets outside China. The price is usually stable when it is late night in China, and starts moving when it is 07:00 or 08:00 am there.  The price was still during the week in early February when Chinese banks were closed, and started dropping as soon as they opened.   It is often hard to tell which exchange led a particular crash or rally (since arbitrage robots usually propagate the change in less than a minute); but, when there is a clear leader, it is almost always Huobi or OKCoin.  And so on.

The myth of "fake volume" is commonly repeated because it helps hide the unpleasant fact that the price is sustained at the current levels only by the Chinese traders, and its future is entirely at their mercy.  Obviously, that fact would make bitcoin-backed funds very hard to sell. 
Quote
"By investing in our fund, you will place your savings in the hands of thousands upon thousands of Chinese amateur day-traders, who have embraced bitcoin as their favorite item of speculation last year, and still show no sign of getting tired of it, dumping all their coins, and moving on to something else."
Quote
"The outlook for our fund is quite bright for this year.  We have consulted someone who has a former high-school friend who now lives in Seoul, which is a city not far from China, and he has no information about any plans of the PBoC closing any exchanges next week.  Assuming that said state of affairs will persist for the following 51 weeks, the value of our shares is expected to maintain the same level of stability that it has maintained in the last six months."
Quote
"Bitcoin has made exciting progress this year, with hundreds of stores now accepting doll bitcoins, several bitcoin funds being announced, and -- finally -- categorical statements by leading Wall Observer Street figures that NASDAQ trading maybe perhaps will be authorized by the SEC at some point in the future.  Even though none of that matters to the Chinese day traders who will set the value of our shares, we felt that our clients would be pleased to know about it."

You get the idea. That is why OKCoin and Huobi must be declared irrelevant and omitted from any statistics.
adamstgBit
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August 05, 2014, 02:25:17 AM

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August 05, 2014, 02:37:46 AM

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August 05, 2014, 02:59:52 AM


Explanation
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