MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[raskul]

also sitting around with their hoodies up in japan looks super sketchy.

This was funny, care to elaborate?

Maybe the usual custom in Japan is to wear only a t-shirt while its freezing cold and snowing like Karpeles does?

Karpless is heating inside so he don't need to wear warm cloths

that's blubber.

[Neuerung]

Repost for visibility:

Today on #bitcoin

gmaxwell: wumpus: yea, I understand they had timed automatic reissues... this was also something I didn't know prior to monday before last and is one of the other reasons my "they couldn't have lost much!" position softened to "I have no freeking clue."
alpha125: gmaxwell: where did you find out abotu the automatic reissues?
gmaxwell: alpha125: from mtgox staff and magicaltux ... I had assumed previously that any reissues were manual via customer support but apparently it was just timed.
gmaxwell: you'll also note that they've kept increasing their fees and then even mad paying fees mandatory.
gmaxwell: This suggested to me that they totally misunderstood their problems. (and— I reported that I believed this months ago too)
gmaxwell: e.g. they noticed lots of txn getting stuck, they didn't understand it was because they were producing invalid txn (even though it was reported to them) and so they thought it was just 'full blocks'
gmaxwell: and they increased their fees from 0.0001 to 0.0005 — which was enough to may more than virtually every txn— and then later to 0.001 which is basically astronomic. And then they made it mandatory.
gmaxwell: of course their stalled txn had nothing to do with fees.

Edit: Just to clarify, only quoted relevant parts (maybe I should have inserted "[...]" where applicable). Full text here: http://pastebin.com/DaSph9uT

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg5278421#msg5278421

If this automatic resend is really true, mtgox could have lost HUGE amounts of money in a short period of time:

A thief could have simply withdrawn his btc from his goxwallet to an external btc wallet, they would be resend automatically (or even two or three or four times) due to the malleability without even the need to contact customer support, and then he could redeposit these external bitcoins (now much more) back into his mtgox btc account. Then he could start this cycle again. Because this cycle does not involve any fiat withdrawals or fiat deposits at all, the cycle could have been done very fast and a lot of times with exponentially more bitcoins each time.

This would be really disastreous to mtgox.

[Rampion]

Repost for visibility:

Today on #bitcoin

gmaxwell: wumpus: yea, I understand they had timed automatic reissues... this was also something I didn't know prior to monday before last and is one of the other reasons my "they couldn't have lost much!" position softened to "I have no freeking clue."
alpha125: gmaxwell: where did you find out abotu the automatic reissues?
gmaxwell: alpha125: from mtgox staff and magicaltux ... I had assumed previously that any reissues were manual via customer support but apparently it was just timed.
gmaxwell: you'll also note that they've kept increasing their fees and then even mad paying fees mandatory.
gmaxwell: This suggested to me that they totally misunderstood their problems. (and— I reported that I believed this months ago too)
gmaxwell: e.g. they noticed lots of txn getting stuck, they didn't understand it was because they were producing invalid txn (even though it was reported to them) and so they thought it was just 'full blocks'
gmaxwell: and they increased their fees from 0.0001 to 0.0005 — which was enough to may more than virtually every txn— and then later to 0.001 which is basically astronomic. And then they made it mandatory.
gmaxwell: of course their stalled txn had nothing to do with fees.

Edit: Just to clarify, only quoted relevant parts (maybe I should have inserted "[...]" where applicable). Full text here: http://pastebin.com/DaSph9uT

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg5278421#msg5278421

Again, as its been said OVER and OVER in this thread:

• this is not about Karpeles "running away" with customer funds. Betting on Gox's honesty is a pretty safe bet, as Gox has proven its integrity for years
• this is about facts adding up and raising a lot of red flags: i) absurd explanations on unbelievable banking limits, which affect outgoing transfers only; ii) serious problems with LE ($6M seized) and other players (Coinlab - $6M gone) which resulted in loss of funds; iii) lack of transparency in their PR and possible incompetence in managing their business; iv) desperate moves to raise more and more fees (totally unjustified 5% "ransom fee" - 5% is a huge amount, folks; not halting trading when they have should; etc.)

