KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June

[daggeteo]

Hi folks,
Sorry for the wait but the meeting was around 2 hours and it takes a shitload of  time to process all questions and make it fairly clear what was said.

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions and help you form a better perception on whether KNCminer is the real deal or not, ie if they can do this.

Since I don't wish to bombard the forum with a crazy amount of text I've put it in a GDoc. Let me know if there are any issues.

Link - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?usp=sharing

[Rampion]

Hi folks,
Sorry for the wait but the meeting was around 2 hours and it takes a shitload of  time to process all questions and make it fairly clear what was said.

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions and help you form a better perception on whether KNCminer is the real deal or not, ie if they can do this.

Since I don't wish to bombard the forum with a crazy amount of text I've put it in a GDoc. Let me know if there are any issues.

Link - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks for the effort daggeteo. I've included a TL;DR in the post above, plus some other facts:

I find it odd that not much info has come out, and its been around 24hrs now.. is their a moratorium on info till x date

There's just not much info to tell.

• Are ORSoC part of KnCMiner? Yes they are.
• Is ORSoC a legit company? Yes it is.
• Is ORSoC's area of expertise desgning FPGAs, ASICs and embedded systems? Yes it is.
• Is there a working FPGA prototype hashing at 6.2GH/s? Yes there is.
• Is there an ASIC prototype? No there isn't.
• What's the plan? To make the ASIC from the FPGA, order the chips with preorder money, and send them directly to assembly.
• Are there any gerbers for the ASIC PCB's, etc. that can be showed to us? No, they say they ASIC PCBs will be just based on the FPGA PCBs.
• Is this feasible? Mmmm, yeah, why not. That was BFL's plan too - right?
• Is this extremely expensive, knowing they are planning to do 28nm? Yes it is. VERY expensive.
• Is this project at least x10 bigger in terms of revenue streams, etc. compared to anything else ORSoC has done before? Yes it is. It's a huge project for a tiny company.

Guys, we knew that before the Open Day. Honestly, there's not much more to be said. You want to know if they are legit? Yes, they are, as legit as BFL was. Will they succeed? Don't know, but they seem to have the appropriate skills. Would they be able to deliver in the promised timeframe? Nobody knows. We just know that everybody else (included Avalon) missed the deadlines.

Summing up: this is a gamble, boys, and the odds to win this gamble are the same that you had before the Open Day.

FULL STOP.

[mxmz.in]

What engineering talent BFL had/has? Is it comparable to Orsoc's?
How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?

[kevinm]

Forgive me if this has already been clarified;

Where is assembly and testing taking place?  
Is shipping directly from test site?

Cheers,
Kev

[KS]

• Are ORSoC part of KnCMiner? Yes they are.

Correction: some ORSoC *people* are part of KNCMINER, not ORSoC as a company. Different implications.

[retro72]

I find it odd that not much info has come out, and its been around 24hrs now.. is their a moratorium on info till x date

There's just not much info to tell.

• Are ORSoC part of KnCMiner? Yes they are.
• Is ORSoC a legit company? Yes it is.
• Is ORSoC's area of expertise desgning FPGAs, ASICs and embedded systems? Yes it is.
• Is there a working FPGA prototype hashing at 6.2GH/s? Yes there is.
• Is there an ASIC prototype? No there isn't.
• What's the plan? To make the ASIC from the FPGA, order the chips with preorder money, and send them directly to assembly.
• Are there any gerbers for the ASIC PCB's, etc. that can be showed to us? No, they say they ASIC PCBs will be just based on the FPGA PCBs.
• Is this feasible? Mmmm, yeah, why not. That was BFL's plan too - right?
• Is this extremely expensive, knowing they are planning to do 28nm? Yes it is. VERY expensive.
• Is this project at least x10 bigger in terms of revenue streams, etc. compared to anything else ORSoC has done before? Yes it is. It's a huge project for a tiny company.

Guys, we knew that before the Open Day. Honestly, there's not much more to be said. You want to know if they are legit? Yes, they are, as legit as BFL was. Will they succeed? Don't know, but they seem to have the appropriate skills. Would they be able to deliver in the promised timeframe? Nobody knows. We just know that everybody else (included Avalon) missed the deadlines.

Summing up: this is a gamble, boys, and the odds to win this gamble are the same that you had before the Open Day.

FULL STOP.

I couldn't have put it better.
Anyone thinking anything else is quite simply deluding themselves. You are rolling the dice, if you don't know that you really shouldn't be "investing" in this.

