ktttn
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May 31, 2013, 03:49:39 AM |
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However I am invoking Godwin's Law, in the case that a bunch of people get together and decide that the earth would be a better place by wiping out the Jews (because they thought the Jews were destroying Germany) what right would you have to tell them they're wrong?
Science that says Jews are no different from any other people, and that there is no evidence that they are destroying Germany? Hitler was a devout Christian and believed in some f'ed up prophesy and BS, so it was easy for him to believe in other ignorant and hateful things. Thus, it was easy for him to believe unsubstantiated stuff like "Jews are destroying Germany." Also, second argument, an argument against utilitarianism: Suppose you have an uncle who owns a business, and has many workers for him. Your uncle has developed a terrible disease which causes him much pain, yet he continues along with his job, instead of listening to doctors. Because of his condition he is very miserable, and so makes all his workers miserable as well. You know that once your uncle dies you will inherit a large fortune, as well as the company, so you could improve the workers' lives.
The most logical choice you decide, is to attempt to kill your uncle, after all, you empathize with his pain. If you were in such pain, a terminal illness at that, wouldn't you want an easy way out? Not only would you be improving your uncle's life, but all the workers', and as well as your's as per the inheritance.
The above would be completely moral by your view.
If death was the uncle's wish, then yes, it would be moral to help him do what he has asked for, since he owns his life and is the only one who can decide what to do with it. If you kill him despite him wanting to continue to work and live his life, then that's not moral, not by the bible's standards, and not by any other set of ethics (including atheist). Just taking this oppurtunity to clarify that Naziism is its own distinct religion, somewhat informed by norse and roman paganism, highly catholic, and entirely enamored with the state. Also to mention that Tekkna is confirmed for super batshit insane ignorebuttonbaitcorefodder. Trust me when I tell you that it is not very popular to be a Christian anymore it seems so I would not think anyone would "fake it" to "fit in."
Are you fucking kidding me?! You only have something like 80% of the US population, all the prior and current presidents, 98% of the politicians, most of the news reporters, most of the school teachers and administrators... This country is steeped in religion/Christianity. Christmas decorations go up in October, all the religious holidays are very overtly celebrated, it's unthinkable for the president to not do any prayer or religious type of ceremony, those who point out that religious icons on public property are unconstitutional get persecuted and receive death threats... Atheists are the ones who are not very popular. Watch any news reporter interviewing an atheist. It's as if they are interviewing some weirdo with cancer. Thank you. All of my +1. I lold audibly. Wishing we could all hear the alarmlike sound that actually just came from my mouth.
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Wit all my solidarities, -ktttn Ever see a gutterpunk spanging for cryptocoins? LfkJXVy8DanHm6aKegnmzvY8ZJuw8Dp4Qc
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justusranvier
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May 31, 2013, 04:11:48 AM |
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I think most people have a difficult and painful childhood. I'm pretty sure most end up healing without the help of a religion. I know I didn't need it. On the contrary, I only started to heal when I realized it was a crutch that I didn't need, and that was used to beat me down. Rejecting god, and then coming to realize that it's all nothing but a fairy tale was the best thing that has ever happened to me, and I have been happy ever since!
Religion was invented to justify and legitimize child abuse. God is nothing more than the ultimate hypocritical, petty, narcissistic, abusive parent. Bad parents like to hold their children accountable to rules they violate with impunity themselves, so they invented an imaginary being who does the same thing and then tell their children that kind of behavior represents the highest moral good. He also serves as a convenient scapegoat: "It's not that I'm just an immature asshole who likes to punish people smaller than myself because I can - the divine creator of universe and the source of all that is good told me to do it!"
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BitChick
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May 31, 2013, 04:56:47 AM Last edit: May 31, 2013, 05:30:41 AM by BitChick |
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Neurobox and BitChick are both badass intelligent rockstars IMO. Sort of. K I'll give them head n shoulders above most theists. Christians can be great people sometimes. That post was directed at the whole thread. I still have a monsterous, overwhelming frustration with ABC) in my last post, and hope some of the assertions take root as true somewhere subcon. That hope doesn't detract from how much I appreciate the hell out of those two people's semi faned consideration.
