Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Mr.right85]

JUST IN: Bitcoin miners have borrowed  $4B against their equipment - Bloomberg 😳

Bitcoin will get to $250K “by late 2022 or early 2023" says Tim Draper.

Source:https://twitter.com/BTC_Archive/status/1540723317790937090

I see this and I wonder,

What happened to the "Do not borrow to invest idea or principle"
Perhaps it's the trick on how they stay ahead?

But wait, they might have means to make up for any unexpected lose.
In the end, don't just jump in on a plan when you don't know the plan B!!!

Late 2025

This tells you, bitcoin is best for long term investment. You've got to be cultured enough to exercise years of patience and crypto is not some get rich, escape from poverty scheme. This idea gets you mixed up with pump and dump altcoins. Be patient wth bitcoin!!!

[1714649302]

1714649302

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out - parts]

Do you know the expression:  "parts is parts"?

 

Actually, I should not leave any curious cats hanging in terms of the actual reference in this one, because it is quite humorous, even though the substantive claims of the commercial are factually wrong and the overall commercial is attempting to sell process/fast foods as if processed food were real food.. but anyhow click on the link to experience 30 seconds of humor without necessarily buying into the commercial aspect of it that ended up being a lie.. but at the same time did have commercial success in terms of causing folks to match the expression "parts is parts" with a certain fast food chain.


Regarding your overall post D_W.. Wow.. lots of good points/"parts"..  

I doubt that any of us can keep up with so many things, and so surely sometimes there can be value in threads like this one, in which we are able to see some information that might be out there and attempt to explore it more thoroughly when we see that there has been work in that direction, yet at the same time, we might not have known where to start or even how the questions might be framed... .. So your post seems to frame the issues in an understandable way... even though there are still some folks who are not going to really understand the importance of such information.. and these things take a while to get into the consciousness of normie peeps in the population.

If/when Bitcoin gets real privacy, I expect that it will also embrace “selective disclosure”.  That would preserve irrevocable, undeniable, irrefutable blockchain information for legitimate use cases—while locking out the prying eyes of hackers, cyberstalkers, armed robbers, kidnappers seeking ransom, and commercial espionage that seeks to infer competitive business plans from financial transaction data.

I am a little bit surprised that you did not put governments into your above list.  Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-government because sometimes governments do have reasons to get involved in compiling information generally and sometimes they also have legitimate reasons to get into specifics and including some personal information matters, and sometimes their getting involved in compiling, composing and even snooping on citizens does have some legitimate public interest purposes.. but at the same time, we have seen that some of the governmental departments have become abusive with their access to some of the various kinds of private information.. and for sure, these are ever evolving lines in terms of how the internet contributes to a lot of free flow of information and disinformation too.. but then sometimes governments are not even always playing fairly with their attempts to engage in oversight or maybe even refrain from employing their own disinformation tactics..

and since we may well have realized that bitcoin is the money of the internet, bitcoin has provided with quite a few ways that monetary value can be literally attached to the transmission of information, so a whole new layer of complexity comes into play in regards to what lines might be being crossed if governments are prying into financial information that they might not have previously had access and for sure we cannot be presuming that they have any kind of inherent right to see the information and we cannot even presume that some of the legal precedent is correct in terms of some areas that they have historically had access or have not have had access. it remains quite murky, currently contentious in some circles and ongoingly with aspects of explosive potentialities.

There are a lot of us who recognize that in several ways bitcoin has been engaging in various kinds of implementation aspirations and even practices to attempt to mimics aspects of physical cash transactions and some of the privacy that can be present through physical cash transactions.. but of course, the transmissibility of bitcoin causes it to raise some potentially legitimate public interest concerns for whether the same levels of privacy might still be permissible within an instrument (such as bitcoin) in which it is so easy to transmit to anywhere in the world and to anyone without preemptively stopping it... but perhaps post hoc being able to look at it in the event that there might be some ways in which some of that remains traceable.. which quite a bit still is open in bitcoin but there have always been ways to make various aspects of transactions private, while even very sophisticated persons will still sometimes fuck up and cause leaks in their transactions, which surely remains in the public interest if crimes might have been committed.

That last is a huge impediment to big-business Bitcoin adoption.  Most retail-tier HODLers are blissfully ignorant about this, but some leading Bitcoiners are well-informed about the problem.  I recall that Greg Maxwell mentioned this, in some discussion of why he invented Confidential Transactions.  Bitcoin ultra-maximalist company Blockstream uses CT in its Liquid sidechain, for the purpose of giving big businesses and institutional investors at least a modicum of privacy.  I wouldn’t be surprised if some billionaires use Liquid and similar tools to break up the public view of their whale-HODLings.  Meanwhile, moronic “crypto journalists” run headlines about “the biggest whale!!” to impress the n00bs.  SAD.