When you add all that and you analyze their press releases, you can see that something very wrong is happening, and they are not being transparent with it. Despite of sturle's efforts to explain the unexplainable, the above facts remain. Anybody who works with banks on a regular basis knows that the "daily limit" is UTTER BULLSHIT, if you have some kind of limit (which normally YOU DON'T), you just adjust it to your volume - if you need to make a freaking $3M transfer, you do it and your bank charge you for it - that's their business model folks. If they aren't, that's because Gox (or their bank) is struggling with something, and that is RISKY.

Furthermore, numbers DO NOT LIE. The huge spread we have witnessed between Gox and the others comes for a reason. Sturle tried to convince us that he was making loads of money doing arbitrage, implying that the spread existed only because people is stupid and was not using the situation to their advantage because of fear, uncertainity and doubt. But let me tell you something: that's BS. Markets do not work that way. If there is a 20% arbitrage opportunity, which basically means "free money", arbitrageurs will take the opportunity and the gap will close almost instantly. If that doesn't happen, it is because it is simply not possible. I tried myself, for Christ sake, and I failed miserably because you cannot simply do arbitrage in such a volatile market if your funds are stuck on one of the ends FOR WEEKS.

Making a long story short: we are getting close to the tipping point. Will see what happens soon - but its not looking good. Anybody saying that Gox/Karpeles are thieves, etc. is just a noob or has a hidden agenda to push. But the fact remains: due to incompetence, legal pressure or whatever other reason not related to Gox's honesty, customers funds are at risk - and they have been for +10 months now. There has been plenty of time to get out, folks. In any case, now its time either to cash in huge winnings (eg. -> buying $100 coins on Gox) or to swallow a loss. Whatever happens, there has been PLENTY of information for everybody to make their choice.

[zyk]

Repost for visibility:

Today on #bitcoin

gmaxwell: wumpus: yea, I understand they had timed automatic reissues... this was also something I didn't know prior to monday before last and is one of the other reasons my "they couldn't have lost much!" position softened to "I have no freeking clue."
alpha125: gmaxwell: where did you find out abotu the automatic reissues?
gmaxwell: alpha125: from mtgox staff and magicaltux ... I had assumed previously that any reissues were manual via customer support but apparently it was just timed.
gmaxwell: you'll also note that they've kept increasing their fees and then even mad paying fees mandatory.
gmaxwell: This suggested to me that they totally misunderstood their problems. (and— I reported that I believed this months ago too)
gmaxwell: e.g. they noticed lots of txn getting stuck, they didn't understand it was because they were producing invalid txn (even though it was reported to them) and so they thought it was just 'full blocks'
gmaxwell: and they increased their fees from 0.0001 to 0.0005 — which was enough to may more than virtually every txn— and then later to 0.001 which is basically astronomic. And then they made it mandatory.
gmaxwell: of course their stalled txn had nothing to do with fees.

Edit: Just to clarify, only quoted relevant parts (maybe I should have inserted "[...]" where applicable). Full text here: http://pastebin.com/DaSph9uT

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg5278421#msg5278421

Again, as its been said OVER and OVER in this thread:

• this is not about Karpeles "running away" with customer funds. Betting on Gox's honesty is a pretty safe bet, as Gox has proven its integrity for years
• this is about facts adding up and raising a lot of red flags: i) absurd explanations on unbelievable banking limits, which affect outgoing transfers only; ii) serious problems with LE ($6M seized) and other players (Coinlab - $6M gone) which resulted in loss of funds; iii) lack of transparency in their PR and possible incompetence in managing their business; iv) desperate moves to raise more and more fees (totally unjustified 5% "ransom fee" - 5% is a huge amount, folks; not halting trading when they have should; etc.)

When you add all that and you analyze their press releases, you can see that something very wrong is happening, and they are not being transparent with it. Despite of sturle's efforts to explain the unexplainable, the above facts remain. Anybody who works with banks on a regular basis knows that the "daily limit" is UTTER BULLSHIT, if you have some kind of limit (which normally YOU DON'T), you just adjust it to your volume - if you need to make a freaking $3M transfer, you do it and your bank charge you for it - that's their business model folks. If they aren't, that's because Gox (or their bank) is struggling with something, and that is RISKY.

Furthermore, numbers DO NOT LIE. The huge spread we have witnessed between Gox and the others comes for a reason. Sturle tried to convince us that he was making loads of money doing arbitrage, implying that the spread existed only because people is stupid and was not using the situation to their advantage because of fear, uncertainity and doubt. But let me tell you something: that's BS. Markets do not work that way. If there is a 20% arbitrage opportunity, which basically means "free money", arbitrageurs will take the opportunity and the gap will close almost instantly. If that doesn't happen, it is because it is simply not possible. I tried myself, for Christ sake, and I failed miserably because you cannot simply do arbitrage in such a volatile market if your funds are stuck on one of the ends FOR WEEKS.

