Religious beliefs on bitcoin

[neurobox]

If you see the world so objectively that there is no spirit or soul or super-anything, two things occur:
1. You decide that those who see more than you can measure are certifiable
2. You miss your only shot at encountering that which validates their testimony

Really the number one misunderstanding we have is simple. God as Christians know god is "supernatural" beyond any rationalization. They have to accept that, as there is no Christ without the resurrection and vise-versa. At first we can only take the gospel on faith alone. Some, having done so, have grown and encountered God in undeniable ways. One textbook Christian life might be mundane, another swimming in the miraculous. You only hear "self-deception," but in my experience it is the opposite.

This puts us in the difficult position of trying to explain these things to people that have not encountered either condition, and who won't unless they can admit they're imperfect like everyone else and give in to the grace that's being offered. The funny thing about sin is that you can't stop. It's a mystery, but trying to be perfect is like holding your breathe. Who among us is blameless?

If you want a religion that's all about controlling people, look at Islam. If you want one that you can define for yourself, look almost anywhere. Is it really so hard to suppose that one eternal soul could be born among men, and lay down his mortal life that others might have eternal life, even if they don't deserve it?

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[crumbcake]

... If you want a religion that's all about controlling people, look at Islam. ...

I don't particularly care what you believe, but unless your intent is a simple "fuck you everyone!1," you probably should ease up on the bigotry.  Not because it's wrong, but because it's counterproductive.  You certainly won't win over any converts.  Worse, you give credence to simpleminded notions like "Christians are ignorant, bigoted hicks!" 

TL;DR: Islam is as much "about controlling people" as Christianity, and the same rhetoric is used by the ignorant against both.

[neurobox]

... If you want a religion that's all about controlling people, look at Islam. ...

I don't particularly care what you believe, but unless your intent is a simple "fuck you everyone!1," you probably should ease up on the bigotry.  Not because it's wrong, but because it's counterproductive.  You certainly won't win over any converts.  Worse, you give credence to simpleminded notions like "Christians are ignorant, bigoted hicks!"  

TL;DR: Islam is as much "about controlling people" as Christianity, and the same rhetoric is used by the ignorant against both.

No religion other than Islam kills those who leave it, no matter how you spin it. Ignoring the problem makes it worse.

"If they [Muslims] had gotten rid of the punishment for apostasy, Islam would not exist today"
 -Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the Muslim Brotherhood

[crumbcake]

... If you want a religion that's all about controlling people, look at Islam. ...

I don't particularly care what you believe, but unless your intent is a simple "fuck you everyone!1," you probably should ease up on the bigotry.  Not because it's wrong, but because it's counterproductive.  You certainly won't win over any converts.  Worse, you give credence to simpleminded notions like "Christians are ignorant, bigoted hicks!"  

TL;DR: Islam is as much "about controlling people" as Christianity, and the same rhetoric is used by the ignorant against both.

No religion other than Islam kills those who leave it, no matter how you spin it. Ignoring the problem makes it worse.

"If they [Muslims] had gotten rid of the punishment for apostasy, Islam would not exist today"
 -Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the Muslim Brotherhood

Do you *really* want to go there?

The Bible prescribes the death penalty for the following activities, among others:
Murder[13]
Adultery[13]
Bestiality[14]
Rape [15]
Sodomy [16]
One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known. The LORD told Moses that the man in custody must be killed. This particular crime and punishment is isolated case law. (Numbers 15:32–36)
A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped[17]
A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding[18]
Worshiping other gods[19][20]
Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18)
Taking the LORD's name in vain or cursing his name[21]
Cursing a parent[22][23][24]
Kidnapping[25]  -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and_punishment_in_the_Bible

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_crimes_in_the_Bible

[neurobox]

No religion other than Islam kills those who leave it, no matter how you spin it. Ignoring the problem makes it worse.

