Off-Topic

[gbx]

More information on PayPal refunds:

Here is the closing statement I received from the rep that helped me with my case.  There's also an email address below that you can use to send your issue.   The issue is "Non-receipt of Goods".  You went beyond the 45 day window because it was a preorder of computer equipment.  The seller did ensure us that we would receive the equipment but there were delays.  Now you're over 90 days out and wish to obtain a refund before contacting your credit card company (assuming you funded your purchase by credit card).

Her name was "Mary" - number is "four zero two - nine five two - eight seven seven one"

I hope this information addresses your concerns and answers any questions you may have had.  You may contact me at "phone number above"  and I generally work Monday-Friday 7:00am to 3:30pm Central.
 
As always, please feel free to contact PayPal’s Executive Escalations Department at executiveoffice@paypal.com if you have any questions or concerns or if we can be of further assistance.

As I say, she re-filed my claim.  I had to wait 10 days for the buyer to provide tracking information (which they can't, because they never shipped).

Hope this helps someone.  Be persistent and courteous to these folks.  They can help, but don't give them a reason not to help you.

[gbx]

While I'm sure it might feel nice to have some sort of conversation regarding this or any other off topic for this thread issue, this thread is for gathering information about Terrahash.

If anyone not providing additional information about Terrahash can refrain from posting that would be great.

Agreed.  Please keep thoughts on religion and dogma to yourself or in the off-topic forum.  There's no place for that here.

What about taking the order spreadsheet (database) and using that as a base to obtain further information on who's obtained refunds, and who is still owed money.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=248143.0

It would be good to get an order of magnitude on how many people are owed refunds.  Their method of payment (including transaction information if possible).

I wonder if Cryptoin would be willing to assist with that, or hand the spreadsheet off to someone who can add a few more columns to it.

[Bargraphics]

What about taking the order spreadsheet (database) and using that as a base to obtain further information on who's obtained refunds, and who is still owed money.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=248143.0

It would be good to get an order of magnitude on how many people are owed refunds.  Their method of payment (including transaction information if possible).

I wonder if Cryptoin would be willing to assist with that, or hand the spreadsheet off to someone who can add a few more columns to it.

I have a list myself but I will not make it public unless everyone that had given me information explicitly stated they were ok with me doing so.

Not sure if Cryptoin would be available to help out
Cryptoin
Last Active:   September 07, 2013, 08:14:28 PM

Also I'm sure that most of the people that received their refund are probably away from this board as well sadly.

So far I've only heard of Credit Card and PayPal payments getting refunded from others. Most followed the repetition advice until someone escalated their claim.

[markj113]

[btceic]

/palmface /shakeshead...


TerraHash,
How do feel about Bargraphics being your spokesperson and then flip flopping around to lead the charge in a lawsuit against you? Why did you allow for so much FUD to continue during the initial phases?

Are the allegations of cloudhashing suing you true?

Do you honestly feel that you did everything you could to protect your customers from this type of scenario?

Some points to consider before accusing us of scam:
1. We stopped taking orders as soon as we had enough orders to account for the chips we ordered. If we were a scam, we would have continued taking orders and could have easily raised double the money we did.
2. We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on components, heat sinks, cases, boards, cables. For people saying that its "only a few resistors", look at the BOM provided by BkkCoins. It says components cost around $23 for a K16. And this does not include the heat sinks (~$14), boards etc. For each K16, the components including the heat sink, board, power cables, etc. cost us around $45. And we were prepared to assemble around 5,000 K16s (for 80,000 chips). There goes $250,000. Why 80,000 chips? We had ordered 40,000 of our own and had at least 4 other parties who were going to get their boards assembled from us. But guess what? Tired of the delays from Yifu, they all ended up getting a refund from Avalon.
3. We spent so much time and effort trying to source the really hard to get components. You can go read the Klondike thread where everyone is discussing the shortage of the PICs, the IR3895s, and others. But we have all the components, we even overpaid to get some of them. Show me a scammer who would do that.
4. For the components that even we could not get, we invested a lot of time to search for alternates. For example, the Power Inductor 38L361C was not available anywhere, so we instead bought SPM10040T-R36M170. But the latter was not pin compatible with the former. So we ended up changing the circuit board. I will publish the updated KiCad files. Would a scammer go through all this trouble? Anyone with half a brain can answer this.

