Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[death_wish]

By the way, cAPSLOCK:  When Richy_T civilly disagreed with me based on his outdated information about Blockstream Satellite, and I corrected him, he kinda-sorta acknowledged his mistake; and he continued with a constructive discussion.  Why do you dodge the factual correction of your very rude misinformation?

ZCASH is a fucking trusted setup

Your are ill-informed.  The trusted setup is dead.  Gone with Halo2.  Zcash’s Orchard shielded value pool, activated on mainnet in May 2022, has no trusted setup!

That is one of several major reasons why I declare the technology now “mature”:  No more trusted setup.  I put up with the trusted setup in Zcash myself, from its beginning until 2022; but I disliked it.  I would not want to bring it to Bitcoin.  The Zcash team also disliked it—actually, they hated it!  Therefore, they spent years working on improved cryptography to get rid of it forever.

You also have not answered my point about a “dev tax”.  cAPSLOCK, you hate the idea of a “dev tax”; and you insult altcoins that have a “dev tax”.  So, over all these years that you have enjoyed Bitcoin, have you donated any nontrivial amounts to support Bitcoin Core development?  Developers need to be paid somehow.  I know that some big BTC HODLers are very good about this; they tend not to be the ones who sneer at little altcoins for having a “dev tax”, for they understand that developers need to be paid somehow.

There are many reasons Zcrap is not discussed here, not the least of which is respect for the WO.

If you want to shill it them start a thread in the appropriate section.

Who knows maybe you will make a convert or two if you do it appropriately.

I haven't even bothered to read your arguments about it as it is about as OFF TOPIC as it gets in the thread and is a complete SCAM in my view.

If you had bothered to read my arguments about it, then you would know that I was not shilling for Zcash.  Rather, I am discussing my desire to bring zero-knowledge proof privacy to Bitcoin—a goal which would make Zcash obsolete, thus not a great way to shill for them!

The technology was originally conceived for Bitcoin.  Satoshi wished for zero-knowledge proofs.  The Zerocoin project was a concept for Bitcoin.  The original Zerocash paper presented a design for Bitcoin, before it was eventually turned into the Zcash altcoin.  I have linked and/or quoted relevant history here, in the posts that you did not bother to read.

As things now stand, it is practically impossible to discuss zero-knowledge proofs for Bitcoin without discussing the technologies and the real-world experiences from the premier ZK proof privacy altcoin.  I will not self-censor to avoid knee-jerk reactions:  That would prevent me from discussing my longtime dream of having ZK proof privacy in Bitcoin.  I have been wanting that since around 2013, according to my recollection of when I first heard of Zerocoin.

Edit:  Extra highlighting added in internal quote.  I was talking about Bitcoin.

[1714689049]

1714689049

[1714689049]

1714689049

[Hueristic]

As things now stand, it is practically impossible to discuss zero-knowledge proofs for Bitcoin without discussing the technologies and the real-world experiences from the premier ZK proof privacy altcoin.  I will not self-censor to avoid knee-jerk reactions:  That would prevent me from discussing my longtime dream of having ZK proof privacy in Bitcoin.  I have been wanting that since around 2013, according to my recollection of when I first heard of Zerocoin.

Just equating Zero Knowledge Proofs to zcrap here is a disingenuous argument, in your continual context you act as though Zcrap led the way when in fact ZKP has been used forever and it is essential to any privacy algorithm.

With that being said there is ZERO reason to bring up that shitcoin when trying to discuss ZKP.

[modrobert]

https://www.blockchain.com/it/btc/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa

For a signature, or to “move his stash” as you said?  The Genesis coinbase itself can’t be moved; it is not sent to that address, but rather, in P2PK to a public key that people convert to that P2PKH address as an anachronism.

