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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 878155 times)
Rampion
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February 27, 2014, 11:19:44 AM
 #5341

I would just like to add that the writing has been on the wall for MANY months. Here some quotes from +4 months ago, which are basically big discussions with Sturle, in chronological order,:

they are heavily delaying outcoming wires, while incoming wires work just fine (ohhh... No "overwhelming" with incoming money?). Everything strongly indicates they are having liquidity problems, and that they have been forced by circumstances (seizures, Coinlab, misappropriation) to run a fractional reserve.

2+2 = 4

Gox is short of $10M and they are heavily delaying withdrawals. They make up stupid excuses such as "the old financial system cannot follow the thriving BTC economy" and "our huge volume is overwhelming the biggest bank is Japan". Still, there's no problem with the money coming in, only with the money going out.

At the same time, Bitstamp is actually handling a higher volume, and processing withdrawals quickly and smoothly.

The most plausible scenario is simply that Gox is having liquidity problems.

Quote
Defendants are informed and believe that in March and April, 2013 MtGox customers, at the
suggestion of CoinLab, deposited $12,788,701.08 into one or more CoinLab bank accounts;
CoinLab then caused the amount of such funds to be credited to such customers' MtGox
accounts but CoinLab did not transfer the actual funds into the MtGox bank account
. As a
result, such customers' MtGox account reflected a higher amount of currency funds available
to such customers than were actually in the MtGox bank account
. In April, 2013, and upon
the demand of MtGox, CoinLab transferred a portion of those amounts, $ 7,473,490.29, to the
MtGox bank account, leaving a balance of approximately $ 5,315,210.79 to be transferred to
the MtGox account and which is being wrongfully held by CoinLab.

They are admitting they have a big hole, and they do not say anywhere that they had to cover the hole with their own money (I would have stated that clearly in the official document, to wipe out doubt about insolvency - wouldn't have you?). The only hard cold fact they are stating is "such customers' MtGox account reflected a higher amount of currency funds available to such customers than were actually in the MtGox bank account".

Plus, instead of being transparent and disclosing their balances as any serious company would do after the mainstream media started to write that Gox might be insolvent (Forbes, Wired....), while many customers started to leave them for good, causing a very unhealthy spread of +10% between exchanges, they just make up absurd excuses such as "the current withdraw problems are being caused by the traditional banking system, not because of a lack of liquidity at MtGox. The traditional banking partners that MtGox needs to work with, are not able to keep up with the demands of the growing Bitcoin economy"

Really? The above seems the most plausible answer to you after all the facts Gox have been hiding and that we now know?

Finally, I'm amazed by the fact you keep repeating "they have $12M in their order book", like that is somewhat reassuring:

  • that money is just on Gox balances, it might very well not being backed by fiat in their back accounts (AS THEY ADMITTED IN THE COUNTER-SUE TO COINLAB)
  • even if that money is fully backed by existing funds in their bank, what do you want them to do with it? That is supposed to be their customers money, they are not supposed to operate/cover holes with that!!
  • I don't know if you have any experience in running a business, but it doesn't seem so: the fact is they only have $12M in the order book (again: customers money), and they admittedly have a hole of $10M. So, the hole is almost equal to the full amount of fiat they have in their order book, and roughly half of the all time high fiat amount they EVER had on their order book. That's HUGE, try to extrapolate that to Forex and tell me that covering such a hole wouldn't be a problem for them
  • Another fact is they allegedly had only an income of $8M during the 4 months of all time high usd volume EVER, and again the hole is $10M. Let me tell you that's a huge hit for a business, having a hole significantly (20%) bigger that the income you got in your best 4 months ever is a BIG problem for ANY company. When the alleged hole was "just" $5M, I thought it was bearable. Now that we discover the hole is *at least* $10M, I can't help being worried.

Occam's would say that they are running out of cash

and the reply from Sturle to my post above:

Don't bother.  Rampion is vaccinated against facts and logic.  Completely immune.   He doesn't even read this thread (or does it very selectively), just post here from time to time.