If we were a scam, we would have disappeared on June 20th.

Why going out of business?
I am really sick and tired of all the scam accusations. I appreciate all the negative criticism that the community does, resulting in catching scams in early stages in order to protect the newer members of the community. But baseless scam accusations from day one have taken their toll on our company. The FUD spread by a few members (along with the delay from Yifu) lead to a lot of refund requests. The result of which was that, if we continued with the project, we would have been left with inventory worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in our hands. And it would have been almost impossible to sell it at a price where we could even break even. Even if nobody asked for a refund, we would still have been left with about $125,000 worth of useless components (read point 4 above). But with about half of our customers asking for a refund, we would be stuck with another $350,000 worth of inventory that we couldn't have sold for more than $150,000, putting us under red for over $300,000. I am sorry, but I am not running a charity. It made much more sense to ask for a refund from Yifu and pay back as much as possible, without going into debt.

Why only a 50% refund?
With people who paid with PayPal taking a 100% refund, it leaves a lesser share for everyone else. I am sorry, but that's how it is. We do not want to be owing hundreds of thousands to PayPal. Also, with some customers contacting our bank with fraud accusations, Chase has shut down our bank accounts. In my opinion they were just looking for an excuse. They have already contacted us in the past, asking for more information about our business, just because we were a "Bitcoin related business."

Patience is a virtue
Now, you can either be content with the turnout of the whole fiasco and stop attacking me personally, and wait for your refunds. Or, you continue accusing me of being a scammer, and continue publishing my addresses publicly and tarnishing my image. Its up to you. Some of you have already done a lot of irreparable damage, not just to me but to all the TerraHash customers. And please remember, that there is only so much that I can take. If pushed into a corner, I will defend myself.

[hchc]

Some points to consider before accusing us of scam:
1. We stopped taking orders as soon as we had enough orders to account for the chips we ordered. If we were a scam, we would have continued taking orders and could have easily raised double the money we did.
2. We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on components, heat sinks, cases, boards, cables. For people saying that its "only a few resistors", look at the BOM provided by BkkCoins. It says components cost around $23 for a K16. And this does not include the heat sinks (~$14), boards etc. For each K16, the components including the heat sink, board, power cables, etc. cost us around $45. And we were prepared to assemble around 5,000 K16s (for 80,000 chips). There goes $250,000. Why 80,000 chips? We had ordered 40,000 of our own and had at least 4 other parties who were going to get their boards assembled from us. But guess what? Tired of the delays from Yifu, they all ended up getting a refund from Avalon.
3. We spent so much time and effort trying to source the really hard to get components. You can go read the Klondike thread where everyone is discussing the shortage of the PICs, the IR3895s, and others. But we have all the components, we even overpaid to get some of them. Show me a scammer who would do that.
4. For the components that even we could not get, we invested a lot of time to search for alternates. For example, the Power Inductor 38L361C was not available anywhere, so we instead bought SPM10040T-R36M170. But the latter was not pin compatible with the former. So we ended up changing the circuit board. I will publish the updated KiCad files. Would a scammer go through all this trouble? Anyone with half a brain can answer this.

If we were a scam, we would have disappeared on June 20th.

