Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[PoolMinor]

@ Jorge and others that still don't get it.

bitcoin: The price we pay to store information on the blockchain.

Bitcoin: The protocol that employs the open source ledger of information that is secured via payment of bitcoin.

[Elwar]

"Hoarders" is just a disparaging term for savers. Any economy needs savings for capital formation.

"Saver" i a very general term.  In the context of this discussion a "hoarder" is one who saves by colelcting a currency. Not meant to be disparaging -- although that is usually not a wise way to save.

Jorge and other Keynesians hate people saving their money because then nobody has a safety net. Without a safety net this necessitates the government to provide it. And there is nothing Keynesians love more than government force. The government should control the currency, the government should make all of the decisions. For professors that live in their little socialist bubble where they are the top dogs in the socialist sphere they see it as quite the reasonable system. Forgetting that outside of their little bubble there is the world of the free market that keeps their little bubble going.

As you have all of this knowledge of Bitcoin but, like every banker and other professor like the "blockchain" but not Bitcoin (mainly because it is more like gold than the dollar) then I suggest you go create your own Federal Reserve Coin. Being the creator you can live under even more eliteness because you will be in control of it. Change the currency all the time so it matches up with the dollar, add inflation so that people don't hoard it (even though Bitcoin currently has a 12% inflation rate and yet people still hold long term). Create your masterpiece and go to the bankers for their support. Get rid of anonymity, have the government issue trackers for anyone buying so that everyone's money can be tracked and people can be properly spied on to make sure they're buying the "right" things (approved by the government). Maybe the banks will even run the mining for you so that no miners get profit. What a grand utopia of Keynesianism and centralized control.

[billyjoeallen]

Can you imagine a design of cryptocurrency that would be to your liking, or is the concept as a whole damned to failure in your mind?

Hopefully that negative interest would be enough to dissuade hoarders and speculators.  

Most of this forum think the inflation of fiat currencies is a bad thing and that bitcoin has solved a problem with its fixed supply. They dont understand that inflation is a very important tool to keep investments going.


Imagine your national currency without inflation. The money you have in your pocket would never loose value. Seems nice if you dont have a lot of money but what happen if you had a lot of money. You could just hoard the money and live of ot for the rest of your life. There would be no interest in investing to make more money since investing is a risk.

With todays inflating fiat there is no point in hoarding money. Your money supply loose value if you just hoard them. You have to get the money out there and work for you. Either by investing or putting them in a bank and let them invest for you.

A fixed supply economy like bitcoin would be the end of investing. Why invest if you can just hodl to increase your holdings.

Perhaps you didn't read up where I explained that "hoarding" is savings and it is absolutely essential for a healthy economy.  If there is no incentive to consume less than one produces, an entire economy's wealth is stagnant at best and consumed in one generation at worst.  We are currently watching this play out on a global scale.

It's laughable to claim that there would be no investing with a deflationary currency. The late nineteenth century in America saw prices fall almost everywhere and a massive increase in the standard of living. People would still spend a currency even if they knew it would go up in value forever because nobody lives forever. They just wouldn't spend it frivolously. That's a bad thing? We all need billboard-sized flat screen television sets and a new car every two years?

[Fatman3001]

[btccashacc]

waiting 230$ 

[ChartBuddy]

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Explanation

[meyer lansky]

Hey BJA, when did you become such a pessimist? I use to enjoy reading your posts.

as a newbie,i enjoy he/she too.he/she is distinct!

[RenegadeMan]

In fact, many of the problems that he describes are in fact features and NOT bugs

Since you are a holder and speculator, of course we disagree on that.  In my view, you are one of bitcoin's problems.  

Little bit disingenuous of you to participate in a thread to judge others who are investing into something and to call them "problems" because they are investing.  What are you investing in?  naysaying the activities of others?

a claim that there needs to be a built in approximate 2% inflation (or devaluation) is preposterous because it supposedly addresses a non-existing problem, at least at this time.

so make it a bad investment?

Bitcoin was created to be a currency, not another speculative asset- and dividend-free investment fund (or pyramid scheme, its more honest name).  There is no shortage of the latter, and (as I wrote earlier) that use of bitcoin will not make the world better, create new wealth, or render some useful service; it will just move wealth from some people to other people.

You are full of shit!!!!  Bitcoin was created for a variety of purposes, including the currency aspect.  You seem to be oversimplifying matters in order to create strawmen arguments.  and mislead others by oversimplification.

