Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[meanig]

China may have realized that it cannot stifle bitcoin.. and china has a mixed set of motives including a desire to have some kind of investment vehicle separate from the dollar... .. so China is likely torn about bitcoin and about whether they like it or hate it... maybe they are frienemies with bitcoin?

From what Iknow, Chinese residents cannot pay for goods or services using bitcoin; banks and other financial institutions cannot deal with bitcoin; bitcoins cannot be sold by e-commerce sites; and e-payment services cannot be used to pay for bitcoin.   So what is left?

I believe there are other cointries which have taken similar measures; Russia and India, perhaps? (A thread was started in this forum to build a list the legal status of bitcoin in each coutry, but it never got beyond the first draft.)  Some countries (like the US)  have not banned crypto-coins explicitly, but their existing regulations alerady prevent some of those uses. 

If crypto currencies will only be used for clandestine private commerce between peers, under risk of legal penalties who don't care about regulation, they will have failed succeeded in their goal.

FTFY

[JayJuanGee]

China may have realized that it cannot stifle bitcoin.. and china has a mixed set of motives including a desire to have some kind of investment vehicle separate from the dollar... .. so China is likely torn about bitcoin and about whether they like it or hate it... maybe they are frienemies with bitcoin?

From what Iknow, Chinese residents cannot pay for goods or services using bitcoin; banks and other financial institutions cannot deal with bitcoin; bitcoins cannot be sold by e-commerce sites; and e-payment services cannot be used to pay for bitcoin.   So what is left?  

Lots of things are left - including:  Storage of value, exportation of capital from country and speculation.  Surely, those other aspects would be helpful for bitcoin in china, but they are NOT going to kill bitcoin in china.  Also, do you really believe that chinese people are good at following rules?  Surely, they can be good at following some rules, but they are also good at finding work arounds.  I put my money on the work arounds.

I believe there are other cointries which have taken similar measures; Russia and India, perhaps? (A thread was started in this forum to build a list the legal status of bitcoin in each coutry, but it never got beyond the first draft.)  Some countries (like the US)  have not banned crypto-coins explicitly, but their existing regulations alerady prevent some of those uses.  

If crypto currencies will only be used for clandestine commerce between peers, under risk of legal penalties, they will have failed in their goal.

bitcoin is likely to be used whether with the cooperation of governments or NOT.  

I agree with you that bitcoin could become very marginalized if there were outright and extensive attacks - however, there may also be backlash and wider scoff law type issues.. such as drug trafficking and porn that are illegal but happen despite laws.

Yes, if there was extensive attack then maybe bitcoin could return to $10 or less per BTC.... the reduction of value does NOT automatically imply that BTC has been stifled to death... but just more underground in its uses.

[Richy_T]

I'm looking for better definition on where you stand.

Alright, let's take this further: the argument is that we would support the poor through voluntary charity, yes? Now let's say after 10 years, charity turns out to be woefully inadequate. Let's assume that -- while the world has not devolved into chaos and anarchy as a result of a lack of government -- that some are suffering because not everything went as planned. There's slums with no police protection because everyone that lives in the neighborhood can't afford it. How do we approach that? Are some things up for socialization, or is it all strictly no go, no budge?

Sure, the poor ain't doing so hot right now, but in order for the change to be worth it, it's not enough to be different. It's got to be better, and noticeably so. The problem is better is subjective, and not everyone will agree on, let alone know, what better really is.

Oh, I'm fairly happy to take things piecemeal. If things don't appear to be working, back off and adjust approach. Obviously, I believe things would not tend to end up that way (though government action has created a huge underclass that would have to be accounted for) but I'm not one for big schemes that have to be implemented in one fell swoop (just look at Obamacare for how that kind of thing goes).

Basically I see it like a big game of Jenga. There are some pieces which can be taken easily and others which require the removal of other pieces before they can be taken without collapsing the whole tower. Fortunately, almost every step that is taken to improve freedom should make the next one easier.

[JayJuanGee]

John steward mill said something like that, and that was in the 1800s. 

Whats this supposed to imply? That morality is supposed to change with time or something?

We may still cite John Steward Mill and others even though the ideas have been around a while, and maybe there was NO reference to John Steward Mill in the original post.   