18.53375545 BTC (as of writing) from that address can be moved, if you have the wallet (private key) of Satoshi.

The correct (movable) amount is listed by Block Stream Explorer (note how the 50 BTC mining reward transaction is not listed here for the same address):
https://blockstream.info/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa

[death_wish]

As things now stand, it is practically impossible to discuss zero-knowledge proofs for Bitcoin without discussing the technologies and the real-world experiences from the premier ZK proof privacy altcoin.  I will not self-censor to avoid knee-jerk reactions:  That would prevent me from discussing my longtime dream of having ZK proof privacy in Bitcoin.  I have been wanting that since around 2013, according to my recollection of when I first heard of Zerocoin.

Just equating Zero Knowledge Proofs to zcrap here is a disingenuous argument, in your continual context you act as though Zcrap led the way when in fact ZKP has been used forever and it is essential to any privacy algorithm.

With that being said there is ZERO reason to bring up that shitcoin when trying to discuss ZKP.

Pretending that Zcash doesn’t have the best and only yet-seen practical way to apply ZKP here is a disingenuous argument.  Especially since I want to copy their open-source technology—research and development of which was paid for by their “dev tax”.  (Thanks.)

There does not exist any other decentralized privacy solution that reveals zero information.  In one of the posts that you said you did not bother to read, I explained why.

All other existing privacy solutions either are copies of Zcash, or are centralized (with blind signatures, as Digicash), or rely on decoy obfuscation of leaked information to try to cover up the trail of transactions (Monero mixins).  (Or are ridiculous outright scams, such DASH.  Or rely on trusted hardware enclaves, like some new shitcoins—literally “Intel inside!”)  Monero (or Blockstream’s Liquid) technically use “zero-knowledge proofs” to keep transaction amounts confidential, but they are not overall “zero-knowledge”.  Your claim that “ZKP has been used forever and it is essential to any privacy algorithm” is hypertechnical hairsplitting to avoid an obvious point.

[a1 Hashrate LLC2022]

Just purchased more btc at 20.7k

Will buy more next week

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Hueristic]

As things now stand, it is practically impossible to discuss zero-knowledge proofs for Bitcoin without discussing the technologies and the real-world experiences from the premier ZK proof privacy altcoin.  I will not self-censor to avoid knee-jerk reactions:  That would prevent me from discussing my longtime dream of having ZK proof privacy in Bitcoin.  I have been wanting that since around 2013, according to my recollection of when I first heard of Zerocoin.

Just equating Zero Knowledge Proofs to zcrap here is a disingenuous argument, in your continual context you act as though Zcrap led the way when in fact ZKP has been used forever and it is essential to any privacy algorithm.

With that being said there is ZERO reason to bring up that shitcoin when trying to discuss ZKP.

Pretending that Zcash doesn’t have the best and only yet-seen practical way to apply ZKP here is a disingenuous argument.  Especially since I want to copy their open-source technology—research and development of which was paid for by their “dev tax”.  (Thanks.)

There does not exist any other decentralized privacy solution that reveals zero information.  In one of the posts that you said you did not bother to read, I explained why.

All other existing privacy solutions either are copies of Zcash, or are centralized (with blind signatures, as Digicash), or rely on decoy obfuscation of leaked information to try to cover up the trail of transactions (Monero mixins).  (Or are ridiculous outright scams, such DASH.  Or rely on trusted hardware enclaves, like some new shitcoins—literally “Intel inside!”)  Monero (or Blockstream’s Liquid) technically use “zero-knowledge proofs” to keep transaction amounts confidential, but they are not overall “zero-knowledge”.  Your claim that “ZKP has been used forever and it is essential to any privacy algorithm” is hypertechnical hairsplitting to avoid an obvious point.

[JayJuanGee]

@JJG...regarding holdings going up or down.

Current users is an unknown number because many have just coinbase, binance, etc accounts.
let's assume it is 100-300 mil or take an average of 200 mil.
It is much less than humans on earth by a factor of about 40X.

Therefore, it is inevitable that current holders would have to sell some btc to accommodate new users. Of course, it would occur not by edict, but naturally.

