Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Arriemoller]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Not so easy or simple, unfortunately. Have you heard of the Exit Tax? Capital gains are realized for high net worth individuals upon renouncing.

You still owe cap gains if you don't renounce and just expat. Unless you plan on just hiding and never setting foot in US again nor using any international banks cooperating with FinCen rules.

Puerto Rico offers tax free cap gains for residents, but you still owe on any gains realized up to the date you become a resident.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/27/renounce-u-s-heres-how-irs-computes-exit-tax/#45c8627287d4

No, I actually haven't heard of the exit tax. It does make sense to some degree, or at least it would if taxes were legitimate in the first place. But regardless of whether or not you'd choose to pay what you "owe" before renouncing, it still doesn't sound like anyone who expects any significant profits should be staying in the US any longer than absolutely necessary for whatever individual circumstances.

Agreed. However, I'm suspecting you're not married or have many close family relations in the US? The moment I brought up renouncing to my wife, and that she would need to apply for visas to visit family, friends, etc., well... you can imagine the response. Although she's warming up to it proportionally to crypto value.

Which begs the question, how much is US citizenship worth? A US passport gets you in a lot of places without visas or trouble. Attaining citizenship in another country takes time and often a good deal of (traceable, taxable) fiat. Although being stateless is an option, it's not recommended for long. You have no rights, anywhere.

I think you can buy New Zealand citizenship and that will get you anywhere US citizenship will.  You can go buy mountain in Queenstown with all the hedge fund billionaires.

New Zealand is a very nice place to live. Come on down.
https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/investor-visa

What's the weather like in NZ?

Depends on where you  live. Wellington is windy and gets a lot of rain, although the city is beautiful. I spent many years working in Wellington and I prefer it over Auckland. Auckland is nice but it has gotten expensive and crowded. Wine country of Hawkes Bay is fantastic.( Napier and Hastings) Great weather, many wineries, great food, fantastic bike riding.

The south island is extremely beautiful. I will be spending some more time there next year. So many great places. I want to go to Lake Tekapo. It is one of our dark sky reserves for seeing the night sky.


 

Thanks, I might go for a visit at least, but a little worried about seismic activity.

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[nikauforest]

Yeah, every trade is a taxable event to US persons. Whether that is buying coffee or litecoin. It is property according to the IRS.

Even if you thought you could get away with the like kind exchange rule, you still have to report every trade individually on the exemption form.

If it were classified as a stock, you could just report net gains and losses but not so with property.

They have made compliance nearly impossible so unless someone passes a law to exempt transactions prior to a certain date, a lot of people are going to owe back taxes and penalties if not jail time.

Simple solution: Become an expat.

Not so easy or simple, unfortunately. Have you heard of the Exit Tax? Capital gains are realized for high net worth individuals upon renouncing.

You still owe cap gains if you don't renounce and just expat. Unless you plan on just hiding and never setting foot in US again nor using any international banks cooperating with FinCen rules.

Puerto Rico offers tax free cap gains for residents, but you still owe on any gains realized up to the date you become a resident.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/27/renounce-u-s-heres-how-irs-computes-exit-tax/#45c8627287d4

No, I actually haven't heard of the exit tax. It does make sense to some degree, or at least it would if taxes were legitimate in the first place. But regardless of whether or not you'd choose to pay what you "owe" before renouncing, it still doesn't sound like anyone who expects any significant profits should be staying in the US any longer than absolutely necessary for whatever individual circumstances.

Agreed. However, I'm suspecting you're not married or have many close family relations in the US? The moment I brought up renouncing to my wife, and that she would need to apply for visas to visit family, friends, etc., well... you can imagine the response. Although she's warming up to it proportionally to crypto value.

Which begs the question, how much is US citizenship worth? A US passport gets you in a lot of places without visas or trouble. Attaining citizenship in another country takes time and often a good deal of (traceable, taxable) fiat. Although being stateless is an option, it's not recommended for long. You have no rights, anywhere.

I think you can buy New Zealand citizenship and that will get you anywhere US citizenship will.  You can go buy mountain in Queenstown with all the hedge fund billionaires.

New Zealand is a very nice place to live. Come on down.
https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/investor-visa

What's the weather like in NZ?

Depends on where you  live. Wellington is windy and gets a lot of rain, although the city is beautiful. I spent many years working in Wellington and I prefer it over Auckland. Auckland is nice but it has gotten expensive and crowded. Wine country of Hawkes Bay is fantastic.( Napier and Hastings) Great weather, many wineries, great food, fantastic bike riding.