Actually, that might be another good point that you are making D_W, and I would not characterize it as "sad" but instead a demonstration that there are a lot of folks who have hardly any clue and it is not necessarily a bad thing that they are engaged in some blissful renditions to describe what they believe is going on, and the same is true that sometimes we wished that the lawmakers were to know what they are talking about a wee bit MOAR better, and when they come out with such outrageously dumb talking points that conclude the opposite of the truth, such as proclaiming that bitcoin is not ESG-friendly, then sometimes we might want to breath some sighs of relief that anything that any of those kinds of lawmakers attempt to implement is going to cause them to get reckt in one way or another, even if it is just the downfall of their reputation showing that they don't know shit. .and they might even get memified into considerable public ridicule for how dumb they are...  

Quite a bit of the ESG and green movement discussions seem to be going down that path... not that they might not have some short-term traction in some jurisdictions and cause miner migration to more friendly jurisdictions and in the meantime, tick tock next block whether bitcoin has 1m miners or 10k miners, the difficulty is going to adjust . and yes there may well be some attempts to attack, but the attacker is going to have to build the fuck out of their mining fleet in order to engage in such mining attacks, and sure some of us (even yours truly) considered the possibility that the 2021 China miner drama could have some possibilities for government level attacks on bitcoin and its mining, and even if there might have been some preparations in that direction to make such an attack, it seems that bitcoin (and miners) learned from that, which seems to have made bitcoin stronger. and sure, never say never about various attacks that could be made or that are in the works of being set up, but bitcoin remains a pretty decent formidable and moving target that is not 100% invulnerable, but still I continue to believe that anyone who is a no coiner or a low coiner better get the fuck off of zero, and now is just as good as any other time, if not even better than it was 8 months ago.

[Mr.right85]

If/when Bitcoin gets real privacy, I expect that it will also embrace “selective disclosure”.  That would preserve irrevocable, undeniable, irrefutable blockchain information for legitimate use cases—while locking out the prying eyes of hackers, cyberstalkers, armed robbers, kidnappers seeking ransom, and commercial espionage that seeks to infer competitive business plans from financial transaction data.

Isn't the blockchain information irrevocable, undeniable and irrefutable because, from the way I know it, these attributes and the confirmation that follows broadcasted transactions are the ways in which the chains are ensured of security.

Speaking of selective disclosure, is that really going to be a plus to the blockchain technology?
You know, the only way for transactions not getting counterfeiters is the verifiable nature of the blocks. I'm not very deep into this stuff so, if am getting it wrong at some point, am happy to be corrected.
With these kidnappers, rubbers and others not knowing who is behind an address what matters to a selective disclosure?

[Hueristic]

[JayJuanGee]

JUST IN: Bitcoin miners have borrowed  $4B against their equipment - Bloomberg 😳

Bitcoin will get to $250K “by late 2022 or early 2023" says Tim Draper.

Source:https://twitter.com/BTC_Archive/status/1540723317790937090

I see this and I wonder,

What happened to the "Do not borrow to invest idea or principle"
Perhaps it's the trick on how they stay ahead?

But wait, they might have means to make up for any unexpected lose.
In the end, don't just jump in on a plan when you don't know the plan B!!!

Late 2025

This tells you, bitcoin is best for long term investment. You've got to be cultured enough to exercise years of patience and crypto is not some get rich, escape from poverty scheme. This idea gets you mixed up with pump and dump altcoins. Be patient wth bitcoin!!!

I agree with everything that you are saying Mr.right85 - except your belief that there is a rule about not borrowing to invest.  Historically, lots of folks get rich as fuck by borrowing to invest and also have been able to enjoy life much more because of their being able to front load investment and/or consumption.

Of course, the whole fucking debt system has both gotten out of hand, and has shown a lot of its flaws and inequities in recent times... but we do not necessarily need to get into system-wide issues regarding the many ways that the debt system is flawed in order to also understand that in an individual level there can be a lot of ways to employ debt wisely and also to put yourself in a much better place than you would have been able to do without the employment of debt.

I will point out that you have already implied the answer to the question that you posed in terms of how normies may get fucked by debt by either not having a plan B and/or by overdoing it (using debt to gamble in excessive ways).  I doubt that I really need to go into details on these points in order that any of us might be able to appreciate examples of good use of debt and bad use of debt and even appreciate the difference between reasonable kinds of gambling and/or investing  and unreasonable/excessive kinds of gambling and/or believing that you are investing when you are not.