How much each current user "has" to sell (on average)?
My approximation: 21mil-2mil (still to mine, so we don't need to worry about those coins, newcomers can theoretically get all of them)=19mil coins already distributed.
19mil/7.84bil=0.0024 BTC
0.0024X40=0.097 btc

Therefore, I suggest that if you already bought or mined bitcoin and then sold at least roughly 0.1btc, it means that you already distributed enough btc for 40 users at the steady-state level (all that is needed for 40 accounts on average). Of course people could do extra, but selling 0.1btc (on average per current owner and over the last 13 years and probably the next 5-10) would do the trick of "pollination" of the newbies accounts.

This does not preclude periodically buying or mining more, of course.

The fun part is to take how much you sold already and then divide by 0.0024btc. That would equal the number of future average bitcoin accounts (of newbs) you have potentially seeded.

EDIT: Laslo "seeded" 4mil 167thou future average accounts by his 10K btc pizza buy. Such generosity!

I have some troubles understanding how your point relates very much to any of the various points that I had been making in recent times, and I think one of my major points had to do with why would anyone with an already decently large BTC stash have any kind of reasonable, practical or prudent motivation to continue to keep building his/her BTC size, and my vantage point really did not have much if anything to do with how much the selling behavior of such person(s) would be potentially good for the overall bitcoin eco-system - and even you seem to concede that the availability of coinz is all going to "naturally" work itself out in terms of coins being sold at whatever price BTC HODLers choose to release my lil precious..

....and for example if BTC prices ended up being $10million per coin, and we had not sold any and we did not have anything else in the whole world besides our 0.1 BTC that we had been saving and saving and saving, we may well be forced to shave off a wee bit of that if we happen to be hungry - because I doubt that food is going to become free.. and maybe even we might have some desires/needs for other stuff too?   and so yeah, if we really fucked up and Gresham lawed to the max by spending every other money or asset that we had, at some point, we might need to shave some off (ooh maybe we also maxed out our collateralized loans against BTC too. and if a payment is due and we don't got any other monies, it may well be better to shave off some lillie precious rather than lose a leg, no? loan sharks might not be no funzies if they not be getting their payments)..

In other words, you are not making bad points, but they seems to be directed thematically different from my own potentially related previous talking points.    

Hey Bros, i'm in a hurry, so here's that promised photo from NGC7000 (North America Nebula). Seond try, because my lens fogged in the humid air of the night.
Details: 200mm lens on a H-Alpha modified DSLR, 100x25 sec frames for the stars, 20x60 sec frames for the nebula.

Hmm, yours fogged and you just had to try again and mine fogged and I ate a telephone pole. Maybe I should change hobbies.

Hm?

You are blaming some kinds of lens fogging for your M/c accident?

I spent quite a bit of time in my youth (and even into my middle age driving motorcycles - not so much recently, but not really opposed to the idea. and surely in some locations, driving MC/scooters can be quite practical, convenient and surely fun).. .when I was really young, fuck I was a risk taker and overall just have to say that there was some luck to get through that period without any major life-diminishing encounters with either moving or stationary objects.

By the way, I know about lenses fogging too, so I would not even have had been questioning your rendition of blame (at least in part).  

I recall that frequently I would drive with my helmet visor up (especially at night.. and part of the reason did have to do with some of the fogging that would happen if I put it down), and I would just use the plastic windshield on the motorcycle as a means to block the vast majority of the road wind, and I was on a somewhat country highway and going about 50mph/80kmh.. and in some miraculous kind of a way, some kind of bug ended up hitting me between the eyes, very close to my right eye, and did not even hit the eye, but that impact was so painful and debilitating to my eyesight.  It was like all of a sudden going blind but still being able to force a wee bit of eyesight (but not easy because both eyes were tearing and really wanting to close).. I was so fucking lucky that I was able to stop. .and in a kind of almost blind state in the middle of nowhere, and I did not even fall of the motorcycle.. another lucky thing that I was barely able to do and to muster enough muscle movement to accomplish.

Once I stopped, I did recover within about 5-10 minutes and I was even able to open both eyes and stop them from continuing to tear.  Luck sometimes.. and surely I did not stop riding motorcycle from that, and I did not even stop putting my visor up either, but it only happened once in my many thousands of hours of overall ride time.