Why going out of business?
I am really sick and tired of all the scam accusations. I appreciate all the negative criticism that the community does, resulting in catching scams in early stages in order to protect the newer members of the community. But baseless scam accusations from day one have taken their toll on our company. The FUD spread by a few members (along with the delay from Yifu) lead to a lot of refund requests. The result of which was that, if we continued with the project, we would have been left with inventory worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in our hands. And it would have been almost impossible to sell it at a price where we could even break even. Even if nobody asked for a refund, we would still have been left with about $125,000 worth of useless components (read point 4 above). But with about half of our customers asking for a refund, we would be stuck with another $350,000 worth of inventory that we couldn't have sold for more than $150,000, putting us under red for over $300,000. I am sorry, but I am not running a charity. It made much more sense to ask for a refund from Yifu and pay back as much as possible, without going into debt.

Why only a 50% refund?
With people who paid with PayPal taking a 100% refund, it leaves a lesser share for everyone else. I am sorry, but that's how it is. We do not want to be owing hundreds of thousands to PayPal. Also, with some customers contacting our bank with fraud accusations, Chase has shut down our bank accounts. In my opinion they were just looking for an excuse. They have already contacted us in the past, asking for more information about our business, just because we were a "Bitcoin related business."

Patience is a virtue
Now, you can either be content with the turnout of the whole fiasco and stop attacking me personally, and wait for your refunds. Or, you continue accusing me of being a scammer, and continue publishing my addresses publicly and tarnishing my image. Its up to you. Some of you have already done a lot of irreparable damage, not just to me but to all the TerraHash customers. And please remember, that there is only so much that I can take. If pushed into a corner, I will defend myself.

If you are not a scam, you would have sent me back the 360 chips that you have flat out stole from me.
End of story.

Or did you already made the boards and mining yourself? Not a scammer eh?

[atomicchaos]

/palmface /shakeshead...

Do you honestly feel that you did everything you could to protect your customers from this type of scenario?

Yes.

Do you think it would have been helpful to communicate a bit more sooner than this?

At this point, I'm thinking the 50% might be readily accepted by many, however it would be nice to open the books and explain how much you have on hand to liquidate and breakdown EXACTLY where the money went so all can make an informed decision.

[btceic]

/palmface /shakeshead...

Do you honestly feel that you did everything you could to protect your customers from this type of scenario?

Yes.

Do you think it would have been helpful to communicate a bit more sooner than this?

At this point, I'm thinking the 50% might be readily accepted by many, however it would be nice to open the books and explain how much you have on hand to liquidate and breakdown EXACTLY where the money went so all can make an informed decision.

Agreed, Amir or Justin (would be nice to know to whom we speak at this point), please open your books. Also how much was used for salary and other non asset non core purchases?

[hchc]

Do you think it would have been helpful to communicate a bit more sooner than this?

^this. Scammer or not, this is the main reason of your (TH) downfall (and everybody else with it).
I sent your numerous contacts and you force ppl to bring it all out on the public thread. It's your choice.

[justmyname]

Do you think it would have been helpful to communicate a bit more sooner than this?

^this. Scammer or not, this is the main reason of your (TH) downfall (and everybody else with it).
I sent your numerous contacts and you force ppl to bring it all out on the public thread. It's your choice.

Even with the Avalon chips you supplied. TH didn't bother to complete your order. So the way I see it. TH never intended to complete any of the orders in the time they estimated, if ever.

[hchc]

Do you think it would have been helpful to communicate a bit more sooner than this?

^this. Scammer or not, this is the main reason of your (TH) downfall (and everybody else with it).
I sent your numerous contacts and you force ppl to bring it all out on the public thread. It's your choice.

Even with the Avalon chips you supplied. TH didn't bother to complete your order. So the way I see it. TH never intended to complete any of the orders in the time they estimated, if ever.

And they held on to my chips seeing the chips value eroding everyday. They just want everybody else to goes down together with them.

[newguy05]

Some points to consider before accusing us of scam:

2. We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on components, heat sinks, cases, boards, cables. For people saying that its "only a few resistors", look at the BOM provided by BkkCoins. It says components cost around $23 for a K16. And this does not include the heat sinks (~$14), boards etc. For each K16, the components including the heat sink, board, power cables, etc. cost us around $45. And we were prepared to assemble around 5,000 K16s (for 80,000 chips). There goes $250,000.