[KS]

Hi folks,
Sorry for the wait but the meeting was around 2 hours and it takes a shitload of  time to process all questions and make it fairly clear what was said.

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions and help you form a better perception on whether KNCminer is the real deal or not, ie if they can do this.

Since I don't wish to bombard the forum with a crazy amount of text I've put it in a GDoc. Let me know if there are any issues.

Link - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?usp=sharing

Good work!

(KNCMINER *still* gave erroneous answers to funding and equity. Whatever...  )

[Biomech]

What engineering talent BFL had/has? Is it comparable to Orsoc's?
How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?

I am not an expert, however I know something of the process.

First off, there seems to be a "feel" in the bitcoin community that ASIC's are magical, new, crazy machines. They are not. What's new is adapting them to this specific application.

So, yeah, the ASIC layout should be almost the same as the FPGA layout. Using FPGA's to prototype is nothing new either.

Also, given that ASIC chips are used in a wide variety of things, they don't have to reinvent the wheel or even do a full mask. There might be some technological gains from doing this from the ground up, but for this sort of application (essentially doing one calculation over and over again) the gain is severely outweighed by the cost. Basically the engineering work is already done aside from the embedded application. Making the mask is expensive, not groundbreaking.

ORSoC already does 28nm ASIC chips. They just need the current team to do the last couple of layers over an existing design. This is not trivial, but as Yifu has already demonstrated, it's within the knowledge and capabilities of talented amateurs. ORSoC is not an amateur group.

The biggest likely hangup isn't adapting the design, it's getting it to their fabricator on time, and hoping that the fab doesn't stick their thumbs up their asses. I have not read daggateo's report yet, but I have little doubt about KNC and ORSoC being able to engineer the thing and going to fab in the timeline they are aiming for. I do have some doubts about a major fab giving them the priority they need. But again, they are an established company and therefore have more clout than most of the people currently doing bitcoin ASIC miners. I would say a month past their target is reasonable, two months even would be ok. It is highly unlikely that much will have changed by then, given the track record of the other players. The Avalon chips are about the only wildcard in that. I can't see BFL getting up to steam that fast, if ever, and the rest of the builders that I am aware of are either on a similar schedule or are awaiting the Avalon chips.

While as KS keeps pointing out, KNC is NOT ORSoC, they are nevertheless directly affiliated and do have some skin in the game, even if only reputation. But rep means a lot.

I am unfortunately not able to order at this time myself, but if I were I'd take this gamble. And I am a fairly conservative man.

[TheSwede75]

What engineering talent BFL had/has? Is it comparable to Orsoc's?
How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?

I am not an expert, however I know something of the process.

First off, there seems to be a "feel" in the bitcoin community that ASIC's are magical, new, crazy machines. They are not. What's new is adapting them to this specific application.

So, yeah, the ASIC layout should be almost the same as the FPGA layout. Using FPGA's to prototype is nothing new either.

Also, given that ASIC chips are used in a wide variety of things, they don't have to reinvent the wheel or even do a full mask. There might be some technological gains from doing this from the ground up, but for this sort of application (essentially doing one calculation over and over again) the gain is severely outweighed by the cost. Basically the engineering work is already done aside from the embedded application. Making the mask is expensive, not groundbreaking.

ORSoC already does 28nm ASIC chips. They just need the current team to do the last couple of layers over an existing design. This is not trivial, but as Yifu has already demonstrated, it's within the knowledge and capabilities of talented amateurs. ORSoC is not an amateur group.

The biggest likely hangup isn't adapting the design, it's getting it to their fabricator on time, and hoping that the fab doesn't stick their thumbs up their asses. I have not read daggateo's report yet, but I have little doubt about KNC and ORSoC being able to engineer the thing and going to fab in the timeline they are aiming for. I do have some doubts about a major fab giving them the priority they need. But again, they are an established company and therefore have more clout than most of the people currently doing bitcoin ASIC miners. I would say a month past their target is reasonable, two months even would be ok. It is highly unlikely that much will have changed by then, given the track record of the other players. The Avalon chips are about the only wildcard in that. I can't see BFL getting up to steam that fast, if ever, and the rest of the builders that I am aware of are either on a similar schedule or are awaiting the Avalon chips.

While as KS keeps pointing out, KNC is NOT ORSoC, they are nevertheless directly affiliated and do have some skin in the game, even if only reputation. But rep means a lot.

I am unfortunately not able to order at this time myself, but if I were I'd take this gamble. And I am a fairly conservative man.