Economists have know for 500 years that a currency must have some inflation, otherwise people will hoard it and it will not be available for use as a currency.  

Yeah.. appeal to authority... 500 years  OMG... you really are saying something here........ NOT.  You are just making up facts out of your ass.

The use of bitcoin for investment and speculation had two other bad consequences.  First, it lifted the price to 100 times what it should have been, given its current level of usage.  The price is floating in the air, high up, anchored to itself through the hopes of traders and holders.  It could crash from there at any moment.  No company in its right mind would want to hold it, even temporarily.  Imagine a manager accepting a payment of 1000 BTC today, and the price crashing tomorrow, before he can spend or sell those coins.  How could he explain that to the company owners? (You can find out there an audio of Overstock's CEO trying to explain something like that to the other shareholders; but AFAIK he is the majority holder, so he won't get fired for that...)

YES.... what if, what if...   You know better than that.  if you are using bitcoin as a payment system, then you have the option to cash out right away or to hold them for a specific cash out time. With anything new, there may be a learning curve concerning decisions regarding when to cash out, if cashing out is part of the plan.

Second, but tied to the first: bitcoin's use as instrument of speculative trade made its price extremely volatile.  Even in times of "stability", like the past 7 months, the price has changed by ±10% in a few hours, several times.  Volatility is bad for a currency: the user who buys BTC to pay for something will lose money if the BTC price drops between the two actions, and will not really win if it goes up -- because he will be left with a small amount of BTC that he may not find a good use for.

That is why a good cryptocurrency must be designed to NOT be a good investment.

Yes, if an asset is volatile, then that needs to be taken into account, but that volatility does NOT mean that it is a bad thing because, as I already mentioned, BTC is much more than a currency.    You again are attempting to frame facts in an incomplete way in order to engage in scare tactics....

All of these months in bitcoin, and you still have NOT learned how to be more comprehensive in your analysis rather than simplified and selective extrapolations?

his suggestion that Satoshi would agree...    Wat da fuck?

From what I have read, I am satisfied that  Satoshi intended bitcoin to be what he wrote in the whitepaper: a system for peer to peer payments through the internet that did not require a trusted third party.  He believed that the world needed such a thing, but no one knew how to build it, and thought that he had found a way.    That seems to have been his motivation to design the bitcoin protocol; and he then implemented it to see whether the idea worked out in practice.

But Satoshi was a computer scientist, not an economist.  He thought that it would be nice if the currency had no inflation.  For "everybody" knows that inflation is bad, right? I thought so too.

His he pleased about what bitcoin turned out to be?  Well, on one hand it is always satisfying to do something big, even if it is a big nuclear accident or the sinking of the Titanic.  But I doubt that he is happy about what his creature has become...

Your further explanation supports that you are engaged in a BIG ASS guessing game regarding what Satoshi thought or what he would think.  It does little to no good for you to engage in this kind of speculation to go back to "original intent" or to attempt to attribute the direction of bitcoin to the "founder," because in fact, Satoshi either removed himself or fell out of the bitcoin scene.... Accordingly, bitcoin became a dynamic phenomenon that is influenced by a variety of players (rather than by any one player).   in other words, bitcoin has become a sort of community asset, and there is some freedom for anyone to buy into it or to refrain from such.  Even though you are fairly informed about bitcoin, you seem to be someone who has knowingly chosen NOT to financially invest into bitcoin, but instead chosen to invest into denigrating bitcoin.... I'm fairly certain that some anti-bitcoin entities would be willing to pay you to continue in such supposedly voluntary and unpaid conduct.  So, are you being paid for all of the time that you spend in the various bitcoin forums?  You must be receiving some payments for your work and/or your publications and/or your attempts to build your reputation as some kind of anti-bitcoin "expert." 

Sorry to some of you for using the term "expert" in the same sentence in which I am referring to Stolfi.....   

Why so much agro and upset about Jorge's posts? He's not threatening you (or perhaps he is somehow?). He has a view and he expresses and articulates that view pretty well. I don't agree with much of what he says either but I appreciate that his posts are coherent, quite well written and free from personal attacks or vitriol. In fact, he's very gracious in his responses to many of you that get all so incensed that he's expressing the views that he is; and this is indicative that some of what he's saying has seriously hooked your innards and is tearing at you in some manner. That you're responding in such an affronted way says to me you're not 100% sure and his line of thought on this stuff causes internal conflict.