Amazed by how people still tries to cash out using MtGox.

IMO this rally may give them additional fuel, but they are on the brink of something very bad. Too many months of obvious illiquidity.

Mt Gox has redeemed itself in my eyes. I waited 3 months for an earlier regular swift withdrawal. Cancelled it and requested expedited 5% fee withdrawal instead. Today, about 2 weeks later, just like they promised, he money hit my account. 5 figure USD amount

Wow, "expedited" or "emergency" 5% withdrawal that takes between 2 weeks and 4 weeks to clear... So much for the "emergency" Cheesy

Honestly, I still think what I wrote weeks ago: the 5% fee is just a desperate attempt to make some extra money to cover Gox's losses. The BS about "the traditional banking system" not able to keep up with their volume is UTTER BS, guys I hope you know what Occam's Razor indicates here: Gox is doing fractional reserve with customers money, they have a huge hole of at least $10M and they are struggling to cover it, and that's the only reason of the huge delays in withdrawals.

Wonderful reply by Sturle to my post above:

Your mouth is big, your documentation non-existing, you are making up holes, and you fail to explain anything in a way that makes sense.

I think somebody owes an apology to the community, btw.


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Zarathustra
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February 27, 2014, 11:24:50 AM
 #5342

Seems like this Two-Bit-Idiot was hired to put an end to any plans for a possible recovery of MtGox. He kind of lets this slip on his Tumblr.

As someone who has been heavily damaged by this MtGox issue, I wish they may come with a good plan to compensate us. The guy seems to want the opposite.

Yes, he wants the opposite, because it would be bad for bitcoin if moral hazard behavior gets rewarded.

WTF!? Who gets rewarded if Gox customers get 30% of their BTCs back?

Who? Everybody who listened to sturle et al. and stored the coins there until the end.
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February 27, 2014, 11:31:07 AM
 #5343

Seems like this Two-Bit-Idiot was hired to put an end to any plans for a possible recovery of MtGox. He kind of lets this slip on his Tumblr.

As someone who has been heavily damaged by this MtGox issue, I wish they may come with a good plan to compensate us. The guy seems to want the opposite.

Yes, he wants the opposite, because it would be bad for bitcoin if moral hazard behavior gets rewarded.

WTF!? Who gets rewarded if Gox customers get 30% of their BTCs back?

Who? Everybody who listened to sturle et al. and stored the coins there until the end.

Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.

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February 27, 2014, 11:36:35 AM
 #5344

Seems like this Two-Bit-Idiot was hired to put an end to any plans for a possible recovery of MtGox. He kind of lets this slip on his Tumblr.

As someone who has been heavily damaged by this MtGox issue, I wish they may come with a good plan to compensate us. The guy seems to want the opposite.

Yes, he wants the opposite, because it would be bad for bitcoin if moral hazard behavior gets rewarded.

WTF!? Who gets rewarded if Gox customers get 30% of their BTCs back?

Who? Everybody who listened to sturle et al. and stored the coins there until the end.

Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.

And I don't give a shit about the coins which you have entrusted to those idiots. Deserves zero rewards.
Rampion
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February 27, 2014, 11:38:26 AM
 #5345


Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.


Pussy vendetta? Some long-time members of this community willingly deceived newcomers.

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February 27, 2014, 11:50:18 AM
 #5346

eMpTy GOX
How ironic...
donk4u
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February 27, 2014, 12:20:31 PM
 #5347

half of what Madoff stole was recovered? Note even close. Any proof to this wild statement?
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February 27, 2014, 12:27:21 PM
 #5348

The consensus here, as far as I can tell, seems to be that they won't ever open up any form of BTC or fiat withdrawals? All fiat deposited at Gox now will probably be used to pay Mark's legal bills?
That's why I've been arguing for putting Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy in Japan. Someone in the legal forum is gearing up to do that.