This is the only point that matters, and it's bullshit.  If you did spent all that money on components, then show us the photos of those 5000 K16s.  You cant, because you never bought a fucking thing except a few test boards.

[tilecuwi]

Hey Community,

i paid my k16 with Paypal. What is the best way of getting a refund?
Pm me pls

[btceic]

Hey Community,

i paid my k16 with Paypal. What is the best way of getting a refund?
Pm me pls

If you paid via PayPal and want a refund...  LISTEN UP.

If you did not open a dispute within the 45 day window and you call PayPal... They will (9/10 times) deny you any kind of refund and say it's impossible as after 45 days their terms of service says they are not able to provide a refund.  That statement is sort of true.   If there are exceptional circumstances, PayPal WILL give you a full refund.

I got a refund from PayPal, today, for every order I placed  (If you ordered any TerraHash boards through me - you have been refunded too).

Here's how:

Call PayPal.  Get the fraud/dispute department.  Tell them you understand you are outside the 45 day window.  Tell them about TerraHash.  Tell them you and a lot of people online have been scammed by TerraHash.  Explain what TerraHash is doing and how they ave taken hundreds of thousands from PayPal users. shipped nothing, and will not reply to any contact attempts.  Ask to open a claim even if it's outside the 45 day window.   They may close your claim automatically, siding with TerraHash.  Call them back!

Especially mention the high dollar value.  Every time I dropped the amount of dollars that TerraHash took via PayPal they go get a supervisor.

If they refuse your refund, call again.  Talk to someone else.  Ask to talk to a supervisor.

If they refuse your refund, call again.  Talk to someone else.  Ask to talk to a supervisor.

I talked to a guy in the fraud department named Aaron, employee ID 45731.   He and his supervisor got my money back from TerraHash and he told me today, that he will do his best to help anyone else who can't get their money back from TerraHash.

So, PayPal tells you no?  Call again, get Aaron on the phone, tell him your story.  



If you are still within the 45 day dispute window.  Filing a dispute now will get you an extra 20 days of guaranteed refundability if TH doesn't ship, if not even more.  With no downside.   So on your 44th day, file a dispute.



TerraHash/Amir: You tried to fuck me.  The tables have now turned.

[tilecuwi]

Thanks man!

[btceic]

Thanks man!

Your welcome, please report back here your findings for everyone's benefit.

[jamie10511]

TERRORHASH IS A SCAM

The proofs

1 They never sent hchc his chips back when they had all the time in the world to do that

2 they never communicated with updates

3 besides for knightlife99 they never proved that they had any order.  also in the official thread of all orders of zefir steamboat ect terrahash was never mentioned.  i think this is the thread  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177827.0   but it used to look a bit different.

4 near the end they opened up another offer 2 petahash which was clearly a scam to raise more money


There are probably more but i cannot think of more at the moment.

I think we should get a gang of guys and get some weapons make a visit to his location in the night and seriously force that amir to refund every penny he has - now that we know his address...


the only positive thing that terrorhash ever did was to not respond to paypal claims.

They may not have originally had bad intentions but if so bernie madoff was also not a scam as he also started off legitimately but when his investments went sour greed got the better and he turned into the biggest ponzi scheme. (maybe terrorhash the biggest bitcoin scam)

knightlife also made an ebay listing that i had mentioned before.   knightlife promised people 15 btc per year for only $250. on ebay.  well how can that be honest Huh  that is like giving away $1500 for 250.  each listing on ebay was for 5 units of his miners (not one unit per listing)

see here

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bitcoin-BTC-virtual-miner-10-GH-s-/181191689905

see the writing in green


I guarantee that your rented miners will make you 15 Bitcoin or 660 Litecoin
(your choice) in 1 year from start of my mining operation for
each 5 units purchased.