If you don't agree with his take on Bitcoin (and crypto in general), just point out calmly and unemotionally where his logic, assumptions or beliefs are flawed. I think it's very good to have someone like him putting the ideas up he does as it makes for interesting consideration of his views versus alternatives.

Isn't this what a thread like this is about?

[Hopalong]

Can you imagine a design of cryptocurrency that would be to your liking, or is the concept as a whole damned to failure in your mind?

Hopefully that negative interest would be enough to dissuade hoarders and speculators.  

Most of this forum think the inflation of fiat currencies is a bad thing and that bitcoin has solved a problem with its fixed supply. They dont understand that inflation is a very important tool to keep investments going.


Imagine your national currency without inflation. The money you have in your pocket would never loose value. Seems nice if you dont have a lot of money but what happen if you had a lot of money. You could just hoard the money and live of ot for the rest of your life. There would be no interest in investing to make more money since investing is a risk.

With todays inflating fiat there is no point in hoarding money. Your money supply loose value if you just hoard them. You have to get the money out there and work for you. Either by investing or putting them in a bank and let them invest for you.

A fixed supply economy like bitcoin would be the end of investing. Why invest if you can just hodl to increase your holdings.

Perhaps you didn't read up where I explained that "hoarding" is savings and it is absolutely essential for a healthy economy.  If there is no incentive to consume less than one produces, an entire economy's wealth is stagnant at best and consumed in one generation at worst.  We are currently watching this play out on a global scale.

It's laughable to claim that there would be no investing with a deflationary currency. The late nineteenth century in America saw prices fall almost everywhere and a massive increase in the standard of living. People would still spend a currency even if they knew it would go up in value forever because nobody lives forever. They just wouldn't spend it frivolously. That's a bad thing? We all need billboard-sized flat screen television sets and a new car every two years?

You must separate normal working people and rich people as i tried to do. Buying a new television is not investing. Building a sky skraper is investing.

Inflation gives those with a lot of money a push to get their money invested somewhere or it will loose value. A fixed supply coin like bitcoin is not good for investing but for holding. If we imagine a future with mainstream use of bitcoin it would be better to hold your bitcoin than to use them. The more you hold the more you earn because the value only goes up. Only stupid people would invest money they know would increase value into anything that might be risky. Thats why national banks will force inflation to the right level. To low inflation would ruin the economy since all investments stops. To high inflation is also bad since it makes people swap their money for something that will hold value and nobody invests.

The fixed supply of bitcoin is only good for speculation like this thread is about. Knowing what the supply is and what it will be in the future makes it easier to do the right moves when you trade.

[meyer lansky]

Not as effective without jumping ponies. But the subtle lack of suprise porn is nice. I'd say this thread is finally SFW again. FWIW




Edit: I guess I asked for it. Somehow..

newbies cant post pic anymore but that wont stop them him!

If you want SFW you might wanna put meyer lansky on ignore. He/she/it is about to turn into a beautiful butterfly.

Yeah; my thoughts exactly. Still; I find his personality amusing, so I'll just let him be for the time being...  

what were you and fatman insinuating?

[Elwar]

People would still spend a currency even if they knew it would go up in value forever because nobody lives forever. They just wouldn't spend it frivolously. That's a bad thing? We all need billboard-sized flat screen television sets and a new car every two years?

This.

The consumerism economy that cheap money has created is ridiculous. Let's waste as much of our planet's resources as we can so that we can turn them into something we use for 5 minutes then throw away.

Investing so that your money is working for you? This creates a large part of society that is just living off of money working for them. That is not productivity, that is a drain on society.

As someone who actually lives on Bitcoin and from what I have heard of others who are doing the same, we spend our money on things that matter and don't waste as much money on frivolous things. Personally I have found it very freeing to not care about "stuff" anymore. Everything I own can fit inside a backpack and suitcase (other than my very economical car). I see posts on Facebook of some "cool" product followed by tons of posts of "I want!". While I look at it, think it's kinda clever and have no care for acquiring it. I spend most of my money on living life. I travel to a new country at least once a month. Collecting experiences as opposed to things. Enjoying people instead of possessions.

I feel bad for my co-workers who all have 6 figure incomes who are always complaining about not having enough money, and credit card bills and all of this debt. While they drive high priced cars (with insane gas bills), constantly have packages being delivered with new goodies and expensive places to live.