Thanks Ktttn. This means alot. Seriously. It is cool to be able to debate in a healthy respectful way. Hopefully I am able to. Sometimes I probably say things that tick people off, but I really am not trying to.
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BitChick
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May 31, 2013, 05:04:51 AM |
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Trust me when I tell you that it is not very popular to be a Christian anymore it seems so I would not think anyone would "fake it" to "fit in."
Are you fucking kidding me?! You only have something like 80% of the US population, all the prior and current presidents, 98% of the politicians, most of the news reporters, most of the school teachers and administrators... This country is steeped in religion/Christianity. Christmas decorations go up in October, all the religious holidays are very overtly celebrated, it's unthinkable for the president to not do any prayer or religious type of ceremony, those who point out that religious icons on public property are unconstitutional get persecuted and receive death threats... Atheists are the ones who are not very popular. Watch any news reporter interviewing an atheist. It's as if they are interviewing some weirdo with cancer. Perhaps you are right. I guess my feeling is that many people call themselves Christian in this country but just because they say they are does not mean they actually live it like they should so I often questions those numbers. That said, I do feel like there is a movement towards Christianity being less accepted, or popular, in our society than it used to be. This is my own perception of course.
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ktttn
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May 31, 2013, 05:07:46 AM |
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Good cop / bad cop? Am I imagining things or can this work?
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Wit all my solidarities, -ktttn Ever see a gutterpunk spanging for cryptocoins? LfkJXVy8DanHm6aKegnmzvY8ZJuw8Dp4Qc
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BitChick
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May 31, 2013, 05:19:41 AM |
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I questioned why he had allowed me to go through some horrible things as a very young child. One day I cried out to Him for help and he showed me that he pained by the abuse too.
If he ever tells you why he allowed for your abuse to happen despite it paining him, and what his plan with all that was, please let us know. Good question. I think the fact that I felt God show me that He was sad about the abuse was enough for me to understand that even though I might be hurt by people in this life, God really does care. Could God have intervened and kept the guy from abusing me? I question that and I still often why He did not do that at the time. But perhaps He was giving the guy a chance to repent of his sins? God is patient, more so than I will ever be. He gives us all the ability to choose each day if we are going to love or hurt each other. It is out gift of "free will" and we abuse it sometimes in the choices we make. In spite of that I have learned many things through the experience. I have been able to help others that have gone through similar things. I have a faith that is strengthened because I know that God will help me through anything I have to go through. I had a pastor once say, "This life is the closest to hell we will ever be." That is comforting a strange way. I know that could start a whole different debate on hell. But as a Christian, with my world view, it makes sense to me that we are going to suffer on this earth but it is a short lived time when thinking of Eternity.
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neurobox
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Getting too old for all this.
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May 31, 2013, 05:19:58 AM |
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I was a post-atheist, progressive, Taoist, channelling, divining, manifesting OOB junky and was delivered in one day.
If you were a Taoist, channeling, divining, and manifesting (no idea what OOB is), then you were never an atheist. You simply exchanged one brand of bullshit for another. Not how I see it, but fair enough, you kinda had to be there. I'm confident that if I could write a long enough book I could demonstrate just how seemingly logical of a progression it was. That stuff is a lie, but also just real enough to be incredibly dangerous. ktttn, I'll prayerfully ponder whether there's anything more I can say or do to express the deepest sense of truth and joy I've found in Christ, hoping to maybe somehow kindle your hope. AB&C are the textbook hangups for satanists, but you're likewise one of the least abrasive and most grounded ones I've encountered. Not to flatter, but its true. And I'm no intellectual rockstar (you should meet my pastor), just walked enough hot coals to appreciate the soothing water I find holding me up as I walk with my saviour. Also I find nothing patriarchal in that I am a part of the bride of Christ.