I do believe that some things that were said in the 1800s may NOT apply very well in the modern world due to population growth and technological applications that may NOT fit very well into some of the current paradigms.  I was quite a fan of JS Mill during some parts of my life, but in recent times, I have been giving more weight to concerns and needs of community b/c I am of the opinion that some of the JS Mill thinking may NOT apply very well to some social responsibility concepts... there needs to be some balance.. ... yet I am NOT in any position to assert exactly where that balance line should be drawn.. that would be a product of the community, ultimately.. and surely I would think that any society would like to have balances that allow for personal liberty within a community framework, if possible.

[Richy_T]

I am NOT sure how my comments attribute me to subscribing to embracing gang violence.   I do admit, however, at at least one point, I suggested that to me it seems that some people are going to need to be forced to contribute to the community b/c if they were left on their own, they would NOT contribute.  I am NOT locked into this thinking, but it seems that some posters in this discussion have suggested that they do NOT want to pay anything,.

There is a world of difference between not wanting to pay and not wanting to be forced to pay.

I have some difficulties imagining a community in which either all or some people do NOT pay anything into the community.  

Really? I must vacation on your planet sometime. It sounds fascinating.

[Hypnoise]

China may have realized that it cannot stifle bitcoin.. and china has a mixed set of motives including a desire to have some kind of investment vehicle separate from the dollar... .. so China is likely torn about bitcoin and about whether they like it or hate it... maybe they are frienemies with bitcoin?

From what Iknow, Chinese residents cannot pay for goods or services using bitcoin; banks and other financial institutions cannot deal with bitcoin; bitcoins cannot be sold by e-commerce sites; and e-payment services cannot be used to pay for bitcoin.   So what is left?

I believe there are other cointries which have taken similar measures; Russia and India, perhaps? (A thread was started in this forum to build a list the legal status of bitcoin in each coutry, but it never got beyond the first draft.)  Some countries (like the US)  have not banned crypto-coins explicitly, but their existing regulations alerady prevent some of those uses. 

If crypto currencies will only be used for clandestine private commerce between peers, under risk of legal penalties who don't care about regulation, they will have failed succeeded in their goal.

FTFY

Chinese corrupted officers will push Bitcoin price up 1000 times

http://www.bit-sky.com/index.php/english/370-chinese-corrupted-officers-will-push-bitcoin-price-up-1000-times

[PoolMinor]

[aminorex]

If crypto currencies will only be used for clandestine commerce between peers, under risk of legal penalties, they will have failed in their goal.

I use them at the newsstand by my office building in midtown Manhattan, to buy chewing gum and newspapers.  I use them to make charitable donations to a school in Chad and another in Kyrgyzstan.  I use them to pay rent on my apartment on the UES.  Eventually I should be able to replace most of my uses of fiat with uses of BTC.  I will generally shop at Overstock or TigerDirect when possible, avoiding Amazon until they take bitcoin.  For now, I still spend a lot on airlines, and generally use AmEx in restaurants, and still pay utilities with checks.  The experiment is working about as well as could reasonably be expected, for me.  Continued success seems probable.  A Bitcoin debit card would be huge for me.

[Richy_T]

From what Iknow, Chinese residents cannot pay for goods or services using bitcoin; banks and other financial institutions cannot deal with bitcoin; bitcoins cannot be sold by e-commerce sites; and e-payment services cannot be used to pay for bitcoin.   So what is left?

I believe there are other cointries which have taken similar measures; Russia and India, perhaps? (A thread was started in this forum to build a list the legal status of bitcoin in each coutry, but it never got beyond the first draft.)  Some countries (like the US)  have not banned crypto-coins explicitly, but their existing regulations alerady prevent some of those uses. 

If crypto currencies will only be used for clandestine commerce between peers, under risk of legal penalties, they will have failed in their goal.

The dollar was banned in the USSR (and a few other states) but was still quite popular (there) by my understanding.

[bassclef]

John steward mill said something like that, and that was in the 1800s. 

Whats this supposed to imply? That morality is supposed to change with time or something?

We may still cite John Steward Mill and others even though the ideas have been around a while, and maybe there was NO reference to John Steward Mill in the original post.   

I do believe that some things that were said in the 1800s may NOT apply very well in the modern world due to population growth and technological applications that may NOT fit very well into some of the current paradigms.  I was quite a fan of JS Mill during some parts of my life, but in recent times, I have been giving more weight to concerns and needs of community b/c I am of the opinion that some of the JS Mill thinking may NOT apply very well to some social responsibility concepts... there needs to be some balance.. ... yet I am NOT in any position to assert exactly where that balance line should be drawn.. that would be a product of the community, ultimately.. and surely I would think that any society would like to have balances that allow for personal liberty within a community framework, if possible.