"If they [Muslims] had gotten rid of the punishment for apostasy, Islam would not exist today"
 -Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the Muslim Brotherhood

1. Qaradawi is NOT the head of the Brotherhood

2. There is no death penalty for apostasy in the Qur'an

1. Not official, but most influential leader - Wiki:

Al-Qaradawi has published more than 120 books, including The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam and Islam: The Future Civilization. He has also received eight international prizes for his contributions to Islamic scholarship, and is considered one of the most influential such scholars living today. Al-Qaradawi has long had a prominent role within the intellectual leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian political organization, but twice (in 1976 and 2004) turned down offers for the official role in the organization.

2. I didn't say there was. That doesn't mean people won't arrive at that directive on their own, or based on the most common doctrinal texts.

Surah 5:33 says:  “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle… is that they should be murdered or crucified.”  According to Abi Kulaba’s narration, this verse means the apostates.

And many hadiths, not only one or two, but many, narrated by a number of Muhammad’s companions, state that any apostate should be killed.

Ibn’ Abbas’s Hadith: “Kill whomever changes his faith from Islam”.

Ibn Mus’ud Hadith:  “Kill these three criminals: the adulterer, the murderer, and the apostate that leaves our community.”

That is in addition to a big number of other narrations, by other companions, about apostasy.

...

Do you *really* want to go there?

The Bible prescribes the death penalty for the following activities, among others:
Murder[13]
Adultery[13]
Bestiality[14]
Rape [15]
Sodomy [16]
One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known. The LORD told Moses that the man in custody must be killed. This particular crime and punishment is isolated case law. (Numbers 15:32–36)
A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped[17]
A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding[18]
Worshiping other gods[19][20]
Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18)
Taking the LORD's name in vain or cursing his name[21]
Cursing a parent[22][23][24]
Kidnapping[25]  -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and_punishment_in_the_Bible

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_crimes_in_the_Bible

You're talking about early Judaism, not present Jesusism:

Mat 6:14 NIV - For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Mark 11:25 NIV - And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Mat 9:6 NIV - But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home."

Luke 6:37 NIV - "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

This leaves most matters of justice to their natural consequences, the law of the land, etc. This is also why I don't go around trying to offend people that don't appreciate my position. I understand that I've not walked in your shoes, nor you in mine.

"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

"...because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

[crumbcake]

Don't debase what you claim to hold holy with petty pedantry.  It's enough to say that Christ did not come to destroy the [old] law, but to uphold it, and the wages of sin is still death. 
I'll give you a pretty Shakespeare quote instead, no need to quote back:

The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart:
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

Purty, no? (and no, it's not from memory, but Google's gotten pretty good at turning half-remembered quotes into exact ones )

[ktttn]

That sounds like something that fell under Levitical law.

I'm not sure what the goal was there, but it was probably both to force the man to live with the outcome and stigma of his actions, and most importantly to make sure that the woman and child would be looked after in the ensuing struggle. The society was already patriarchal, so to phrase it in terms of the woman being in control might not have been as well received. That doesn't mean that anyone would necessarily force the issue if she was unwilling. Many of the laws around menstruation had the welcome effect of protecting women, but you might not guess from how they are phrased.

Divorce, for instance, was instituted by Moses because at the time men would marry, and remarry, and remarry, but the women were still considered "his." As Jesus put it, Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts, but neither practice was ever the way it was meant to be from the beginning.

Our hearts are not wired for our present casual way of thinking about sex, intimacy and relationships. You can only know the joy of complete intimacy joined with complete commitment in two ways: ideal marriage, and an ideal relationship with God, who knows your heart more intimately than you do. One of these relationship is possible, the other is meant to be an image of the other, and can be, but it requires a Christlike degree of patience.

For now, we see through a glass darkly, but we know God is far more concerned with sustaining the eternal things within us than with the perishing things of the world.

This is clearly not the post of a woman, or someone who has any appreciation for what it is to be raped, or someone who is even informed about todays nearly unaltered immoral christ worship wifebeating practices.
I must give you enough credit to assume you regret writing most of this offensive apologetic doubletalk.