Don't get me wrong, there may well be some cases that are ambiguous and fall in the middle and they may or may end up working out.. perhaps based on good luck or bad luck.. and sometimes mistakes are made too.  Sometimes a guy might engage in some risky gambling efforts to bet 8x than the BTC price is going to go up, but then accidentally bet 80x, and frequently that bet will cause him to get reckt, but every once in a while, he ended up getting lucky when the mistake paid off because he recognized the mistake after it had already caused unexpectedly larger profits than had been expected.

What's it mean?

hahahaha

[Mr.right85]

[edited out - parts]

Do you know the expression:  "parts is parts"?

 

Actually, I should not leave any curious cats hanging in terms of the actual reference in this one, because it is quite humorous, even though the substantive claims of the commercial are factually wrong and the overall commercial is attempting to sell process/fast foods as if processed food were real food.. but anyhow click on the link to experience 30 seconds of humor without necessarily buying into the commercial aspect of it that ended up being a lie.. but at the same time did have commercial success in terms of causing folks to match the expression "parts is parts" with a certain fast food chain.

What parts?

"parts is parts"

Yeah, it was indeed a 30secs of humour! Wendy got him!

What's it mean?

hahahaha

Wondering the same thing.
Perhaps it's Bubble B from the transformers looking to transform the bear market for a bull ride. See its fanlike wheels,  .

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[a1 Hashrate LLC2022]

If/when Bitcoin gets real privacy, I expect that it will also embrace “selective disclosure”.  That would preserve irrevocable, undeniable, irrefutable blockchain information for legitimate use cases—while locking out the prying eyes of hackers, cyberstalkers, armed robbers, kidnappers seeking ransom, and commercial espionage that seeks to infer competitive business plans from financial transaction data.

Isn't the blockchain information irrevocable, undeniable and irrefutable because, from the way I know it, these attributes and the confirmation that follows broadcasted transactions are the ways in which the chains are ensured of security.

Speaking of selective disclosure, is that really going to be a plus to the blockchain technology?
You know, the only way for transactions not getting counterfeiters is the verifiable nature of the blocks. I'm not very deep into this stuff so, if am getting it wrong at some point, am happy to be corrected.
With these kidnappers, rubbers and others not knowing who is behind an address what matters to a selective disclosure?

death wish is his own worse enemy.  We don't want or need undetectable btc in this world.

We need btc that can be hidden until you need to cash it.

 A)  I am in a country going bad.

 B) I leave it with an undetectable brain wallet--- I know other ways of moving it out of 1 spot to another.

 C) I use the wallet in a new country.

Almost any other reason to hid it is wrong or dishonest.

Fleeing the Nazi's--- cool go for it.

Screwing a business partner --not cool
Screwing a friend-- not cool
hiding from taxes and staying in a taxing place not cool- just leave that country

if death wish got his way and made btc untraceable it would be a target for all governments.

very loose and general write up.

[Bushdark]

Bitcoin whales are a very important part of the market. It is the mass movements of their coins that can have a huge impact on the price of BTC. This is how buying or selling trends are created. With this in mind, the big fish that decide to sell some of their Bitcoins can lead to a sharp drop in the price of cryptocurrency. As a result, many other investors start to panic selling out of their coins. The same dependence also occurs in the opposite situation. When large quantities of coins are purchased from the market, there are sudden increases in the price of Bitcoin. This in turn leads other players to buy it.


Whales - the biggest Bitcoin investors on the market, have a significant influence on the price movements of this crypto. Although little is known about this group until today, their identity can be speculated on.

The role whales play in the digital gold ecosystem is enormous. While many people suggest that large players only manipulate the market, in some cases the impact of their buying decisions was more positive than negative. For example, a report issued by Chainalysis revealed that owners of the 32 largest Bitcoin portfolios were trading in a herd, buying BTC at a price drop. In fact, the research indicates that already in 2011, the biggest market players were more responsible for Bitcoin's upward movements than its downward movements. This suggests that although whales have too much power over Bitcoin's price, a large part of them have long been trying to make this market successful.

[Biodom]

If/when Bitcoin gets real privacy, I expect that it will also embrace “selective disclosure”.  That would preserve irrevocable, undeniable, irrefutable blockchain information for legitimate use cases—while locking out the prying eyes of hackers, cyberstalkers, armed robbers, kidnappers seeking ransom, and commercial espionage that seeks to infer competitive business plans from financial transaction data.

Isn't the blockchain information irrevocable, undeniable and irrefutable because, from the way I know it, these attributes and the confirmation that follows broadcasted transactions are the ways in which the chains are ensured of security.