JayJuan, check out this video. It pretty much sums things up.

http://youtu.be/muHg86Mys7I

[aminorex]

The dollar was banned in the USSR (and a few other states) but was still quite popular (there) by my understanding.

Trading FX in China is generally illegal still.  I would expect in DPRK, Laos as well, but have no direct knowledge.  You know, those great bastions of human dignity.

[Threebits]

China may have realized that it cannot stifle bitcoin.. and china has a mixed set of motives including a desire to have some kind of investment vehicle separate from the dollar... .. so China is likely torn about bitcoin and about whether they like it or hate it... maybe they are frienemies with bitcoin?

From what Iknow, Chinese residents cannot pay for goods or services using bitcoin; banks and other financial institutions cannot deal with bitcoin; bitcoins cannot be sold by e-commerce sites; and e-payment services cannot be used to pay for bitcoin.   So what is left?

I believe there are other cointries which have taken similar measures; Russia and India, perhaps? (A thread was started in this forum to build a list the legal status of bitcoin in each coutry, but it never got beyond the first draft.)  Some countries (like the US)  have not banned crypto-coins explicitly, but their existing regulations alerady prevent some of those uses. 

If crypto currencies will only be used for clandestine commerce between peers, under risk of legal penalties, they will have failed in their goal.

I don't see anything left. Things left are all self contradictory.

For example, Cryptocurrency is claimed by China as commodity, not currency. But how can one get that commodity besides mining? By regulation, All banks or payment processors are forbidden to link with exchanges. This means one just can not buy bitcoin on an exchange, as he can't credit his fiat into an exchange in an allowed way.

This results in a funny situation. Exchanges, banks and traders are all doing openly, but not allowed by government. Do I understand correctly.

My question is, why the Chinese government banned Cryptocurrency but allows everything going?

[seleme]

Bitstamp withdrawals bit slow

[aminorex]

My question is, why the Chinese government banned Cryptocurrency but allows everything going?

For the same reason most of the laws in the U.S. exist:  To keep everyone in a constant state of fear and submission.  If you step out of line, there are probably a dozen felony charges that can be laid against you at any time.

[BubbaGumpShrimpinBoatCapn]

Is now one of those moments i will be kicking myself later if i dont buy?

[DougTanner]

2.5 K buy on Bistamp! 

[fcmatt]

Is now one of those moments i will be kicking myself later if i dont buy?

I doubt it. Seems like big buys are moving the market up. not very organic growth. the buyers probably want to see if they can get the lemmings to join in then hammer it down come friday/sat. rinse repeat.

[BitChick]

Isn't it about time for a rally?  It has been a few months.  I would like to think I am a fairly patient person but I have things I want to spend some money on.  C'mon Bitcoin.  Be the "Little Engine that Could."  Let's get the choo choo started.  If you close your eyes and say, "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can"  perhaps we can get this going! 

I posted this yesterday morning.  I think it worked.  

[JorgeStolfi]

From what Iknow, Chinese residents cannot pay for goods or services using bitcoin; banks and other financial institutions cannot deal with bitcoin; bitcoins cannot be sold by e-commerce sites; and e-payment services cannot be used to pay for bitcoin.   So what is left?

Lots of things are left - including:  Storage of value, exportation of capital from country and speculation.

Sorry to repeat, but they cannot "export capital" with bitcoin.

When a Chinese national buys bitcoin with Yuan from other Chinese, transfers the bitcoins to another exchange outside China, and sells them there for dollars,  the net result is that the Chinese national got some dollars from non-Chinese people. All the Yuan remained in China.  The PBoC sees nothing wrong in that, quite the opposite.

That is different from when Chinese citizens exchanges Yuan for dollars at a foreign bank, in China or outside it, since in thsi case the bank effectively becomes owner of some of China's real wealth.

As for store of value, there are zillions of options that are better than bitcoin.

The only substantial thing left is speculation.  I wonder how many people are involved in that.  My guess is less than 10,000, which would be less than 0.001% of the population...

[bassclef]

Is now one of those moments i will be kicking myself later if i dont buy?

No, a bit more consolidation left to go imho. $635, $625 or $615 would be good buy targets, in decreasing orders of likelihood. If the pennant breaks down we could go sub $600 for awhile, although that is less likely.