[neurobox]

the hadith is like the bible , you can cherry pick what to follow / believe in the hadith , however Qur'an you cannot cherry pick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51KeWJQ8wlc or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFz6zYgQ250
--
Jesus in Islam and Christianity – Lord Rowan Williams and Paul Williams - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uPhc-ItF8

Paul Williams suggests that Jesus was only a prophet with a messianic message. Wrongly.

His message was unmistakably, "I AM the way the truth and the life."

The quran also un-deifies Christ, repeatedly smearing believers as polytheists (which perpetuates a fundamental misunderstanding of the trinity). It offers Christians NOTHING but incoherent lip service to the gospel. http://quran.com/search?q=polytheists

[Tekkna]

You're not even listening to what I'm posting, I'm not saying he was a "bad" Christian, I'm saying he did not even believe in Christianity at all.

Evidence shows he was Christian whether you think he was "true" or not. He was a member of the Catholic church until his death, and neither of us will ever know if asked for forgiveness before death, which is all that's required to get right back into heaven's queue.

I agree there's plenty of cause for debate over his personal views on religion and I understand why religious folks would shun such a member of their camp. Perhaps you simply shouldn't have brought him up in the first place?

Ok, here are the points you make:
1. He was a member of a church
2. He could have asked for forgiveness before he died

As to 1, belonging to a church does not make you Christian, and as to 2 while he certainly could have asked for forgiveness before he died, he would have only been Christian for the remainder of his life, when, ironically he would have then committed suicide.

I shun him as a member of my "camp" for a very obvious reason, he was not Christian, and only attempted to look Christian out in public to gain acceptance. When you look at quotes from his personal life, it becomes quite clear that he was no Christian.

Actually, it was you who brought up Hitler being Christian. So, perhaps you should not have brought it up in the first place.

[neurobox]

That sounds like something that fell under Levitical law.

I'm not sure what the goal was there, but it was probably both to force the man to live with the outcome and stigma of his actions, and most importantly to make sure that the woman and child would be looked after in the ensuing struggle. The society was already patriarchal, so to phrase it in terms of the woman being in control might not have been as well received. That doesn't mean that anyone would necessarily force the issue if she was unwilling. Many of the laws around menstruation had the welcome effect of protecting women, but you might not guess from how they are phrased.

Divorce, for instance, was instituted by Moses because at the time men would marry, and remarry, and remarry, but the women were still considered "his." As Jesus put it, Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts, but neither practice was ever the way it was meant to be from the beginning.

Our hearts are not wired for our present casual way of thinking about sex, intimacy and relationships. You can only know the joy of complete intimacy joined with complete commitment in two ways: ideal marriage, and an ideal relationship with God, who knows your heart more intimately than you do. One of these relationship is possible, the other is meant to be an image of the other, and can be, but it requires a Christlike degree of patience.

For now, we see through a glass darkly, but we know God is far more concerned with sustaining the eternal things within us than with the perishing things of the world.

This is clearly not the post of a woman, or someone who has any appreciation for what it is to be raped, or someone who is even informed about todays nearly unaltered immoral christ worship wifebeating practices.
I must give you enough credit to assume you regret writing most of this offensive apologetic doubletalk.

Not to be antagonistic, but I am confused how such subtleties offend you, when you hold human life no more sacred than a slo-mo youtube video or a plant...

In fact, what I wrote reflects the position of a Christian woman I know and love, who is not ignorant of such hardships. If it didn't, I wouldn't have been so presumptuous as to say it.

[Tekkna]

Also, as to China becoming increasingly Christian, I doubt it is a materialistic Christianity. Many Chinese believers are being tortured and put into jail for their beliefs by the Athiestic Chinese government.

[Mike Christ]

I wonder if anyone was guessing way back when that their novels would become so incredibly popular, people would still have debates about them the world over, two millennia later, let alone live their entire lives according to them and for one, or often more than one, character.