[death_wish]

https://www.blockchain.com/it/btc/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa

For a signature, or to “move his stash” as you said?  The Genesis coinbase itself can’t be moved; it is not sent to that address, but rather, in P2PK to a public key that people convert to that P2PKH address as an anachronism.

18.53375545 BTC (as of writing) from that address can be moved, if you have the wallet (private key) of Satoshi.

The correct (movable) amount is listed by Block Stream Explorer (note how the 50 BTC mining reward transaction is not listed here for the same address):
https://blockstream.info/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa

I almost said as much, but then cut it as an unnecessary tangent.  I try to prevent my posts from being too long.

If I know that people are converting the Genesis coinbase P2PK key to a P2PKH address (an arcane detail that few realize), I obviously know that idiots have been sending money there, and how much of it, and that it can be moved.  Should I now embark on the long tangent I had in mind about why sending money there is a bad idea?

The point from which I do not want to distract with this irrelevant tangent:  Moving money around not the right way to ask Satoshi to prove his identity.  signmessage exists, and it works.  Satoshi has a PGP key; I linked to this forum’s copy of it, and I provided the fingerprint.  The threshold test for any Satoshi claimant is to sign an appropriate message with a known Satoshi key.

[Hueristic]

Hm?

You are blaming some kinds of lens fogging for your M/c accident?

I spent quite a bit of time in my youth (and even into my middle age driving motorcycles - not so much recently, but not really opposed to the idea. and surely in some locations, driving MC/scooters can be quite practical, convenient and surely fun).. .when I was really young, fuck I was a risk taker and overall just have to say that there was some luck to get through that period without any major life-diminishing encounters with either moving or stationary objects.

By the way, I know about lenses fogging too, so I would not even have had been questioning your rendition of blame (at least in part).  

I recall that frequently I would drive with my helmet visor up (especially at night.. and part of the reason did have to do with some of the fogging that would happen if I put it down), and I would just use the plastic windshield on the motorcycle as a means to block the vast majority of the road wind, and I was on a somewhat country highway and going about 50mph/80kmh.. and in some miraculous kind of a way, some kind of bug ended up hitting me between the eyes, very close to my right eye, and did not even hit the eye, but that impact was so painful and debilitating to my eyesight.  It was like all of a sudden going blind but still being able to force a wee bit of eyesight (but not easy because both eyes were tearing and really wanting to close).. I was so fucking lucky that I was able to stop. .and in a kind of almost blind state in the middle of nowhere, and I did not even fall of the motorcycle.. another lucky thing that I was barely able to do and to muster enough muscle movement to accomplish.

Once I stopped, I did recover within about 5-10 minutes and I was even able to open both eyes and stop them from continuing to tear.  Luck sometimes.. and surely I did not stop riding motorcycle from that, and I did not even stop putting my visor up either, but it only happened once in my many thousands of hours of overall ride time.

Shit, thought I had mentioned that, only recently have gotten the pain management under control enough o make coherent thoughts so I'll reiterate here.

I was leaving the Casino ~2am following 2 SUV's around a bend when we hit a fog bank and I'm not completely sure if the visor fogged up as well as it was so instant but I went to zero visibility in a corner and had nothing to gauge where I was heading besides the taillights of the vehicle directly in front of me. I pulled in the clutch and started to brake as quickly as possible while following the taillights in front of me only to have the SUV Brake hard and veer off to the left only to notice that there was grass under the SUV instead of pavement. As I tried to follow the bike slid out from under me on the wet grass and mud not unlike a hydroplaning effect and while the bike slid off to the side into a chain link fence I hit the ground and rolled into a telephone pole. We were doing about 45 Mph.

[Biodom]

Hm?

You are blaming some kinds of lens fogging for your M/c accident?

I spent quite a bit of time in my youth (and even into my middle age driving motorcycles - not so much recently, but not really opposed to the idea. and surely in some locations, driving MC/scooters can be quite practical, convenient and surely fun).. .when I was really young, fuck I was a risk taker and overall just have to say that there was some luck to get through that period without any major life-diminishing encounters with either moving or stationary objects.