Once that happens, a court-appointed receiver takes over control of all assets. Then, with full access to all Mt. Gox records, there's more hope of finding the "missing" Bitcoins. They're somewhere. With the FBI, the Tokyo Metropolitan Police, the Chief Cabinet Secretary of Japan, and the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York all asking questions, they might well be recovered.

It took a while, but over half of what Madoff stole has been recovered.

quote about half of what madoff stole has been recoevered
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February 27, 2014, 12:48:12 PM
 #5349

The consensus here, as far as I can tell, seems to be that they won't ever open up any form of BTC or fiat withdrawals? All fiat deposited at Gox now will probably be used to pay Mark's legal bills?
That's why I've been arguing for putting Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy in Japan. Someone in the legal forum is gearing up to do that.

Once that happens, a court-appointed receiver takes over control of all assets. Then, with full access to all Mt. Gox records, there's more hope of finding the "missing" Bitcoins. They're somewhere. With the FBI, the Tokyo Metropolitan Police, the Chief Cabinet Secretary of Japan, and the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York all asking questions, they might well be recovered.

It took a while, but over half of what Madoff stole has been recovered.

quote about half of what madoff stole has been recoevered

Here's a bit of info on that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_funds_from_the_Madoff_investment_scandal

"There have been attempts for the recovery of funds from the Madoff investment scandal. Approximately $5.868 billion has been distributed to victims of Bernard Madoff through the agency of trustee Irving Picard."
"most victims will only receive roughly 34 percent of what Madoff stole, with only a handful being made whole"

We need Picard!

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February 27, 2014, 01:26:53 PM
 #5350

Seems like this Two-Bit-Idiot was hired to put an end to any plans for a possible recovery of MtGox. He kind of lets this slip on his Tumblr.

As someone who has been heavily damaged by this MtGox issue, I wish they may come with a good plan to compensate us. The guy seems to want the opposite.

Yes, he wants the opposite, because it would be bad for bitcoin if moral hazard behavior gets rewarded.

WTF!? Who gets rewarded if Gox customers get 30% of their BTCs back?

Who? Everybody who listened to sturle et al. and stored the coins there until the end.

Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.

And I don't give a shit about the coins which you have entrusted to those idiots. Deserves zero rewards.

So a random customer at MtGox was doing "moral hazard behaviour" and does deserve to "not get rewarded" therefore and get his funds back?

Thats such a utterly bullshit point of view...

I LOL'ed!
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February 27, 2014, 01:32:22 PM
 #5351


Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.


Pussy vendetta? Some long-time members of this community willingly deceived newcomers.

Thats not the point. Plz read what i was responding at.

There is no reason why the average customer at MtGox did some "moral haszard behavior" and therefore deserves to loose his funds.

Its obv another story if somebody bought Goxcoins at a later state in the story and knew the risk he was taking.
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February 27, 2014, 01:41:15 PM
 #5352


Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.


Pussy vendetta? Some long-time members of this community willingly deceived newcomers.

Thats not the point. Plz read what i was responding at.

There is no reason why the average customer at MtGox did some "moral haszard behavior" and therefore deserves to loose his funds.

Its obv another story if somebody bought Goxcoins at a later state in the story and knew the risk he was taking.

In my opinion anyone with funds on Gox knew the risks he was taking. I'll state the obvious again: the writing was on the wall.

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February 27, 2014, 01:52:19 PM
 #5353


Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.


Pussy vendetta? Some long-time members of this community willingly deceived newcomers.

Thats not the point. Plz read what i was responding at.

There is no reason why the average customer at MtGox did some "moral haszard behavior" and therefore deserves to loose his funds.

Its obv another story if somebody bought Goxcoins at a later state in the story and knew the risk he was taking.

In my opinion anyone with funds on Gox knew the risks he was taking. I'll state the obvious again: the writing was on the wall.

In my opinion none of the customers with funds on Gox deserves to loose all his funds. Why should that be so? They didnt stole those funds, did they? Neither did they harm anyone just by depositing BTCs or FIAT at the exchange. Its their money and the obv deserve to get them back.



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February 27, 2014, 01:54:00 PM
 #5354


Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.