Making a long story short: we are getting close to the tipping point. Will see what happens soon - but its not looking good. Anybody saying that Gox/Karpeles are thieves, etc. is just a noob or has a hidden agenda to push. But the fact remains: due to incompetence, legal pressure or whatever other reason not related to Gox's honesty, customers funds are at risk - and they have been for +10 months now. There has been plenty of time to get out, folks. In any case, now its time either to cash in huge winnings (eg. -> buying $100 coins on Gox) or to swallow a loss. Whatever happens, there has been PLENTY of information for everybody to make their choice.

It makes no sense for anybody else than the thiefs themselves to sell Goxcoins for a 100 bucks as nobody than

Mark and cronies can withdraw the balance !

And please watch the volume !   

Do you really need another laywer fabricated announcement of why some force -majeure is to blame

that zilch of our funds can be retrieved  ?  OMG

[FrictionlessCoin]

Furthermore, numbers DO NOT LIE. The huge spread we have witnessed between Gox and the others comes for a reason. Sturle tried to convince us that he was making loads of money doing arbitrage, implying that the spread existed only because people is stupid and was not using the situation to their advantage because of fear, uncertainity and doubt. But let me tell you something: that's BS. Markets do not work that way. If there is a 20% arbitrage opportunity, which basically means "free money", arbitrageurs will take the opportunity and the gap will close almost instantly. If that doesn't happen, it is because it is simply not possible. I tried myself, for Christ sake, and I failed miserably because you cannot simply do arbitrage in such a volatile market if your funds are stuck on one of the ends FOR WEEKS.

I think you fail to mention that it is entirely possible for MtGox to perform the arbitrage exclusively.   Customers can't, but Mt.Gox certainly can.

Your assumption also that Mt.Gox price is based on an efficient market.  It is not, it is a manipulated market than Mt.Gox can always choose to flood the market with fake BTC.   Why would they do that?   Well... arbitrage.

[DjangoSi]

Got an answer from the Lawyer of MtGox in Poland:

Dear ***,

I have no information regarding this issue.

As far as I am concern there are no proceeding against Mt.Gox.

best regards
**

...
****

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Save a tree...please only print this e-mail if it is genuinely required

[severance26]

So oviously no panicked japanese selling GoxBTC ?

Let me hear the voices of reason to shut down the background noise :

Who´s BTC´s have been sold and are sold in ever increasing quanteties at MT. Gox at a discount of 90 % ?

No dreaming up of hoghwash can lead to another fact then:

Mt. Gox has been bankrupted intentionally and the shell is being left to the laywers !

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcjpy  (pan out to 2hr or so)

There is more selling than buying, but there is still a lot of buying. And the chart doesnt show nationality of seller, though I'd say given the advantage of selling for JPY through Gox, any Japanese person is using Gox to withdraw and not any other service (because all other services have fees and delays to transfer to Japan whereas Gox is relatively simple, currently standing at 14 business days delay).

But again, you'd expect it to be more one-sided. I'd imagine that EVERYONE's btcs are being sold at Gox, sir. Not particularly the Japanese's, beyond the fact its currently the currency with the shortest withdrawal time.

Again, as its been said OVER and OVER in this thread:

• this is not about Karpeles "running away" with customer funds. Betting on Gox's honesty is a pretty safe bet, as Gox has proven its integrity for years
• this is about facts adding up and raising a lot of red flags: i) absurd explanations on unbelievable banking limits, which affect outgoing transfers only; ii) serious problems with LE ($6M seized) and other players (Coinlab - $6M gone) which resulted in loss of funds; iii) lack of transparency in their PR and possible incompetence in managing their business; iv) desperate moves to raise more and more fees (totally unjustified 5% "ransom fee" - 5% is a huge amount, folks; not halting trading when they have should; etc.)