[ktttn]

That sounds like something that fell under Levitical law.

I'm not sure what the goal was there, but it was probably both to force the man to live with the outcome and stigma of his actions, and most importantly to make sure that the woman and child would be looked after in the ensuing struggle. The society was already patriarchal, so to phrase it in terms of the woman being in control might not have been as well received. That doesn't mean that anyone would necessarily force the issue if she was unwilling. Many of the laws around menstruation had the welcome effect of protecting women, but you might not guess from how they are phrased.

Divorce, for instance, was instituted by Moses because at the time men would marry, and remarry, and remarry, but the women were still considered "his." As Jesus put it, Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts, but neither practice was ever the way it was meant to be from the beginning.

Our hearts are not wired for our present casual way of thinking about sex, intimacy and relationships. You can only know the joy of complete intimacy joined with complete commitment in two ways: ideal marriage, and an ideal relationship with God, who knows your heart more intimately than you do. One of these relationship is possible, the other is meant to be an image of the other, and can be, but it requires a Christlike degree of patience.

For now, we see through a glass darkly, but we know God is far more concerned with sustaining the eternal things within us than with the perishing things of the world.

This is clearly not the post of a woman, or someone who has any appreciation for what it is to be raped, or someone who is even informed about todays nearly unaltered immoral christ worship wifebeating practices.
I must give you enough credit to assume you regret writing most of this offensive apologetic doubletalk.

Not to be antagonistic, but I am confused how such subtleties offend you, when you hold human life no more sacred than a slo-mo youtube video or a plant...

In fact, what I wrote reflects the position of a Christian woman I know and love, who is not ignorant of such hardships. If it didn't, I wouldn't have been so presumptuous as to say it.

A) You dont know how those things stack up relative sacredness in my head.
B) You don't get to put words in her mouth.
beginningtoseeapattern.pdf

[neurobox]

1. My mistake, it was the two-horned one. Should have googled it first. Mohammed was telling the story.

http://quran.com/search?q=sun+water

Apparently there are a number of efforts to reinterpret this passage. Your meeting-place version is new to me.

Sahih Intl (with context):
Indeed We established him upon the earth, and We gave him to everything a way.
So he followed a way
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

Muhsin Khan:
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

Pickthall:
Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Yusuf Ali:
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

If you meet at sunset, and report that the sun went down, that makes sense. If you meet at sunset and report that you found it in a pool of mud or water surrounded by people, that is a little bit more difficult to understand. Perhaps the "report" was figurative?

The Bible's got a few tricky ones too, I'll admit, virgin birth, healings, resurrection, and all. They're all unlikely bad science as far as a godless world is concerned.

The important thing I want to convey is that Jesus' message throughout the gospels is NOT the message that Islam says it is, and his glorification is not polytheism as the Quran insists. His claims to be the son of God (yet one with God) were consistent throughout the gospels. If there's anything in the Islam that I would have you question, that is it. You'd have to discard more than half of what he said, in statements echoed through many writers in the early church.

[Rassah]

however the changes are normally so small and un-noticeable that they are easily identified.

Can you rephrase that please?

[Rassah]

Really the number one misunderstanding we have is simple. God as Christians know god is "supernatural" beyond any rationalization. They have to accept that, as there is no Christ without the resurrection and vise-versa. At first we can only take the gospel on faith alone. Some, having done so, have grown and encountered God in undeniable ways. One textbook Christian life might be mundane, another swimming in the miraculous. You only hear "self-deception," but in my experience it is the opposite.

This puts us in the difficult position of trying to explain these things to people that have not encountered either condition, and who won't unless they can admit they're imperfect like everyone else and give in to the grace that's being offered.