The south island is extremely beautiful. I will be spending some more time there next year. So many great places. I want to go to Lake Tekapo. It is one of our dark sky reserves for seeing the night sky.


 

Thanks, I might go for a visit at least, but a little worried about seismic activity.

Well, we definitely have seismic activity here. Earthquakes and volcanoes.....

[RewFrew]

Bitcoin Segwit2x hard fork Scheduled for December ‎‎28 2017 after calling off a month ago.

Source: http://b2x-segwit.io

[jojo69]

I think we have some resistance up around 14400...I for one would be happy to see us break it

[smartcomet]

BTC closed the week at 14158 (Bitstamp)
good consolidation.

[Wilhelm]

I think we have some resistance up around 14400...I for one would be happy to see us break it

Triangle formation. Hopefully we will break out but you are right, there is a barrier between 14200 and 14800.

For now we will ping pong between 12800 and 14200. Tomorrow we will arrive at the breakout point at approx 13600 and see what happens

[Peter R]

That’s right.

Just introduce 10GB blocks and call it a night. Problem solved.

Let's just hope people who can actually run a node don't get the bright idea to charge subscription fees to let your SPV wallet connect to them.

This is inevitable.  It cost time and money to run a node which serves headers and Merke-branch proofs to SPV clients.  Eventually, businesses will charge for this service, perhaps using payment channels.  I'd suspect the cost would be well under $1 per month, as it would be a high-competition / low-margin type business.

An income stream for non-mining nodes would be a positive development, as it means we're not relying on altruism.  Do you disagree?

[strawbs]

Merry Christmas to all the hodlers out there.  We once said our time will come, well this year it did. Some of you are dicks, some of you are awesome - you know who you are.  Have a great time out there y'all.

[bones261]

That’s right.

Just introduce 10GB blocks and call it a night. Problem solved.

Let's just hope people who can actually run a node don't get the bright idea to charge subscription fees to let your SPV wallet connect to them.

This is inevitable.  It cost time and money to run a node which serves headers and Merke-branch proofs to SPV clients.  Eventually, businesses will charge for this service, perhaps using payment channels.  I'd suspect the cost would be well under $1 per month, as it would be a high-competition / low-margin type business.

An income stream for non-mining nodes would be a positive development, as it means we're not relying on altruism.  Do you disagree?

I thought this was supposed to be P2P trustless electronic cash. Not connect to some hub and pay additional fees. However, Mr Wright seems to think that if I run a node, and not mining, that I'm just a fat wallet wasting network resources. Such plebs as us should just connect via SPV and pay fees. Wow, Mr Wright, that's really going to help the unbanked of Africa.  

[realr0ach]

That’s right.

Just introduce 10GB blocks and call it a night. Problem solved.

Let's just hope people who can actually run a node don't get the bright idea to charge subscription fees to let your SPV wallet connect to them.

This is inevitable.  It cost time and money to run a node which serves headers and Merke-branch proofs to SPV clients.  Eventually, businesses will charge for this service, perhaps using payment channels.  I'd suspect the cost would be well under $1 per month, as it would be a high-competition / low-margin type business.

An income stream for non-mining nodes would be a positive development, as it means we're not relying on altruism.  Do you disagree?

You're kinda admitting bitcoin is a system built on multiple levels of usury when that's *SUPPOSEDLY* something it defeats.  If I "own" a bitcoin, I don't really own it, I'm required to pay a ransom/usury fee to a miner if I want to do anything with it (unlike physical silver or gold).  Now you're talking about adding even MORE additional usury levels on top of that.  Why would anyone use some *permissioned*, multiple levels of usury system like this when they can use a usury-free, permissionless system like physical silver and gold?

[Enjel]

PM shilling

Do you really believe the price of bitcoin hit $20k while the "evil bankers" are against it?  It would have been made illegal WAAAAY before that happened if they were actually trying to stop it.  We all know the only thing that keeps bitcoin afloat is it's ability to be converted to fiat.  Cut off the fiat conversion and this shit instantly implodes.  So why has it not happened?  Why?  They want you to buy this centralized govt tracking system instead of metals.

Many big bankers are against Bitcoin. Stiglitz wants it to be illegal.

However, they have an opportunity to manipulate the price for profit, and the IRS (in the USA of course) has an opportunity to extract capital gains taxes from people.