this is definitely fraud.


anyway.  the newest brewing scam is coming from the one and only friedcat.  yes friedcat is honest but only while his business is doing well.  mark my words.  he is now mostly finished as he is still on gen 1 asics.  he boasts that he is going to add another 500th to the network very soon.  he is now promising what he cannot do see here    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg3222593#msg3222593    I cannot say foreshore but i have seen companies like nokia when they started going downhill and promised the world that we are going to come back and even look at blackberry's promises.  so beware about friedcat and watch his shares tank even lower.  they should be about 0.1btc now.

anyway my hands are a bit tired

oh yes of course bar's flip flop.  well he is only a human being but look even obama flip flops about syria.  first he makes a red line then promises action.  then says waiting for congress and then invites the iran prime minister.  i mean there has never been a greater flip flop than that but thats how people work in this world and they will never admit it.
anyway i hope he sold his terrorhash items see here   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=256798.0

[gbx]

Patience is a virtue
Now, you can either be content with the turnout of the whole fiasco and stop attacking me personally, and wait for your refunds. Or, you continue accusing me of being a scammer, and continue publishing my addresses publicly and tarnishing my image. Its up to you. Some of you have already done a lot of irreparable damage, not just to me but to all the TerraHash customers. And please remember, that there is only so much that I can take. If pushed into a corner, I will defend myself.

Which begs the question... where are Cloudhashing's funds?  It doesn't add up.  You have twice the amount of funds you originally anticipated because the chips were paid for twice... one via crowdsource and once via cloudhashing.

You really should put some of your own skin in this game to bridge the refund gap, or finish what you started..  bailing out now is only going to put you behind the 8 ball.  At least if you were to deliver your promised products, even extremely late, no one could cry scam.  However, a 50 percent refund is not going to satisfy anyone.

No business is exempt from risk.  and no business requires zero startup capital to scale to the levels you'd hoped.  It's just not right.

[Bargraphics]

Even if nobody asked for a refund, we would still have been left with about $125,000 worth of useless components (read point 4 above). But with about half of our customers asking for a refund, we would be stuck with another $350,000 worth of inventory that we couldn't have sold for more than $150,000, putting us under red for over $300,000. I am sorry, but I am not running a charity. It made much more sense to ask for a refund from Yifu and pay back as much as possible, without going into debt.

Yifu refund of (4) Groups would be BTC3120 - ~$396,000
(Coinbase Price is ~$127/BTC)

+ $150,000 max for selling all of the components

= $519,000 (I am assuming this is the 50% that you can refund) so there would have had to be ~$1,000,000 of pre-orders taken.

+ Since 20-25% of each order was "Profit", so it should be able to be refunded - ($200,000 - $250,000)

Also 20-25% was our average profit per order. So even with option 'b', we are willing to make 0 profit from this whole Avalon saga, just for the sake our next project and to maintain long-term credibility for our company.

= ~$750,000 should be available for refund in USD or BTC (I don't have a preference which one it is)


So with all of that, 50% is the best that can be done for all customers? It's hard to believe right now. If anyone sees anything wrong with these numbers please let me know.

I think we should get a gang of guys and get some weapons make a visit to his location in the night and seriously force that amir to refund every penny he has - now that we know his address...

This is highly inappropriate to say or suggest.

[MinermanNC]

As far as terrahsh,,a long time ago terrahash,,,I ask that all you have to do is to tell us the good the bad and the ugly,,,,even if it wasnt good news,,,and dont leave us all hanging in the dark,,but you didn't anyways,,time and time again,,that was your downfall...there were many who offered to help,even come to your office and lend time helping with support tickets etc etc,,,,,but we all heard nothing but silence week after week,,,,,and we waited and waited for some news on anything,,,,,, so you see, because of that, its really hard for us to be empathetic for you and your demise, we all know its really sucks,,,, goodluck...