Speaking of selective disclosure, is that really going to be a plus to the blockchain technology?
You know, the only way for transactions not getting counterfeiters is the verifiable nature of the blocks. I'm not very deep into this stuff so, if am getting it wrong at some point, am happy to be corrected.
With these kidnappers, rubbers and others not knowing who is behind an address what matters to a selective disclosure?

We don't want or need undetectable btc in this world.

We need btc that can be hidden until you need to cash it.

 

Without agreeing or disagreeing, what is the difference between these two apparantly contradictory statements...aka "hidden" and "undetectable".
To me, "hidden" is being temporarily undetectable. Isn't it?

[Mr.right85]

Without agreeing or disagreeing, what is the difference between these two apparantly contradictory statements...aka "hidden" and "undetectable".
To me, "hidden" is being temporarily undetectable. Isn't it?

Perhaps, 'undetectable until you need to cash it'.

Makes sense now right!

Anyway they seem pretty much the same thing to me, given by that usage.

Quick one,

Should whales flood the market with massive sales just to dump bitcoin price in a bid that, they would buy from the dip:

Who was buying that much quantity that was able to cuase panic or offset the market while the whales sold?

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Gachapin]

I hope they fucking assemble it again soon...  choo choo

[death_wish]

If/when Bitcoin gets real privacy, I expect that it will also embrace “selective disclosure”.  That would preserve irrevocable, undeniable, irrefutable blockchain information for legitimate use cases—while locking out the prying eyes of hackers, cyberstalkers, armed robbers, kidnappers seeking ransom, and commercial espionage that seeks to infer competitive business plans from financial transaction data.

[...]

death wish is his own worse enemy.  We don't want or need undetectable btc in this world.

[...]

if death wish got his way and made btc untraceable it would be a target for all governments.

You have no idea what you are talking about.  You are just regurgitating whatever dumb anti-privacy propaganda FUD you saw from people who don’t actually know how the world works.  By analogy, you are also probably surprised, or unaware, that Twitter, Facebook, and The New York Times all have official Tor onion sites—whaaaa, I thought that .onion was only for teh scary “darkweb”!  Government will never allow onion sites to be mainstream!

Go argue with Tyler Winklevoss.  I hear that he has some BTC, too.

Twitter official onion: https://twitter3e4tixl4xyajtrzo62zg5vztmjuricljdp2c5kshju4avyoid.onion/tyler/status/1345138664377094144
Clearnet: Yuck!, or use Nitter if you’re smart.


Gemini supports ZEC shielding withdrawals.  You can go to Gemini right now, buy unlimited ZEC, and withdraw it straight into a wallet that is 100% invisible to the world.  The Winklevi like it that way, and they have the green light from New York State regulators.

I am guessing that NYDFS Bitlicensed, heavily regulated Gemini would probably support a strongly private BTC!

Of course, it is not very useful for hiding money from the government:  Gemini has your KYC dox.  I have been writing a much longer reply to Jay about that.  I will also reply soon-ish to Mr.right85.

[Edited to add:  As I also recently mentioned, Ethereum now has strong privacy with Tornado.Cash, Aztec Protocol, et al.  Vitalik personally supports this.  And I didn’t mention, Solana is also getting strong privacy—with full support from its core developers.  Why do you treat Bitcoin as the weakest coin, the only one that needs to fear having strong privacy?]
[Edited June 25, 2022, 11:49:46 PM to add that note, then later to add link.]

This is just a quickie.  My subsequent reply will involve this quote—Phil, do you suppose that Satoshi was his own worst enemy?

This is a very interesting topic.  If a solution was found, a much better, easier, more convenient implementation of Bitcoin would be possible.

[...]

It's hard to think of how to apply zero-knowledge-proofs in this case.

Satoshi wanted to make Bitcoin untraceable.  He just didn’t know how.  Bitcoin would soon inspire cryptographic research advances to solve that problem.

[suchmoon]

What's it mean?

hahahaha

Bitcoin choo choo undergoing maintenance, will be good as new soon enough and rolling to the moon.

The number on the side is a bit too low, they need to fix that.

[cAPSLOCK]

I have a hard time believing that anyone who holds/controls large sums of bitcoin are going to keep it in places that can be identified as being owned by one person or entity (unless they are a public company or a government that has to make those kinds of disclosures).  