They have plenty of incentive to allow Bitcoin and others to continue. But the fact is, bankers in general do NOT want Bitcoin to succeed in the long run, because it would destabilize the current system.

In addition, unless you are an illegal immigrant, the government already knows pretty much everything about you. They are already tracking and surveilling you in many ways.

[gentlemand]

Interesting wee thread about that Dragon miner thing unveiled with some fanfare a while back - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2443327.0

It's still looking distinctly vapoury at present.

[Fakhoury]

Just came to say Hi and to share something euphoric about the future

What the hell happened to you, since about May-ish?

I have read many speculations about you no longer being with us?

Another extreme dear brother showing up, my dear JJG.

Have been drowning into the crypto twitter ocean and IRL issues.

But finally back and gave our bullish thread a push 

I've missed you all brother, hopefully I won't fade away again 

EXACTAMENTE!!!

Even though each of us have our differing styles, your style has been missed - yet it seems a bit extreme, too, of you, to post 2-10 bullish media articles per day for several months (and spoil many of us), and then completely disaparecer for 6 months -ish.

In any event, I am glad to see you back, and I look forward to posts and your perspective.

O..k..  One other point that I would like to make is that I had frequently asserted that you were much more bullish than me regarding short term BTC price performance - especially if we look back to our interactive posts in the late 2015 time frame and even the ones in the mid-to-late 2016 time frame.  So, it seems that you were much closer in your assessment than me, because current BTC prices are running about 3x to 4x higher than my most likely bullish assessments of those times.

I confess my brother, I'm an extremist.

I'm not a moderate person and an insane risk taker, so let it be whatever it meant to be.

I did you miss you a lot my dear brother and missed our talks a lot and here they are back again

My new targets are as follows, and you are free to call me an insane/crazy person, I know I'm mentally mad :

2018 will end at $100,000
2020 will end at $1,000,000

We are just warming up and we ain't seen anything yet, wait to witness 2018, it's will be a mind-blowing year.

I am going to call you insane/crazy, perhaps with a couple of conditions.  First condition:  What you are saying does not seem to be out of the range of contemplation - however, each of those numbers under those time lines seem like  long shots - however, if the first one is met, then the second one would become more probable.  Second condition:  I hope that you are careful in terms of your own investment - because without revealing details, it seems to me that you should have a lot of value right now, whether you hold that value in crypto or fiat or alts or some combination, so in that regard, I hope that you are hedging what I perceive to be (and you seem to admit) your extreme thoughts.  hahahaha.. you and MacAfee...   I just realized ---- John, is that you?   

Well, what I've figured from living on this planet for 27 years that all of my life is based on "bets" and not a normal bets, it's a "take-all-lose-all" bets as I've a major issue in my personality called "Perfection!!!!"

Regarding cryptocurriences, I guess I've said it before, I'm "all-in".

So let it be what is was destinated to be, I'm here for the long haul and for the perfect me.

Actually I din't see those number long shots.

These year we did nearly a 20x, it we make another 20x, we will end 2018 at $400,000, so can't end at $100,000 ?

2018 will the start of the real fireworks.

[JayJuanGee]

Just found a stack of paper wallets from 2015. I was giving away 0.05 Bitcoi in each and these were the leftovers. It’s a nice find I didn’t know I had it....

Yep.   All of a sudden scrap amounts become real money.

It is kind of bullshit, though, regarding how some of these people treat their gifts, and I have a few war stories regarding that too.

My friend recently contacted me, and told me that he was looking for his son's $40 bitcoin transaction that I had sent for a graduation gift.

Mind you I sent $40 to the son and $10 to the dad, in order that they could, perhaps, learn together about bitcoin.  The price was around $380 at the time... So, a couple of times a year, I would remind him about bitcoin and ask him if he had retrieved the bitcoin... did it through Circle....  He said, yeah, yeah, yeah, he still has access to the e-mail account, and just a few weeks ago when he contacted me, he asked me if I could recover the coins because he said that he did not have access to the e-mail accounts.  The son's value was something like $1,740 and the dads value was something like $440.  Crazy.  I think that they lost everything, unless they can regain access to their earlier e-mails, perhaps there is a way... I think that it was a private domain e-mail that their family administrator allowed the domain to expire.

 

hahahahahahaha...

I like that one.

[Peter R]

That’s right.