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Tekkna
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May 31, 2013, 05:40:13 AM |
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Ok, just typed up a post, and lost it ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) Here goes again: I have no doubt that Hitler wanted to seem Christian, but actions speak louder than words. But, in case that's not enough, here's some words too: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. Moral relativism: The uncle wishes to continue the rest of his (2 year) life in pain, while making everyone miserable at the same time. Is it morally wrong to kill him, and on what basis? Religion was invented to justify and legitimize child abuse. Child abuse does not need religion to continue, the bible certainly does not legitimize child abuse in any way.
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ktttn
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May 31, 2013, 06:14:22 AM |
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I questioned why he had allowed me to go through some horrible things as a very young child. One day I cried out to Him for help and he showed me that he pained by the abuse too.
If he ever tells you why he allowed for your abuse to happen despite it paining him, and what his plan with all that was, please let us know. Good question. I think the fact that I felt God WAIT... WAIT! NOW HOLDYERHORSES SLOW DOWN TH- show me that He was sad
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Wit all my solidarities, -ktttn Ever see a gutterpunk spanging for cryptocoins? LfkJXVy8DanHm6aKegnmzvY8ZJuw8Dp4Qc
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ktttn
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May 31, 2013, 06:22:27 AM |
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I was a post-atheist, progressive, Taoist, channelling, divining, manifesting OOB junky and was delivered in one day.
If you were a Taoist, channeling, divining, and manifesting (no idea what OOB is), then you were never an atheist. You simply exchanged one brand of bullshit for another. Not how I see it, but fair enough, you kinda had to be there. I'm confident that if I could write a long enough book I could demonstrate just how seemingly logical of a progression it was. That stuff is a lie, but also just real enough to be incredibly dangerous. ktttn, I'll prayerfully ponder whether there's anything more I can say or do to express the deepest sense of truth and joy I've found in Christ, hoping to maybe somehow kindle your hope. AB&C are the textbook hangups for satanists, but you're likewise one of the least abrasive and most grounded ones I've encountered. Not to flatter, but its true. And I'm no intellectual rockstar (you should meet my pastor), just walked enough hot coals to appreciate the soothing water I find holding me up as I walk with my saviour. Also I find nothing patriarchal in that I am a part of the bride of Christ. I need to be more abraisive. My attempts to scrub the jesus off you haven't succeeded yet. More fucking cursewords? Bigger flames? EDIT: I will consentually mouthfuck your pastor with my 14" studded strap-on until he quits his job and becomes a buddhist monk. Christian nuttery is more dangerous than Taoism or manifestig. You need to re read some marx dawkins or lavey, or at least a list of atheists.
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Wit all my solidarities, -ktttn Ever see a gutterpunk spanging for cryptocoins? LfkJXVy8DanHm6aKegnmzvY8ZJuw8Dp4Qc
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Akka
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May 31, 2013, 11:49:57 AM |
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I have no doubt that Hitler wanted to seem Christian, but actions speak louder than words. But, in case that's not enough, here's some words too: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews." WTF. What has this to do with anything? In case you are trying to say that Hitler was an atheist, even if he was. So what? Atheist are not a group. Unless you are trying to say not belonging to a group makes you a group as well. Hitler also didn't collect post stamps, so that not post stamp collectors hobbies is a really bad thing, or what? In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools.
Now you are just making stuff up. And religions indoctrination, no matter which, should have no say in schools anyway. The bible belongs in schools the same as the necronomicon. Personal believe system (personal choice) are not something that should be teached by using state funds.
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KeyserSoze
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May 31, 2013, 12:54:23 PM |
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Religion as well as science are based in reason. The truth stands out clearly from falsehood.
You are confused. Religion is the absence of reason.
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I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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KeyserSoze
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May 31, 2013, 01:21:39 PM |
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Where does our sense of compassion come from?