If I were to hold any appreciable amount of Bitcoin (I do not, of course) I would set it up so that it was stored in a multisig cold storage setup (optionally with hardware wallets separately geo-located).  But I would also backup the private keys for each address with <1BTC.  No addresses would have more than, I dunno, 0.7BTC and all slightly different.  But there would be a spreadsheet, created on an airgapped laptop, that was GPG encrypted that held those individual keys... You know... In case.  I would have created detailed instructions on how to access all these Bitcoin (1. With hardware wallets, 2. With Seed Phrases and passwords 3. With individual private keys in the worst case scenario), and trained my wife, and eldest child on the procedure.

But I do not have that sort of Bitcoin stash, so I just hold what I have on Coinbase.

Plus if i DID have that sort of stash?? All those details up there?  Different than what I (would) have really done.

Or not?

Nevermind...

[philipma1957]

If/when Bitcoin gets real privacy, I expect that it will also embrace “selective disclosure”.  That would preserve irrevocable, undeniable, irrefutable blockchain information for legitimate use cases—while locking out the prying eyes of hackers, cyberstalkers, armed robbers, kidnappers seeking ransom, and commercial espionage that seeks to infer competitive business plans from financial transaction data.

Isn't the blockchain information irrevocable, undeniable and irrefutable because, from the way I know it, these attributes and the confirmation that follows broadcasted transactions are the ways in which the chains are ensured of security.

Speaking of selective disclosure, is that really going to be a plus to the blockchain technology?
You know, the only way for transactions not getting counterfeiters is the verifiable nature of the blocks. I'm not very deep into this stuff so, if am getting it wrong at some point, am happy to be corrected.
With these kidnappers, rubbers and others not knowing who is behind an address what matters to a selective disclosure?

We don't want or need undetectable btc in this world.

We need btc that can be hidden until you need to cash it.

 

Without agreeing or disagreeing, what is the difference between these two apparantly contradictory statements...aka "hidden" and "undetectable".
To me, "hidden" is being temporarily undetectable. Isn't it?

no it is fully detectable ie here is an address


https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/1BmZSqwX7GivA88FdqupyVRedzRRPE3chr


it moved coins and very likely the gov knows the actual owner.

and here is another address.

3MR9bkqFVX1f1QxutMu55J3VcvAESEw1Yd

no coin in it and the owner of it is hidden


but its existence is not undetectable.


hiding a virgin address is no big deal.

hiding an address owner and mining on an anyonomus pool will create a detectable amount of coin.

but no issue until you cash it out. if we make cash out impossible to detect the world governments will go after btc like mad.

the idea I can mine 100 usd worth of btc to an address no one knows the owner  is fine the governments clock these addresses and can go after you when you cash it.

but if I mine 100 a day on nicehash to a safe address and move out of my country .

(USA) it is likely I will beat the Gov.the money.

In my case my pension and my wife pension is all fed usa paid. so If I run from USA with "hidden BTC" then show it in a tax free country the USA will assess me a tax and confiscate our fed pensions.

I would need 200-300 btc to consider burning my USA citizenship. They don't worry about escape accounts for most of their citizens . As the escape account needs to be huge to be worth it.

Not many people have 200-300 btc in ownership hidden wallets.

[death_wish]

[...]  But I would also backup the private keys for each address with <1BTC.  [...]  I would have created detailed instructions on how to access all these Bitcoin (1. With hardware wallets, 2. With Seed Phrases and passwords 3. With individual private keys in the worst case scenario), and trained my wife, and eldest child on the procedure.

BIP 32 was invented for this reason.  It is the default for Bitcoin Core wallets, for this reason.  It is the standard of all reputable wallets, for this reason; and any decent wallet software will let you create new wallets on custom derivation paths.  (If a wallet does not support custom derivation paths, then it is trash.)

You do not need to back up private keys individually!  One seed backup suffices to back up a whole tree of hierarchical accounts.  Unlimited wallets.

This is a safety issue.  For the same reason that keypools are hazardous and harmful.  Multiplying the number of things that you need to back up tends to result in loss of funds, sooner or later.

That’s a basic safety feature; BIP 32 was developed after it was discovered that, in the nitty-gritty real world, keypools are a money-destroying misfeature.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[death_wish]

but no issue until you cash it out. if we make cash out impossible to detect the world governments will go after btc like mad.

Something is wrong here.  Why do you speak of “cashing out” in the context of mining?

Mining is only an indirect way to cash out your central bank shitcoins to money, i.e. Bitcoin:  Pay electricity costs directly in $hitcoins, receive money in the “Be Your Own Bank” bank.  But it is not as anonymous as you suppose:  High electricity usage is very difficult to conceal.  Many people attempting to hide activities with high electric draw (e.g., clandestine indoor marijuana growing) have been caught this way.

If you have anonymous dollars, there are more private ways to cash out to Bitcoin.