[Ibian]

loose

Loose is what your sister is. The word you are looking for is lose. And to everyone who want inflation in their crypto, go make your own alt. There are sites for this, you can order them exactly how you want, no coding knowledge required. Show everyone how great your idea is and how popular it will be.

[Elwar]

Why so much agro and upset about Jorge's posts? He's not threatening you (or perhaps he is somehow?).

The threat is that central control of a currency relies on the force of the government to maintain a horrific currency that encourages a police state and more, bigger, wars.

[Hopalong]

People would still spend a currency even if they knew it would go up in value forever because nobody lives forever. They just wouldn't spend it frivolously. That's a bad thing? We all need billboard-sized flat screen television sets and a new car every two years?

This.

The consumerism economy that cheap money has created is ridiculous. Let's waste as much of our planet's resources as we can so that we can turn them into something we use for 5 minutes then throw away.

Investing so that your money is working for you? This creates a large part of society that is just living off of money working for them. That is not productivity, that is a drain on society.

As someone who actually lives on Bitcoin and from what I have heard of others who are doing the same, we spend our money on things that matter and don't waste as much money on frivolous things. Personally I have found it very freeing to not care about "stuff" anymore. Everything I own can fit inside a backpack and suitcase (other than my very economical car). I see posts on Facebook of some "cool" product followed by tons of posts of "I want!". While I look at it, think it's kinda clever and have no care for acquiring it. I spend most of my money on living life. I travel to a new country at least once a month. Collecting experiences as opposed to things. Enjoying people instead of possessions.

I feel bad for my co-workers who all have 6 figure incomes who are always complaining about not having enough money, and credit card bills and all of this debt. While they drive high priced cars (with insane gas bills), constantly have packages being delivered with new goodies and expensive places to live.

We share the view of this consumerism that is so popular now. I am like you and only buy what i need and never buy a gadget just because it could make me cool.

Investing is so much more than what you belive it to be. When i look out my window i see a fish farm. Someone has invested their money and created a work place for a lot of people producing food. Nothing is more important than food and those people are doing the most important work on the planet. No job is more important than producing food. Think about that when you see a farmer...

Without that first investments there would be no fish farm and no jobs and no food. Why would the guy who started the fish have done it if he could just sit back and earn money by just having them?

[Elwar]

Investing is so much more than what you belive it to be. When i look out my window i see a fish farm. Someone has invested their money and created a work place for a lot of people producing food. Nothing is more important than food and those people are doing the most important work on the planet. No job is more important than producing food. Think about that when you see a farmer...

Without that first investments there would be no fish farm and no jobs and no food. Why would the guy who started the fish have done it if he could just sit back and earn money by just having them?

I have also invested in a business that I believe in. About $10k worth of bitcoins that could or could not have returned me more as a bitcoin investment but will be worth so much more if the business takes off.

So much more for the Bitcoin community too

[Fatman3001]

Why so much agro and upset about Jorge's posts? He's not threatening you (or perhaps he is somehow?). He has a view and he expresses and articulates that view pretty well. I don't agree with much of what he says either but I appreciate that his posts are coherent, quite well written and free from personal attacks or vitriol. In fact, he's very gracious in his responses to many of you that get all so incensed that he's expressing the views that he is; and this is indicative that some of what he's saying has seriously hooked your innards and is tearing at you in some manner. That you're responding in such an affronted way says to me you're not 100% sure and his line of thought on this stuff causes internal conflict.

If you don't agree with his take on Bitcoin (and crypto in general), just point out calmly and unemotionally where his logic, assumptions or beliefs are flawed. I think it's very good to have someone like him putting the ideas up he does as it makes for interesting consideration of his views versus alternatives.

Isn't this what a thread like this is about?

Your gracious friend has been trolling this forum for years now. I agree that there is no need to get all fired up about it, but to "point out calmly and unemotionally where his logic, assumptions or beliefs are flawed" is even more of a waste.

[Fatman3001]

Not as effective without jumping ponies. But the subtle lack of suprise porn is nice. I'd say this thread is finally SFW again. FWIW




Edit: I guess I asked for it. Somehow..

newbies cant post pic anymore but that wont stop them him!

If you want SFW you might wanna put meyer lansky on ignore. He/she/it is about to turn into a beautiful butterfly.

Yeah; my thoughts exactly. Still; I find his personality amusing, so I'll just let him be for the time being...  

what are you and fatman insinuating?