Evolved social empathy. Also, I use the Bible as my moral compass as well when my own selfish desires get in the way of what really is the right thing to do.
I don't want it to appear I'm picking on you. I'm just replying to what you post. However, you most certainly do NOT use the bible as a moral compass. It plainly tells you not to seek wealth, yet you've admitted to investing in bitcoin to make money. I hope you make a killing, but your god doesn't. I'm just curious why you say one thing and do another. It seems to be a common trait among the religious, who also claim their book of rules is "absolute". Curious, indeed. The Bible says "There is a way that seems right to a man but it leads to death." That is why I need to read the Bible and make sure I am not just making up my own ideas of what right an wrong are.
The bible also says not to wear clothing of mixed fabrics such as wool and linen. The bible says it is OK to sell one's own children into slavery. The bible says women who are raped must marry the rapist. Are these also incorporated into your "moral compass"? The more I listen to Him, the more compassionate I can become. The more loving I can be. The more I can care about others, regardless of their beliefs, be it atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. I don't have to agree with people that think differently than I do, but I need to love them and try to show them that God loves them too. The difficulty is that in "loving" them, I often feel a compelling sense of showing them that they are on a destructive path.
The problem of course is that religious people don't stop at simply "showing us we're on a destructive path." The next move is to legislate and the next to war over these values. Religion feigns love while seeking totalitarianism. So it is a problem for sure. How to love without offending. How to care without coming across as pushy, arrogant? Should we just let others choose their own path without doing anything at all? It seems that is what most people want us to do. "Live and let live." But is that the "moral" thing? Is that the right thing?
It is incredibly annoying to have religious proselytizing however I have more respect for those who do. If one is going to claim to live by a book of rules then one should do so, and proselytizing is advised your particular rule book. But so is wearing a cover over one's head (females only of course) - do you follow this law or ignore your god's commands here as well?
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I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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KeyserSoze
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May 31, 2013, 01:33:10 PM |
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Now, if you're referring to Bush putting the US in Iraq, I don't know any Christians that honestly thought that was a good idea. It really didn't follow with 9/11, it seemed to follow Bush Sr. At any rate, they say that the chemical WMDs that had been there ended up in Syria (which fits), so it might not have been completely baseless.
If you had any credibility before now, it's gone... Bush said, "This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usaThere are many articles about the rise of Christian fundamentalism in the U.S. military. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/newsroom/fundamentalist_religion_rampant_in_u.s._armed_forces_says_national_security/https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/fundamentalist-forces-new-report-highlights-ongoing-church-state-problemshttp://www.globalresearch.ca/christian-fundamentalism-as-a-instrument-of-us-military-doctrine/8171
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I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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KeyserSoze
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May 31, 2013, 01:53:31 PM |
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bible says that in the last of times we will live in a world domined by just one "country" that will be the New World Order, they will use things like the micro chip in your hand or your head for use medical supply "the mark of the beast" and we will have just one wolrd wide currency. Believe what you want.
The bible also says: "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." Deuteronomy 25:11-12 This medieval goat herder's social primer has no place in the modern world. It served a purpose for a time but is now worthless. Move on.
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I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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BitChick
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May 31, 2013, 02:03:36 PM |
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I questioned why he had allowed me to go through some horrible things as a very young child. One day I cried out to Him for help and he showed me that he pained by the abuse too.
If he ever tells you why he allowed for your abuse to happen despite it paining him, and what his plan with all that was, please let us know. Good question. I think the fact that I felt God WAIT... WAIT! NOW HOLDYERHORSES SLOW DOWN TH- show me that He was sad
OK, OK. You are right. Using "fact" was a poor choice of words on my part. My bad! In a scientific way there is no way to say that it was a "fact." I guess it is just that having had a heart enraged with hate and anger for my abuser being changed to one where I literally cried tears of compassion for him and prayed for him instead felt like a miraculous "fact" in my life. I think that is why we can get into heated arguments over these things. It feels like a fact to me based on how I have changed.