Furthermore, numbers DO NOT LIE. The huge spread we have witnessed between Gox and the others comes for a reason. Sturle tried to convince us that he was making loads of money doing arbitrage, implying that the spread existed only because people is stupid and was not using the situation to their advantage because of fear, uncertainity and doubt. But let me tell you something: that's BS. Markets do not work that way. If there is a 20% arbitrage opportunity, which basically means "free money", arbitrageurs will take the opportunity and the gap will close almost instantly. If that doesn't happen, it is because it is simply not possible. I tried myself, for Christ sake, and I failed miserably because you cannot simply do arbitrage in such a volatile market if your funds are stuck on one of the ends FOR WEEKS.

The banking limits aren't unbelievable- if you live in Japan. Its standard bureaucracy. And the 5% is likely not a withdrawal at all, but a fiat to fiat transfer through a regular bank which charges them for it (though there is obviously a percentage in it for them as well). And when a bank is forced to submit reports on incoming transfers over $10k USD (in the US) to regulatory agencies, they also aren't allowed to tell the customer they are doing so (this is a fact). So EVERYTHING is a delay EVERYWHERE.

Also, about the numbers not lying, you pretty much answered that yourself. The arb gap would close- except no one has the capital to close that gap and funds are stuck in limbo for weeks. I was arbing as well (but successfully unlike you apparently), but only got to do it a few times before this shitstorm came up. Que sera sera.

Furthermore, numbers DO NOT LIE. The huge spread we have witnessed between Gox and the others comes for a reason. Sturle tried to convince us that he was making loads of money doing arbitrage, implying that the spread existed only because people is stupid and was not using the situation to their advantage because of fear, uncertainity and doubt. But let me tell you something: that's BS. Markets do not work that way. If there is a 20% arbitrage opportunity, which basically means "free money", arbitrageurs will take the opportunity and the gap will close almost instantly. If that doesn't happen, it is because it is simply not possible. I tried myself, for Christ sake, and I failed miserably because you cannot simply do arbitrage in such a volatile market if your funds are stuck on one of the ends FOR WEEKS.

I think you fail to mention that it is entirely possible for MtGox to perform the arbitrage exclusively.   Customers can't, but Mt.Gox certainly can.

Your assumption also that Mt.Gox price is based on an efficient market.  It is not, it is a manipulated market than Mt.Gox can always choose to flood the market with fake BTC.   Why would they do that?   Well... arbitrage.

They can't legally arb themselves, and obviously they didn't (much?) otherwise there wouldnt be a gap. So... oh wait I just got trolled

[zyk]

Please....am talking of the selling right now !

Are you selling right now at Gox ? doing inverse arbitrage?

Sure that you are not !  Who is it then ?

only one solution to this easy question -- and that means the thiefs are fleeing the empty shell and taking as much

out as people still send there if nobody seizes their accounts .

[FrictionlessCoin]

They can't legally arb themselves, and obviously they didn't (much?) otherwise there wouldnt be a gap. So... oh wait I just got trolled

Can't legally arb themselves?  What makes you think they can't?

Wouldn't be a gap?   Of course the gap will be maintained, Mt.Gox is selling more BTC that it is actually buying.   All it needs to do is buy the real BTC and sell it on another exchange.

Mt.Gox right now is playing a very deadly game of naked short selling BTC.   What that means is that they have to cover all the BTC they sold prior to allowing any BTC withdrawals?    They can do this by raising enough cash via arbitrage....  so if they can move BTC out and Fiat back in,  they will be able to cover their positions.

I just don't know how long it will take,  but the current Mt.Gox is ideal for Gox to cover their short.

[zyk]

Fuck..there are no dump suckers who are selling real BTC there !!1  show me one who said that he did !!

As those who  are selling are no aliens (KYC)  the o9nly rational consequence is :


Those who are buying are the suckers !

Its a long con....the arbitrage profits have long been used up to perpatrate the Ponzi !

[bananas]

They are not accepting bank deposits either while other funding option are available. WTF? Frozen account?

[Rampion]

The banking limits aren't unbelievable- if you live in Japan. Its standard bureaucracy. And the 5% is likely not a withdrawal at all, but a fiat to fiat transfer through a regular bank which charges them for it (though there is obviously a percentage in it for them as well). And when a bank is forced to submit reports on incoming transfers over $10k USD (in the US) to regulatory agencies, they also aren't allowed to tell the customer they are doing so (this is a fact). So EVERYTHING is a delay EVERYWHERE.

What about SEPA withdrawals coming out from Gox's Polish bank? Why 6 weeks delay?

If reporting every transaction above $10k causes so much delay, why I can wire 50k EUR to MtGox and I get them credited in 2, 3 days max.? Why the huge delays affect only outgoing and not incoming transfers?