Just introduce 10GB blocks and call it a night. Problem solved.

Let's just hope people who can actually run a node don't get the bright idea to charge subscription fees to let your SPV wallet connect to them.

This is inevitable.  It cost time and money to run a node which serves headers and Merke-branch proofs to SPV clients.  Eventually, businesses will charge for this service, perhaps using payment channels.  I'd suspect the cost would be well under $1 per month, as it would be a high-competition / low-margin type business.

An income stream for non-mining nodes would be a positive development, as it means we're not relying on altruism.  Do you disagree?

I thought this was supposed to be P2P trustless electronic cash. Not connect to some hub and pay additional fees. However, Mr Wright seems to think that if I run a node, and not mining, that I'm just a fat wallet wasting network resources. Such plebs as us should just connect via SPV and pay fees. Wow, Mr Wright, that's really going to help the unbanked of Africa.  

I'd expect there will always be some form or "free service" available (both for Merkle-branch proofs and for transaction confirmations).  But I suspect timely-confirmations will cost around a penny and that timely SPV proofs will cost several-orders of magnitudes less.

[Peter R]

That’s right.

Just introduce 10GB blocks and call it a night. Problem solved.

Let's just hope people who can actually run a node don't get the bright idea to charge subscription fees to let your SPV wallet connect to them.

This is inevitable.  It cost time and money to run a node which serves headers and Merke-branch proofs to SPV clients.  Eventually, businesses will charge for this service, perhaps using payment channels.  I'd suspect the cost would be well under $1 per month, as it would be a high-competition / low-margin type business.

An income stream for non-mining nodes would be a positive development, as it means we're not relying on altruism.  Do you disagree?

You're kinda admitting bitcoin is a system built on multiple levels of usury when that's *SUPPOSEDLY* something it defeats.  If I "own" a bitcoin, I don't really own it, I'm required to pay a ransom/usury fee to a miner if I want to do anything with it (unlike physical silver or gold).  Now you're talking about adding even MORE additional usury levels on top of that.  Why would anyone use some *permissioned*, multiple levels of usury system like this when they can use a usury-free, permissionless system like physical silver and gold?

BTC as "digital gold" for "holding" is pretty pointless in my opinion, and I suspect it will collapse if it cannot fix the extremely high fees.

[sirazimuth]

<nonsense>

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=532.msg6306#msg6306

Satoshi would not have wasted his time answering such a question if it was not in his original mind frame.

Great quote from that link too "If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry."

I mean that link alone says more than anything I could or would ever need to say... something needs to change to regain market confidence in my opinion.

LOL good one!

Or fucking Poloniex  

I think that's a woman.

Nahh..its just one of those "either or's" that seem to be coming outta the woodwork these days. No worries...just dont raise an eyebrow
or anything like that. Its not polite....

[bones261]

I thought this was supposed to be P2P trustless electronic cash. Not connect to some hub and pay additional fees. However, Mr Wright seems to think that if I run a node, and not mining, that I'm just a fat wallet wasting network resources. Such plebs as us should just connect via SPV and pay fees. Wow, Mr Wright, that's really going to help the unbanked of Africa.  

I'd expect there will always be some form or "free service" available (both for Merkle-branch proofs and for transaction confirmations).  But I suspect timely-confirmations will cost around a penny and that timely SPV proofs will cost several-orders of magnitudes less.

You have too much faith in many of these pool operators, who would be running the mining and the nodes. You really think they are going to charge pennies when they can command dollars?

[Makka]

Is there still a chance bitcoin breaks ath before the new year? Is CME, CBOE and other old financial company traders trying to kill bitcoin's growth slowly?

[sirazimuth]

I thought this was supposed to be P2P trustless electronic cash. Not connect to some hub and pay additional fees. However, Mr Wright seems to think that if I run a node, and not mining, that I'm just a fat wallet wasting network resources. Such plebs as us should just connect via SPV and pay fees. Wow, Mr Wright, that's really going to help the unbanked of Africa.  

I'd expect there will always be some form or "free service" available (both for Merkle-branch proofs and for transaction confirmations).  But I suspect timely-confirmations will cost around a penny and that timely SPV proofs will cost several-orders of magnitudes less.

You have too much faith in many of these pool operators, who would be running the mining and the nodes. You really think they are going to charge pennies when they can command dollars?

If there was a prize for most used gif meme on this thread, that one wins ..hands down ( repeat gif post)