It was 9/11. We were jumpy.

[ChartBuddy]

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Explanation

[RenegadeMan]

Why so much agro and upset about Jorge's posts? He's not threatening you (or perhaps he is somehow?). He has a view and he expresses and articulates that view pretty well. I don't agree with much of what he says either but I appreciate that his posts are coherent, quite well written and free from personal attacks or vitriol. In fact, he's very gracious in his responses to many of you that get all so incensed that he's expressing the views that he is; and this is indicative that some of what he's saying has seriously hooked your innards and is tearing at you in some manner. That you're responding in such an affronted way says to me you're not 100% sure and his line of thought on this stuff causes internal conflict.

If you don't agree with his take on Bitcoin (and crypto in general), just point out calmly and unemotionally where his logic, assumptions or beliefs are flawed. I think it's very good to have someone like him putting the ideas up he does as it makes for interesting consideration of his views versus alternatives.

Isn't this what a thread like this is about?

Your gracious friend has been trolling this forum for years now. I agree that there is no need to get all fired up about it, but to "point out calmly and unemotionally where his logic, assumptions or beliefs are flawed" is even more of a waste.

He has some ideas that (I think) are the very antithesis of what crypto is all about. Suggesting that there'll inevitably have to be a rethink on the 21 million cap and that an increase will eventually happen is the slippery slope to Bitcoin being just another manipulated disaster like we're seeing with almost all fiat currencies (and, obviously to get it to be manipulatable like that, will require some dramatic action and reallocation of mining resources away from the current Bitcoin community). In fact he basically seems to have a line of thought that takes the current monetary system's "features" and attributes and retrospectively applies them to Bitcoin like "it's just how money works and if Bitcoin doesn't hold these properties it will fail". That I find to be backward thinking as it's failing to see the paradigm of how central bankers and Wall Street "run" the monetary system is THE problem and to use it as a framework of sorts for how crypto needs to operate is everything crypto isn't and should never be (but any conversation about 'money' is by nature controversial and complex).

My point though is he appears to have many people quite riled up and that's unfortunate. His points simply need to be deconstructed and the flaws pointed out. But if it's a waste of time doing that (and I haven't been in this thread for more than a few months) then probably best to just let him post and not respond.

Either way I don't find his posts to be trollish in their nature (but maybe his "graciousness" is hiding a whole other agenda I'm not aware of) and I appreciate he's expressing his view and that's perfectly okay.

[pleaseexplainagain]

Why so much agro and upset about Jorge's posts? He's not threatening you (or perhaps he is somehow?). He has a view and he expresses and articulates that view pretty well. I don't agree with much of what he says either but I appreciate that his posts are coherent, quite well written and free from personal attacks or vitriol. In fact, he's very gracious in his responses to many of you that get all so incensed that he's expressing the views that he is; and this is indicative that some of what he's saying has seriously hooked your innards and is tearing at you in some manner. That you're responding in such an affronted way says to me you're not 100% sure and his line of thought on this stuff causes internal conflict.

If you don't agree with his take on Bitcoin (and crypto in general), just point out calmly and unemotionally where his logic, assumptions or beliefs are flawed. I think it's very good to have someone like him putting the ideas up he does as it makes for interesting consideration of his views versus alternatives.

Isn't this what a thread like this is about?

Your gracious friend has been trolling this forum for years now. I agree that there is no need to get all fired up about it, but to "point out calmly and unemotionally where his logic, assumptions or beliefs are flawed" is even more of a waste.

agree Jorge's posts are coherent etc even though I do not always agree with what he has said. But both he and those opposing his views about the benefits or otherwise of inflation/deflation etc seem to talking about some "stable' position in the future that I am not sure might ever come to pass.

I see the store of wealth/intrinsic value of bitcoin at present being between $2 -$40 (if it exists at all). the rest is heavy and speculation.

So the 'working person' is not going to buy bitcoin as though it may be deflationary they might lose (at $250 per coin now) over $200 before that benefit kicks in. That is not a good deal

For the rich that build skyscrapers they might buy a few bitcoins in case it really does go up in price 2-3 times per annum on average across 5-10 years but most of their money will go into other risky investments where there has been some history of good gains eg building retirement villages. Bitcoin is too unpredictable to put lots of money into it  at present.

With gold it has moved about 5% over 5 years. That to me is a store of wealth. Bitcoin is years away from that sort of "stable" position.