By the way, I know about lenses fogging too, so I would not even have had been questioning your rendition of blame (at least in part).  

I recall that frequently I would drive with my helmet visor up (especially at night.. and part of the reason did have to do with some of the fogging that would happen if I put it down), and I would just use the plastic windshield on the motorcycle as a means to block the vast majority of the road wind, and I was on a somewhat country highway and going about 50mph/80kmh.. and in some miraculous kind of a way, some kind of bug ended up hitting me between the eyes, very close to my right eye, and did not even hit the eye, but that impact was so painful and debilitating to my eyesight.  It was like all of a sudden going blind but still being able to force a wee bit of eyesight (but not easy because both eyes were tearing and really wanting to close).. I was so fucking lucky that I was able to stop. .and in a kind of almost blind state in the middle of nowhere, and I did not even fall of the motorcycle.. another lucky thing that I was barely able to do and to muster enough muscle movement to accomplish.

Once I stopped, I did recover within about 5-10 minutes and I was even able to open both eyes and stop them from continuing to tear.  Luck sometimes.. and surely I did not stop riding motorcycle from that, and I did not even stop putting my visor up either, but it only happened once in my many thousands of hours of overall ride time.

Shit, thought I had mentioned that, only recently have gotten the pain management under control enough o make coherent thoughts so I'll reiterate here.

I was leaving the Casino ~2am following 2 SUV's around a bend when we hit a fog bank and I'm not completely sure if the visor fogged up as well as it was so instant but I went to zero visibility in a corner and had nothing to gauge where I was heading besides the taillights of the vehicle directly in front of me. I pulled in the clutch and started to brake as quickly as possible while following the taillights in front of me only to have the SUV Brake hard and veer off to the left only to notice that there was grass under the SUV instead of pavement. As I tried to follow the bike slid out from under me on the wet grass and mud not unlike a hydroplaning effect and while the bike slid off to the side into a chain link fence I hit the ground and rolled into a telephone pole. We were doing about 45 Mph.

Sounds awful..and just painkillers are not the worst outcome, perhaps, all things considered.

[JayJuanGee]

You should know better, personally.  By the time that JayJuanGee (sorry, Jay, you have said when you got in)—or for that matter, by the time that conceited, Coinbase-defending n00b Torque discovered Bitcoin, most of the worst Ponzis and other high-yield investment scams had either condignly imploded into bankruptcy, or been forcibly cleaned up, or been relegated to the criminal underworld where they properly belong.  Though they both suffered at least the immediate fallout of Gox stupidity to all Bitcoinland, regardless of whether any particular individual got Goxed.

I understand that you are being both a bit tongue and cheek, but you are also attempting to suggest that none of us are completely pure, and surely I have no problems with that, but even when you might be trying to play off of ongoing misconceptions, you still seem to be playing with fire in the various ways that you are poking fun.

On a personal basis, I know that negative brushing of bitcoin existed at the time that I got in, and also that a lot of the negative brushing pre-dated me, and some of t had factual bases to it, too.

Sometimes there was jest too, so it's going to be difficult to impute blameworthy type knowledge - even to folks who might have gotten involved in one way or another with individuals of questionable characters - but just like you were suggesting the other day, sometimes we still might need to figure out if some people might have characters less pure than they proclaim based on some of their prior involvement in certain kinds of businesses or even certain positions that they took in various public forums.

One of the risks for me has been that I have written a quite a few words, over the years, believe it or not.. and yeah, we live in a much more complicated world when we have the various combination choices in regards to various online identities and real life identities and the extent to which those sometimes might get connected, and ev en how much do we need to be traceable if we are just spouting out information on the interwebs versus if we might be wanting to sell a good or service to someone.. a tangible or an intangible?

Surely there has been more and more thoughts in relationship to how internet identities might be connected in somewhat anonymous ways, and surely some folks are going to want to start over if they did some illegal or scammy shit, so it might not alway be clear if there might be work arounds for some of the new systems that are being proposed and developed.
 