Pussy vendetta? Some long-time members of this community willingly deceived newcomers.

Thats not the point. Plz read what i was responding at.

There is no reason why the average customer at MtGox did some "moral haszard behavior" and therefore deserves to loose his funds.

Its obv another story if somebody bought Goxcoins at a later state in the story and knew the risk he was taking.

In my opinion anyone with funds on Gox knew the risks he was taking. I'll state the obvious again: the writing was on the wall.

In my opinion none of the customers with funds on Gox deserves to loose all his funds. Why should that be so? They didnt stole those funds, did they? Neither did they harm anyone just by depositing BTCs or FIAT at the exchange. Its their money and the obv deserve to get them back.





I certainly agree with that but I don't see how those who bought "goxBTC" on bitcoinbuilder deserve less than those who just had their funds on Gox.

Everybody knew the risks.

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February 27, 2014, 02:16:52 PM
 #5355


Are you nuts? I dont give a shit about your "sturle" and your private pussy vendetta you folks in here are producing.


Pussy vendetta? Some long-time members of this community willingly deceived newcomers.

Thats not the point. Plz read what i was responding at.

There is no reason why the average customer at MtGox did some "moral haszard behavior" and therefore deserves to loose his funds.

Its obv another story if somebody bought Goxcoins at a later state in the story and knew the risk he was taking.

In my opinion anyone with funds on Gox knew the risks he was taking. I'll state the obvious again: the writing was on the wall.

In my opinion none of the customers with funds on Gox deserves to loose all his funds. Why should that be so? They didnt stole those funds, did they? Neither did they harm anyone just by depositing BTCs or FIAT at the exchange. Its their money and the obv deserve to get them back.





I certainly agree with that but I don't see how those who bought "goxBTC" on bitcoinbuilder deserve less than those who just had their funds on Gox.

Everybody knew the risks.

Being one of those who played with Bitcoinbuilder over the last days (which btw I believe was a great idea and not some part of the "plan") I think I am among the most stupid. Many who have their funds in Gox were have been in the process of trying to get them out for weeks or months.

                                                                               
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February 27, 2014, 02:18:50 PM
 #5356

a typical gox move would be getting an investor to buy up gox coins on bitcoinbuilder and sell stock for goxcoins
during that move the investor would get obligations to himself, which get wiped out, and could restart gox with low levels of debt quite cheaply
this would require the site going online again in order to get large sell volumes on builder
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February 27, 2014, 04:18:57 PM
 #5357

That's why I've been arguing for putting Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy in Japan. Someone in the legal forum is gearing up to do that.

Someone mentioned they were doing that early this week so I assumed it's why they halted trading, nobody else is talking about it though.

I was hoping they wouldn't because the funds may have been recovered in time.. instead we just have high rollers taking legal action for 30% or whatever, probably leaving nothing for the low btc peasants.
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February 27, 2014, 04:47:00 PM
 #5358

Anyone have an opinion on this?  Someone on reddit claims to have linked the 2011 Gox reserves confirmation transactions to addresses currently holding 200,000BTC
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z3cni/proofs_that_gox_have_at_least_200k_btc/
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February 27, 2014, 04:48:50 PM
 #5359

Anyone have an opinion on this?  Someone on reddit claims to have linked the 2011 Gox reserves confirmation transactions to addresses currently holding 200,000BTC
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z3cni/proofs_that_gox_have_at_least_200k_btc/

It has been a theory the recent days that they cant access their cold wallets.
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February 27, 2014, 04:53:08 PM
 #5360

a typical gox move would be getting an investor to buy up gox coins on bitcoinbuilder and sell stock for goxcoins
during that move the investor would get obligations to himself, which get wiped out, and could restart gox with low levels of debt quite cheaply
this would require the site going online again in order to get large sell volumes on builder

That would have been a nice opportunity but now everyone is knowing more and more I doubt this could be happening. Too bad because goxxed users (im one of them) could have their funds back. But it would have been very unfair - and probably illegal in most of countries to do this.


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