I feel that this seems like a fairly accurate description of the risk factors. I honestly feel that for my order customs and tax might be the largest factor that will play into the profit/risk.

Having never ordered high value electronic components with shipping from Sweden/EU to the US before I just hope DHL knows what they are doing and will provide the necessary information quickly.

[TheSwede75]

What engineering talent BFL had/has? Is it comparable to Orsoc's?
How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?

I am not an expert, however I know something of the process.

First off, there seems to be a "feel" in the bitcoin community that ASIC's are magical, new, crazy machines. They are not. What's new is adapting them to this specific application.

So, yeah, the ASIC layout should be almost the same as the FPGA layout. Using FPGA's to prototype is nothing new either.

Also, given that ASIC chips are used in a wide variety of things, they don't have to reinvent the wheel or even do a full mask. There might be some technological gains from doing this from the ground up, but for this sort of application (essentially doing one calculation over and over again) the gain is severely outweighed by the cost. Basically the engineering work is already done aside from the embedded application. Making the mask is expensive, not groundbreaking.

ORSoC already does 28nm ASIC chips. They just need the current team to do the last couple of layers over an existing design. This is not trivial, but as Yifu has already demonstrated, it's within the knowledge and capabilities of talented amateurs. ORSoC is not an amateur group.

The biggest likely hangup isn't adapting the design, it's getting it to their fabricator on time, and hoping that the fab doesn't stick their thumbs up their asses. I have not read daggateo's report yet, but I have little doubt about KNC and ORSoC being able to engineer the thing and going to fab in the timeline they are aiming for. I do have some doubts about a major fab giving them the priority they need. But again, they are an established company and therefore have more clout than most of the people currently doing bitcoin ASIC miners. I would say a month past their target is reasonable, two months even would be ok. It is highly unlikely that much will have changed by then, given the track record of the other players. The Avalon chips are about the only wildcard in that. I can't see BFL getting up to steam that fast, if ever, and the rest of the builders that I am aware of are either on a similar schedule or are awaiting the Avalon chips.

While as KS keeps pointing out, KNC is NOT ORSoC, they are nevertheless directly affiliated and do have some skin in the game, even if only reputation. But rep means a lot.

I am unfortunately not able to order at this time myself, but if I were I'd take this gamble. And I am a fairly conservative man.

I do feel that one thing I can't quite wrap my head around is the ASIC's themselves. As far as I know Avalon do not sell 28nm chips (105 or 65 nm right?) and not within the gh/w specs required. Anyone have any idea who the chip provider is for kNC?

[Biomech]

What engineering talent BFL had/has? Is it comparable to Orsoc's?
How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?

I am not an expert, however I know something of the process.

First off, there seems to be a "feel" in the bitcoin community that ASIC's are magical, new, crazy machines. They are not. What's new is adapting them to this specific application.

So, yeah, the ASIC layout should be almost the same as the FPGA layout. Using FPGA's to prototype is nothing new either.

Also, given that ASIC chips are used in a wide variety of things, they don't have to reinvent the wheel or even do a full mask. There might be some technological gains from doing this from the ground up, but for this sort of application (essentially doing one calculation over and over again) the gain is severely outweighed by the cost. Basically the engineering work is already done aside from the embedded application. Making the mask is expensive, not groundbreaking.

ORSoC already does 28nm ASIC chips. They just need the current team to do the last couple of layers over an existing design. This is not trivial, but as Yifu has already demonstrated, it's within the knowledge and capabilities of talented amateurs. ORSoC is not an amateur group.

The biggest likely hangup isn't adapting the design, it's getting it to their fabricator on time, and hoping that the fab doesn't stick their thumbs up their asses. I have not read daggateo's report yet, but I have little doubt about KNC and ORSoC being able to engineer the thing and going to fab in the timeline they are aiming for. I do have some doubts about a major fab giving them the priority they need. But again, they are an established company and therefore have more clout than most of the people currently doing bitcoin ASIC miners. I would say a month past their target is reasonable, two months even would be ok. It is highly unlikely that much will have changed by then, given the track record of the other players. The Avalon chips are about the only wildcard in that. I can't see BFL getting up to steam that fast, if ever, and the rest of the builders that I am aware of are either on a similar schedule or are awaiting the Avalon chips.

While as KS keeps pointing out, KNC is NOT ORSoC, they are nevertheless directly affiliated and do have some skin in the game, even if only reputation. But rep means a lot.