2012: Bitcoin went up!  I bought in for A dollar and sold for  $50!  I am a genius to have cashed out of that ponzi.

Your snark shows your doublethink and selective memory about even such an infamous meltdown as pirateat40.  Never mind the obscure chicanery that I quoted above.  Bitcoin was still riddled with Ponzis and High Yield Investment scams in 2012.  Only a visionary with extreme risk tolerance would have taken any significant financial risk on it then.

Seems to me that people can choose however they like to spin the past, and we are not always going to want to spin matters in the same way that you do, which surely might provide value if there are different ways of spinning similar facts. .. and your contrary way of spinning the matter, D_W, which you seem to be implying is more true, shows that it is quite doubtful that anyone would have necessarily have been imputed with the knowledge that you are proclaiming to be emblematic of the referenced (in this case 2012) period.

I know that some big BTC HODLers are very good about this; they tend not to be the ones who sneer at little altcoins for having a “dev tax”, for they understand that developers need to be paid somehow.

Fuck shitcoins and your seemingly holier than thou attempts to inject their discussion in this thread as if the various compare and contrast cost/benefits are as very relevant at all to our discussion in these here parts as you are trying to make them out to be through your implicit denigration of our lil precious too..

Remember.. overall we are not claiming to be a bunch of smarties here, but you seem to want to get us into various in the weeds discussion of bitcoin.. but instead why not take those kinds of promotions about how your various shitcoins and their funding is wonderful to some other thread where you are pumping those kinds of seemingly nuanced / nonsense compare contrast talking points, no?

Recall the default mode in this here thread seems to be "fuck shitcoins, ain't nobody got time for that."  "Take your nuanced criticizing of king daddy pumping of dee shitcoins bullshit to some udder parts."

[Hueristic]

Shit, thought I had mentioned that, only recently have gotten the pain management under control enough o make coherent thoughts so I'll reiterate here.

I was leaving the Casino ~2am following 2 SUV's around a bend when we hit a fog bank and I'm not completely sure if the visor fogged up as well as it was so instant but I went to zero visibility in a corner and had nothing to gauge where I was heading besides the taillights of the vehicle directly in front of me. I pulled in the clutch and started to brake as quickly as possible while following the taillights in front of me only to have the SUV Brake hard and veer off to the left only to notice that there was grass under the SUV instead of pavement. As I tried to follow the bike slid out from under me on the wet grass and mud not unlike a hydroplaning effect and while the bike slid off to the side into a chain link fence I hit the ground and rolled into a telephone pole. We were doing about 45 Mph.

Sounds awful..and just painkillers are not the worst outcome, perhaps, all things considered.

Yeah, The Doc said I was pretty lucky all the bones are lined up so they didn't have to pin them but I'm pretty sure thats because I got up and aligned them while leaning on the dude that pulled over. LOL

Funny thing is the guy who finally stopped ended up being someone I played against all night.

*Also they were giving me fentanol injections so I asked the doc if he was trying to OD me?

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[JayJuanGee]

By the way, cAPSLOCK:  When Richy_T civilly disagreed with me based on his outdated information about Blockstream Satellite, and I corrected him, he kinda-sorta acknowledged his mistake; and he continued with a constructive discussion.  Why do you dodge the factual correction of your very rude misinformation?

ZCASH is a fucking trusted setup

Your are ill-informed.  The trusted setup is dead.  Gone with Halo2.  Zcash’s Orchard shielded value pool, activated on mainnet in May 2022, has no trusted setup!

That is one of several major reasons why I declare the technology now “mature”:  No more trusted setup.  I put up with the trusted setup in Zcash myself, from its beginning until 2022; but I disliked it.  I would not want to bring it to Bitcoin.  The Zcash team also disliked it—actually, they hated it!  Therefore, they spent years working on improved cryptography to get rid of it forever.