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KeyserSoze
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May 31, 2013, 02:07:20 PM |
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Just like one can believe in Christ, but not obey him. We see a lot of that. To paraphrase: "Even Satan and his demons believe, and they tremble."
Since your god has not yet destroyed your boogeyman, he either cannot or doesn't want to, or theoretically plans quite publicly to do so when Revelation says he will. There is no reason for satan to fear anything until the well-publicized event takes place. Satan, if he existed, would be perceptive enough to understand this, as should most anyone of even average intelligence. There is no trembling in hell, only non-stop keg parties and great rock concerts.
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I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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KeyserSoze
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May 31, 2013, 02:17:08 PM |
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Or, "you err, knowing not the scriptures, nor the power of God."
Ah, the ever-faithful and often used christian fallback. "You don't understand the bible" or "You're using the wrong translation". It covers a whole lot of delusion for you without you needing to fire nary a brain cell. Atheists understand your bible and your god delusion. It is why we are atheists, and why we need to constantly inform christians of the passages in their own book of rules. "Atheists: Teaching Christians The Bible, Since 325AD"
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I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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BitChick
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May 31, 2013, 02:22:12 PM |
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Also, I use the Bible as my moral compass as well when my own selfish desires get in the way of what really is the right thing to do.
I don't want it to appear I'm picking on you. I'm just replying to what you post. However, you most certainly do NOT use the bible as a moral compass. It plainly tells you not to seek wealth, yet you've admitted to investing in bitcoin to make money. I hope you make a killing, but your god doesn't. I'm just curious why you say one thing and do another. It seems to be a common trait among the religious, who also claim their book of rules is "absolute". Curious, indeed. This will sound weird to you but after praying about it, we felt like God wanted us to invest in Bitcoin. Still not sure why. We have not really made much yet (A little but we bought in when it was on the rise and our average price is about $120 for the relatively small amount we have), but maybe God wanted us to buy just so I would log in to this message board and share with someone on here my story? Who knows really. So, I disagree with you in that. The Bible is my compass. God is my pilot. I try as best as I can to listen to Him. I don't always do as good of a job of doing that as I should, unfortunately. He is patient with me, thankfully. I still do not understand why you think God does not want us to be wealthy? Greed is bad. Selfishness is bad. But there were many wealthy people in the Bible that did great things. So I just don't get it. That said, as for your posts about the Old Testament rules, such as clothing, marrying a rapist, etc. I sometimes wonder about those things too. I just know that culturally women were treated as property back then. If a women was no longer a virgin, she was not allowed to marry (She was considered used property) so perhaps it was God intervening to cause her to at least have a family? Perhaps a merciful action based on the cruel society that they were living in at the time? I am just speculating here. As a woman I should be thanking God that I was not born during that time in history! And God had rules to set the Israelites apart from others at the time. There was the laws on the clothing, the food (kosher) and various other things some of which was can analyze that there was some benefit, but others might make us scratch our heads and wonder.
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KeyserSoze
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May 31, 2013, 02:32:45 PM |
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How does one know what truth really is?
A good start would be to ignore any religious text except the rule that is at the heart of them all, to treat others the way you want to be treated. From there, understand that through science most truths of our shared reality can be measured. Or disregard that and just repeat, "Gawd musta dun did it!" any time you have trouble understanding something. We are in a world that is getting to a point where there is almost no belief in absolute truth at all. Everything is becoming more relative.
Can you imagine why that may be the case, knowing that human understanding of the universe continually increases? I personally believe in absolute truth and that my foundation is the Bible.
The universe doesn't care what you believe. You either are seeking measurable truths about it or chalking it up to magic. Also, it is wrong to try to shelter myself, or my children, from things that are not wholesome?
If you're going to keep unwholesome things away from children be sure to keep the bible ata safe distance. It's filled with wanton violence, cruelty, war, dismemberment, rape and sodomy. You may want to let them turn 18 before letting them out of their cages, just to be safe.
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I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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