It doesn't add up. Other exchanges have no problems with "banking limits".

[Rampion]

On a serious note: why there isn't yet a "Hitler got his coins stuck on Gox" video? Where is Vladimir when we need him?

[FrictionlessCoin]

The banking limits aren't unbelievable- if you live in Japan. Its standard bureaucracy. And the 5% is likely not a withdrawal at all, but a fiat to fiat transfer through a regular bank which charges them for it (though there is obviously a percentage in it for them as well). And when a bank is forced to submit reports on incoming transfers over $10k USD (in the US) to regulatory agencies, they also aren't allowed to tell the customer they are doing so (this is a fact). So EVERYTHING is a delay EVERYWHERE.

What about SEPA withdrawals coming out from Gox's Polish bank? Why 6 weeks delay?

If reporting every transaction above $10k causes so much delay, why I can wire 50k EUR to MtGox and I get them credited in 2, 3 days max.? Why the huge delays affect only outgoing and not incoming transfers?

It doesn't add up. Other exchanges have no problems with "banking limits".

Because they don't have a lot of fiat?

Just like a bank that does not have their depositors money.   

However, this is different,  they don't have either the fiat or the bitcoin.  So they can't open the floodgates to allow anybody to withdraw.    No withdrawals at Mt.Gox.   You can sell BTC and fiat to each other,  but you can never withdraw!

In summary, all the BTC and fiat that's traded at Mt.Gox is mostly all fake.  It is likely only 20% of the original still exists.  That is why there is not enough dollars to buy the fake BTC that they are selling.

This situation could last a while before Mt.Gox gets it all squared away... or another exchange buys all Mt.Gox assets and customers.  That would be quite expensive if Mt.Gox has only 20% of the depositors coins and cash.

[zyk]

Depositors assets are being stolen right now in front of our very eyes !

If aliens would be selling fake BTC there, trading would be stopped.

Who then wants a cashbalance rather than BTC´s for a hundred bucks? - nobody!- but those who can quickly

withdraw the cash balance to the cayman islands    Who can obfuscate the records?  the laywers..

Why would you do that ?  Cause you know Goxbtc will be worthless in bankruptcy proceedings ---Enigma solved

[donk4u]

I don't understand why the protestors are still in front of the mt gox offices. Didn't Karpeles and company move out or are they still there ? Can someone elaborate on this? Thanks.

[zyk]

No - he is away and laughing his ass off that his bots still can sell bitcoins while he transfers cash balances whereever

he wants - hilarious this bitcoin thing.

[punkrock]

Anyone here, who got his BTC out of MT.SUX aka. MT.GOX?

Since days I only get:

Transfer queue is currently not accepting more requests, please retry later.

[smoothie]

The banking limits aren't unbelievable- if you live in Japan. Its standard bureaucracy. And the 5% is likely not a withdrawal at all, but a fiat to fiat transfer through a regular bank which charges them for it (though there is obviously a percentage in it for them as well). And when a bank is forced to submit reports on incoming transfers over $10k USD (in the US) to regulatory agencies, they also aren't allowed to tell the customer they are doing so (this is a fact). So EVERYTHING is a delay EVERYWHERE.

What about SEPA withdrawals coming out from Gox's Polish bank? Why 6 weeks delay?

If reporting every transaction above $10k causes so much delay, why I can wire 50k EUR to MtGox and I get them credited in 2, 3 days max.? Why the huge delays affect only outgoing and not incoming transfers?

It doesn't add up. Other exchanges have no problems with "banking limits".

Mtgox is the problem. They likely do not have all funds otherwise they would be able to allow fiat withdrawals in the same reasonable amount of time it takes to deposit funds with them.

A ponzi works the same way....easy to deposit funds but difficult to get funds out.

The laws of economics and finance do not change with mtgox.

[cedivad]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1yju24/psa_if_mtgox_is_really_insolvent_remember_that/

If MtGox is really insolvent remember that Peter Vessenes still has $5.3 million of it's customers money.

I've spent some time today reading most of the lawsuits that this lovely Peter Vessenes (chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation) is involved with (CoinLab, Alydian, BitInvestment).
It makes HashFast or Butterfly Labs look like child's play.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57603194-93/bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-sues-for-return-of-$5m-from-coinlab/

(just because i was downvoted to hell at reddit and it's a missing feature here )