You also have not answered my point about a “dev tax”.  cAPSLOCK, you hate the idea of a “dev tax”; and you insult altcoins that have a “dev tax”.  So, over all these years that you have enjoyed Bitcoin, have you donated any nontrivial amounts to support Bitcoin Core development?  Developers need to be paid somehow.  I know that some big BTC HODLers are very good about this; they tend not to be the ones who sneer at little altcoins for having a “dev tax”, for they understand that developers need to be paid somehow.

There are many reasons Zcrap is not discussed here, not the least of which is respect for the WO.

If you want to shill it them start a thread in the appropriate section.

Who knows maybe you will make a convert or two if you do it appropriately.

I haven't even bothered to read your arguments about it as it is about as OFF TOPIC as it gets in the thread and is a complete SCAM in my view.

If you had bothered to read my arguments about it, then you would know that I was not shilling for Zcash.  Rather, I am discussing my desire to bring zero-knowledge proof privacy to Bitcoin—a goal which would make Zcash obsolete, thus not a great way to shill for them!

The technology was originally conceived for Bitcoin.  Satoshi wished for zero-knowledge proofs.  The Zerocoin project was a concept for Bitcoin.  The original Zerocash paper presented a design for Bitcoin, before it was eventually turned into the Zcash altcoin.  I have linked and/or quoted relevant history here, in the posts that you did not bother to read.

As things now stand, it is practically impossible to discuss zero-knowledge proofs for Bitcoin without discussing the technologies and the real-world experiences from the premier ZK proof privacy altcoin.  I will not self-censor to avoid knee-jerk reactions:  That would prevent me from discussing my longtime dream of having ZK proof privacy in Bitcoin.  I have been wanting that since around 2013, according to my recollection of when I first heard of Zerocoin.

Edit:  Extra highlighting added in internal quote.  I was talking about Bitcoin.

My impression might not be exactly the same as Hueristic, but still in the ballpark of what the fuck you bringing that shit here.

This is not a technical thread, but you want to bombard the thread with technical mumbo-jumbo, and if you want to fix (improve) bitcoin in various ways work on your BIP and/or partner up with some like-minded and complementary dweeb like ur lil selfie, and set forth the BIP..

If there is a BIP, you can still reference it here.

Surely, in the end, you have the right to post whatever the fuck you want here, including no need to self-censor like you mentioned, but it seems like you are striving to appeal to the wrong audience in these here parts.. we are better at fart jokes and things like that... looking at you    @sirazimuth

 

As things now stand, it is practically impossible to discuss zero-knowledge proofs for Bitcoin without discussing the technologies and the real-world experiences from the premier ZK proof privacy altcoin.  I will not self-censor to avoid knee-jerk reactions:  That would prevent me from discussing my longtime dream of having ZK proof privacy in Bitcoin.  I have been wanting that since around 2013, according to my recollection of when I first heard of Zerocoin.

Just equating Zero Knowledge Proofs to zcrap here is a disingenuous argument, in your continual context you act as though Zcrap led the way when in fact ZKP has been used forever and it is essential to any privacy algorithm.

With that being said there is ZERO reason to bring up that shitcoin when trying to discuss ZKP.

Pretending that Zcash doesn’t have the best and only yet-seen practical way to apply ZKP here is a disingenuous argument.  Especially since I want to copy their open-source technology—research and development of which was paid for by their “dev tax”.  (Thanks.)

Fuck shitcoins and their pumpenings in these here parts.

There does not exist any other decentralized privacy solution that reveals zero information.  In one of the posts that you said you did not bother to read, I explained why.

All other existing privacy solutions either are copies of Zcash, or are centralized (with blind signatures, as Digicash), or rely on decoy obfuscation of leaked information to try to cover up the trail of transactions (Monero mixins).  (Or are ridiculous outright scams, such DASH.  Or rely on trusted hardware enclaves, like some new shitcoins—literally “Intel inside!”)  Monero (or Blockstream’s Liquid) technically use “zero-knowledge proofs” to keep transaction amounts confidential, but they are not overall “zero-knowledge”.  Your claim that “ZKP has been used forever and it is essential to any privacy algorithm” is hypertechnical hairsplitting to avoid an obvious point.