I am unfortunately not able to order at this time myself, but if I were I'd take this gamble. And I am a fairly conservative man.

I feel that this seems like a fairly accurate description of the risk factors. I honestly feel that for my order customs and tax might be the largest factor that will play into the profit/risk.

Having never ordered high value electronic components with shipping from Sweden/EU to the US before I just hope DHL knows what they are doing and will provide the necessary information quickly.

Eh. I've ordered stuff from overseas before. Usually there is some customs fees involved, almost always handled by the shipper as part of their fees. I've never had it be a problem. For interstate commerce there have been multiple cases going all the way back to pre War Between the States cases stating that sales taxes cannot be assessed unless the purchase is made in state. States do keep trying to get around that, but are rarely successful for more than a minute before getting slapped down. Still, at worst you'd be looking at an additional six or seven percent. I think the EU guys have a tougher go with this one, as they all do VAT, which is a really outrageous tax scheme. Luckily our Congresscritters so far haven't been bright enough to come out with anything as blatantly confiscatory as that and get away with it.

[mxmz.in]

...  Anyone have any idea who the chip provider is for kNC?

I gather they do the chips themselves

[Biomech]

What engineering talent BFL had/has? Is it comparable to Orsoc's?
How does going strait to production sound, can some hardware expert enlighten me please?

I am not an expert, however I know something of the process.

First off, there seems to be a "feel" in the bitcoin community that ASIC's are magical, new, crazy machines. They are not. What's new is adapting them to this specific application.

So, yeah, the ASIC layout should be almost the same as the FPGA layout. Using FPGA's to prototype is nothing new either.

Also, given that ASIC chips are used in a wide variety of things, they don't have to reinvent the wheel or even do a full mask. There might be some technological gains from doing this from the ground up, but for this sort of application (essentially doing one calculation over and over again) the gain is severely outweighed by the cost. Basically the engineering work is already done aside from the embedded application. Making the mask is expensive, not groundbreaking.

ORSoC already does 28nm ASIC chips. They just need the current team to do the last couple of layers over an existing design. This is not trivial, but as Yifu has already demonstrated, it's within the knowledge and capabilities of talented amateurs. ORSoC is not an amateur group.

The biggest likely hangup isn't adapting the design, it's getting it to their fabricator on time, and hoping that the fab doesn't stick their thumbs up their asses. I have not read daggateo's report yet, but I have little doubt about KNC and ORSoC being able to engineer the thing and going to fab in the timeline they are aiming for. I do have some doubts about a major fab giving them the priority they need. But again, they are an established company and therefore have more clout than most of the people currently doing bitcoin ASIC miners. I would say a month past their target is reasonable, two months even would be ok. It is highly unlikely that much will have changed by then, given the track record of the other players. The Avalon chips are about the only wildcard in that. I can't see BFL getting up to steam that fast, if ever, and the rest of the builders that I am aware of are either on a similar schedule or are awaiting the Avalon chips.

While as KS keeps pointing out, KNC is NOT ORSoC, they are nevertheless directly affiliated and do have some skin in the game, even if only reputation. But rep means a lot.

I am unfortunately not able to order at this time myself, but if I were I'd take this gamble. And I am a fairly conservative man.

I do feel that one thing I can't quite wrap my head around is the ASIC's themselves. As far as I know Avalon do not sell 28nm chips (105 or 65 nm right?) and not within the gh/w specs required. Anyone have any idea who the chip provider is for kNC?

Not offhand. There are a number of fabs that could do it. Micron in Boise Idaho, for one. It's not that unusual, but it is more expensive for the setup. Avalon and ASICMiner both stated that they went for the lower spec due to much lower NRE cost. KNC is trying to raise the bar with the more expensive entry.

[daggeteo]

...  Anyone have any idea who the chip provider is for kNC?

I gather they do the chips themselves

No, it is either TSMC or Global foundries. They are the two companies who have the capability to do this. KNCminer did not want to specify which one of those two that they are using for commercial reasons.

[retro72]

Hi folks,
Sorry for the wait but the meeting was around 2 hours and it takes a shitload of  time to process all questions and make it fairly clear what was said.

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions and help you form a better perception on whether KNCminer is the real deal or not, ie if they can do this.

Since I don't wish to bombard the forum with a crazy amount of text I've put it in a GDoc. Let me know if there are any issues.

Link - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?usp=sharing

Good work!

(KNCMINER *still* gave erroneous answers to funding and equity. Whatever...  )

Yes good work. Thanks.