When i was a child, I believed in ghosts, monsters, and Santa Claus, all things supernatural. When I was a little older, I believed in god and Jesus. So I do understand your explanation of these things fully, since I have experienced all those things personally. It's just that eventually I've come to understand it as nothing more than mass delusion, self deception, and peer pressure. All atheists who used to be Christians had the same experiences and realizations. So it's not you who knows or sees something that atheists don't, it's the atheists who have seen the same thing you have, who now know something you don't.

[ktttn]

Apparently there are a number of efforts to reinterpret this passage. Your meeting-place version is new to me.

You can read the verse in arabic , Qur'an is only authentic in arabic

here Dr Zakir Naik explains better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8R2rVgD2ok (a debate with Dr William Campbell , the issue 'sun setting in murky water' came up)

+1
I thought discussions of the Koran can't be properly had in this language.

[neurobox]

Really the number one misunderstanding we have is simple. God as Christians know god is "supernatural" beyond any rationalization. They have to accept that, as there is no Christ without the resurrection and vise-versa. At first we can only take the gospel on faith alone. Some, having done so, have grown and encountered God in undeniable ways. One textbook Christian life might be mundane, another swimming in the miraculous. You only hear "self-deception," but in my experience it is the opposite.

This puts us in the difficult position of trying to explain these things to people that have not encountered either condition, and who won't unless they can admit they're imperfect like everyone else and give in to the grace that's being offered.

When i was a child, I believed in ghosts, monsters, and Santa Claus, all things supernatural. When I was a little older, I believed in god and Jesus. So I do understand your explanation of these things fully, since I have experienced all those things personally. It's just that eventually I've come to understand it as nothing more than mass delusion, self deception, and peer pressure. All atheists who used to be Christians had the same experiences and realizations. So it's not you who knows or sees something that atheists don't, it's the atheists who have seen the same thing you have, who now know something you don't.

That's an assumption. I was raised Pentecostal. I had experiences that could be rationalized in that way. Eventually, in learning how cults operate, I became highly suspect of Christianity as well. I am all too familiar with that sheer sense of dread that such a huge percentage of the planet's population could be devoted to such self-perpetuating deceptions. But there was still a drive to find out more.

Eventually I wanted to test and see whether there is anything more than meets the eye. I sought out the most seemingly secular advancements in the use of what they called "psy" phenomenon, incredulously, to see if I applied rigorous testing criteria, could I come up with something compelling, something besides rhetoric, hearsay, and tingly things. I bit off more than I could chew. To my utter shock, it worked.

Long story short, it was all downhill from there. Ten years later I was finding that everything mysticism has to offer is just a carrot before the horse. It does function, impossible things happen, but not to the end that it promises (which is why it's frequently debunked, why divination is practically useless). I was a slave to the darkness and depravity that came with it all, until the day Jesus broke through and changed everything.

He leaves the 99 sheep to find the one that is lost, that I can attest to.

Walking with him since then has been a learning experience. He teaches me that I can trust him, and he proves faithful every time, always above my expectations. It's a relationship now, not a belief, not dependent on anyone else's opinion. It's not something I can un-realize.

[neurobox]

@neuro

what did you think of this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFz6zYgQ250 , the muslim actually puts the bible in a bin, the christian young person asks for his bible back but doesn't get it but 'steals' it back when the muslim is out of the room , I think later he brings other people for another debate

I think the young man was rather hasty on both counts. He was also seriously outgunned. Had he known how perverted some of the Hadith are, he might have had some ammo.

[Rassah]

[It's a relationship now, not a belief, not dependent on anyone else's opinion. It's not something I can un-realize.

I had an imaginary friend too at one point. He was totally real to me, I loved him, and I trusted him. It was a close relationship, but I somehow eventually outgrew it. Perhaps it was the realization that it was all just my imagination, all in my mind, and that my friend was really nothing more than a plush rabbit. Perhaps it was a deeper realization that my friend couldn't answer any questions I didn't already know, and thus he was just something fully contained within my mind. I don't know. But I eventually lost my religion the same way, when I was confronted with very dark and difficult questions, and god couldn't answer them because I myself didn't have an answer either.