Even if you are correct... who fucking cares?

Do you have a fart joke?  or a cladily dressed chica?  chico for bbbbbbaaaawwwbbbb.. ?

in udder wurds..

ain't nobody got time for comparison contrasts regarding which shitcoin might be less shitty in terms of some abstract presentations that ONLY fewer than 1 (if that's possible) out of 100 of us will likely understand 1/4 of what you be saying anyhow.  Not that very many of us (royal perhaps?) even understand 1/2 of what you be saying when you are talking about somewhat "normal" and potentially within our grasps topics.

[Hueristic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JYp9eGC3Cc&t=52s

[nanobtc]

@JJG  the command in Linux   wc  is short for "word count". It's a small free utility included with every version of Linux for decades.  You run it manually, from a command line. In my case, I save copy/paste into a text file (dodging around quotes, to keep it pure), then run wc with the appropriate switches. Here's all the switches, I just use -w for here.

The jjg1.txt stuff is small errors on my part, in multiple filenames saving them locally. It's all in good fun, since you are infamous...  Now wc gives an easy way to compare. But, ain't nobody got time for that...

The  options  below may be used to select which counts are printed, always in the following order: newline, word,  character,  byte,  maximum
       line length.

       -c, --bytes
              print the byte counts

       -m, --chars
              print the character counts

       -l, --lines
              print the newline counts

       --files0-from=F
              read  input  from the files specified by NUL-terminated names in
              file F; If F is - then read names from standard input

       -L, --max-line-length
              print the maximum display width

       -w, --words
              print the word counts

       --help display this help and exit

       --version
              output version information and exit

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[death_wish]

and if half the conversations are one mad man talking to himself (I am kinda kidding)

I recall that nullius said similarly.  I could look around and find it in his prolific wall-of-words post history.  Are you nullius?

https://web.archive.org/web/20120712200425/http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

You want this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120712200425/http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

Actually, everybody on the forum should read that (and a few like things).

The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies

https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm



(Reminder)

I also found a nully quote substantively similar to empowering’s statement quoted at the top; but this string of quotes will get too long here.

By the standards of some leading DT members, that is 100% CONCLUSIVE PROOF that empowering is a nully alt.  Any contradiction of this proof shall only strengthen the proof to 1000% conclusiveness, with pretzel-logic that puts you in a classic Kafkatrap.^*  Denial of an allegation proves the allegation.  Refusal to answer equals denial, and therefore proves the allegation.  @empowering, you must confess, as if you are on trial for witchcraft...

(Hey, nully was infamous for his sympathies with witches.)

It is well-known that at trial for witchcraft, the witch will deny or even refuse to answer to witchcraft charges.

...and this is of critical importance because—um, I dunno.  You/nullius are not accused of any fraud based on scamming people with multiple identities, or of any other multi-account abuses.  There is no rational reason to make an issue of the possibility that you may or may not be nullius.  Frankly, it is nobody’s business if you are.  But for whatever reason, the most important issue in the world is to make you admit your nullianity right now, on the spot, on-demand.  If you don’t, that also proves that nullius is a deeply dishonest and untrustworthy person.

Now, empowering, since I have PROVED that you are nullius and you had better well damn confess, I must wonder:  “empowering” was created in 2013.  “nullius” was created in 2017.  Have I discovered nully’s “main account”?  Or is there an older one?

Nullius' knowledge about blockchain science and cryptography is a dead giveaway....  He could even be Satoshi.  

nullius is lauda. That is very clear. Anyone who does not see this is simply closing their eyes.

nullius is cthulhu. That is very clear. Anyone who does not see this is simply closing their eyes.

^* “Kafkatrap” is a coin termed by ESR in 2010 for an informal fallacy, in which denial of an accusation is taken as evidence that the accusation is true.  It is a disturbingly common fallacy.  And once you are in a Kafkatrap, the harder you struggle to prove your denial, the worse you are lying to cover up and evade the truth.