Hasn't convinced me to invest at this time but I really didn't think it would. I think I'll wait to see how this all pans out.

[glowkeeper]

Hi folks,
Sorry for the wait but the meeting was around 2 hours and it takes a shitload of  time to process all questions and make it fairly clear what was said.

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions and help you form a better perception on whether KNCminer is the real deal or not, ie if they can do this.

Since I don't wish to bombard the forum with a crazy amount of text I've put it in a GDoc. Let me know if there are any issues.

Link - https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?usp=sharing

Good work!

(KNCMINER *still* gave erroneous answers to funding and equity. Whatever...  )

Yes good work. Thanks.

Hasn't convinced me to invest at this time but I really didn't think it would. I think I'll wait to see how this all pans out.

+1

[Coinmining]

How far are they with the chip design?

Do they have RTL? Tape-out?
What is the hash rate gonna be for the chip?

Or are they planning to start after they recieve the money from the pre-orders?

[KS]

Anyone have any idea who the chip provider is for kNC?

I forgot where I read it but it seems ORSoC had an agreement with eASIC, however their website only hints at 28nm being released "soon", so I don't think they are the ones.

Looking at the Mars proto, and wondering why they would use the underpowered Altera Cyclone FPGA (150MH/s), I think they might be using the Altera QuintusII/Hardcopy V "process". It's based on the Stratix FPGA, but I don't think it would be a stretch from the Cyclone.

KNCMINER said that they only needed to program the FPGA and the ASIC suppliers would do the rest. That is very much what Altera does and Altera has had a 28nm process since 2010 and is a TSMC partner (they also help TSMC test-drive the various nodes).

So, based on that (however little), I would say they're working with Altera for the ASICs. Now, who will be doing assembly, I don't know...

[Bitcoinorama]

...  Anyone have any idea who the chip provider is for kNC?

I gather they do the chips themselves

No, it is either TSMC or Global foundries. They are the two companies who have the capability to do this. KNCminer did not want to specify which one of those two that they are using for commercial reasons.

I think I actually know the answer to this, but if they have said they don't want to specify I'll respect that.

Daggeteo, marvellous work, thank-you so very much for taking the time to do that!

I'm going to try and grab a flight on Monday when I get home tonight. The issue is being able to grab one to Skavsta that I can realistically catch once the tubes start running. It's impossible for me to catch a 6am Gatwick flight from the other side of London, so fingers crossed!

So based on what has been said/typed up and subsequent to digestion, if anyone has anything they want asked or expanded upon (KS especially), hit me up a PM!!

Note: feel free to bounce questions among yourselves based upon what you now know, and what your interpretation of events now are, but if they aren't sent to me as a PM, don't hold me accountable for not asking. Also I aim to post whatever list of Q's I have on Sunday for final review by you (plural), ok?

[Rampion]

Main problem everybody is overseeing is scalability.

Again: huge project for small company.

They had problems with their Paypal account? OBVIOUS, that's a lot of payments flowing to an account that probably had very fewer (or none) in the past. And do you know what happens when you open a new bank account for a new company that suddenly receives millions of $ from payments coming from all over the world in just a few days? There are alarms that ring. Swedish tax authority *may* temporary freeze the account and ask for clarifications, or their bank can put some limits and temporary hold the funds/block incoming ones (as Paypal probably did) until everything is clarified, and that takes some time. This is just an example, there are many scalability problems you may encounter when you are a company that suddenly makes a project x20 bigger than the other projects you have done in the past. For example, has ever KnC or ORSoC developed and commercialized a consumer product with that kind of price-tag and manufacturing costs and delivered it to thousands to consumers all over the world in a record time? No, they didn't. And this, as we all know, is a project tightly linked to a crazy schedule - the question is not if they can design a Bitcoin ASIC, is not if they are scammers or not, the real question is how many chances there are that they can meet such a super-tight schedule and not be overwhelmed to what it's coming to them.

Heck. They even allowed people to sell pre-order IDs and offered to manage that... What they were thinking? I hope they stopped to do that, but IMO that's just an example of how they may be underestimating the scale involved in this project, and thus they may incur in delays.

As I said earlier: I invested in them. I do not want to spread FUD, I love the fact that there is a new competitor in the ASIC game, and I will very happy to support them and keep investing if this go well. But I'm just amazed to see how there is a lot of people so eager to justify their own investment (or blinded by greed) that they will just act as irrational fan-boys, losing all contact with reality.