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Author Topic: BFL announces 28nm 600GH/S blade for $4680  (Read 39412 times)
Ytterbium
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August 29, 2013, 04:01:43 AM
 #821

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

Actually it was common for computer manuals to include schematics way back when.  If you're selling raw (which is what intel does) chips you obviously need to give the people you sell the chips too a board design.

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nexus99
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August 29, 2013, 04:03:03 AM
 #822

Just to try to draw a comparison: Would you consider the PS4 vaporware? Hundreds of millions in preorders for that box and no one has seen all the secrets inside yet.

The point is that companies typically aren't going to give away that kind of information. that is why you see all of the tear down videos for devices after they are released... so folks can figure out whats inside.

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August 29, 2013, 04:03:31 AM
 #823

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

The fact there is a DESIGN before they even prototype that means something... there is NOTHING here absolutely NOTHING why are we all accepting that this is going to ship at all... there is NO EVIDENCE it will even get off the design table.

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nexus99
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August 29, 2013, 04:04:36 AM
 #824

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

Actually it was common for computer manuals to include schematics way back when.  If you're selling raw (which is what intel does) chips you obviously need to give the people you sell the chips too a board design.

Yes, Intel is a bad comparison. I give you that one.
Manuals usually come with the product when you buy it right?
And yes, some products are designed for others to build add on modules, etc so they do release those kinds of details... but this isn't that situation.
nexus99
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August 29, 2013, 04:05:10 AM
 #825

I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.

The fact there is a DESIGN before they even prototype that means something... there is NOTHING here absolutely NOTHING why are we all accepting that this is going to ship at all... there is NO EVIDENCE it will even get off the design table.

How do you know there is nothing?
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August 29, 2013, 04:07:44 AM
 #826

A picture and specifications pulled from the air is unacceptable as CUSTOM HARDWARE in my opinion. I can post a picture and give you a song and dance about the specs. When I post about a 50 port hub I had a actual schematic for that hub. When I posted information about a USB Bitfury Miner I posted a prototype board... isn't that the standard we want?

I have NOT SEEN ANYTHING POSTED so there is NOTHING THAT EXISTS.

There is a TEAPOT flying in orbit behind the moon. Who has the BURDEN of proof?

BFL has to prove they have SOMETHING or this stuff needs to moved to off topic or speculation. Waste of space otherwise.

I submit that BFL is talking about a cosmic teapot not an actual product. If you have something then prove it.

Code:
Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot,
is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to
illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically
unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the
case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere
in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to
believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still
referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.

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nexus99
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August 29, 2013, 04:10:39 AM
 #827

A picture and specifications pulled from the air is unacceptable as CUSTOM HARDWARE in my opinion. I can could post a picture and give you a song and dance about the specs. When I post about a hub I had a schematic for the hub. When I posted information about a USB Bitfury Miner I posted a prototype board... isn't that the standard we want?

I have NOT SEE ANYTHING...

There is a TEAPOT flying in orbit behind the moon. Who has the BURDEN of proof?

BFL has to prove they have SOMETHING or this stuff needs to moved to off topic or speculation. Waste of space otherwise.

I'd say that most of the things sold or talked about here really aren't 'custom' hardware. Avalon - no, BFL - No, KNC - no. I'd say that the Mr Teal and Lucko boards are...
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August 29, 2013, 04:12:05 AM
 #828

A picture and specifications pulled from the air is unacceptable as CUSTOM HARDWARE in my opinion. I can could post a picture and give you a song and dance about the specs. When I post about a hub I had a schematic for the hub. When I posted information about a USB Bitfury Miner I posted a prototype board... isn't that the standard we want?

I have NOT SEE ANYTHING...

There is a TEAPOT flying in orbit behind the moon. Who has the BURDEN of proof?

BFL has to prove they have SOMETHING or this stuff needs to moved to off topic or speculation. Waste of space otherwise.

I'd say that most of the things sold or talked about here really aren't 'custom' hardware. Avalon - no, BFL - No, KNC - no. I'd say that the Mr Teal and Lucko boards are...

Stop evading the point. BFL's Monarch is pure fantasy. It doesn't belong in mining at all. It is speculation it is vapourware.

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August 29, 2013, 04:14:45 AM
 #829

i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.
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August 29, 2013, 04:16:41 AM
 #830

i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.

I asked you what is the STANDARD... you are talking about other fabricators.

BFL has no evidence, is that sufficient to post in Custom Hardware? No, I would say it that it is not.

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Ytterbium
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August 29, 2013, 04:18:32 AM
 #831

i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.

The monarch card they showed the CGI rendering of would never be able to dissipate 350W. And it had the wrong fucking edge connector.  That's obvious evidence they just slapped up an image in some 3D graphics program and clearly don't have a working board design.

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August 29, 2013, 04:20:18 AM
 #832

i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.

The monarch card they showed the CGI rendering of would never be able to dissipate 350W. And it had the wrong fucking edge connector.  That's obvious evidence they just slapped up an image in some 3D graphics program and clearly don't have a working board design.

Everyone agrees the image on the page is lame. It doesn't clearly show they don't have a working board design though.
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August 29, 2013, 04:38:11 AM
 #833

Just to try to draw a comparison: Would you consider the PS4 vaporware? Hundreds of millions in preorders for that box and no one has seen all the secrets inside yet.

The PS4 is a great example. Sony has a track record of releasing several generations of consoles, so there's not much risk that they won't release the PS4 near the scheduled date and specs. Prototypes have been demostrated in the public at numerous shows. 3rd party developers have confirmed the console exists and are working on games for it. The product already exists. It's not just a sketch on a napkin.

http://www.intomobile.com/2013/08/20/walmart-begin-ps4-and-xbox-one-preorders-august-24th/

Snag a pre-order for 10% down. That's how pre-orders should work.

Buy & Hold
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August 29, 2013, 04:42:05 AM
 #834

i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.

The monarch card they showed the CGI rendering of would never be able to dissipate 350W. And it had the wrong fucking edge connector.  That's obvious evidence they just slapped up an image in some 3D graphics program and clearly don't have a working board design.

Everyone agrees the image on the page is lame. It doesn't clearly show they don't have a working board design though.

The point is they make A CLAIM THEY HAVE TO PROVE IT. That is the minimum standard I suggest we have in this forum for posting in Custom Hardware not imaginary vapourware. If they have any evidence then provide it otherwise this should be removed.

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September 02, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
 #835

What a long topic

I lose my eyes reading it on Iphone on holliday nights.
(But I'm french, we used to read threads at night)

I have requested a refund to office@butterflylabs.com for a noob pre-order 05/30/2013

I was aware of risks to not ROI and thought that would support the network. I now think the network doesn't need a 7 gh/s support Wink

So late order, upgraded, I will let you know if BFL refund me.

If yes, will use the money to buy sauce with BBQcoins.

Little Update

I don't have received answer from BFL

I have contacted Paypal today for a complaint, but they sad they cannot do anything because 45 days have passed

Next step for me is contacting french DGCCRF (fraud repression) and my bank to chargeback Credit card transaction (because paypal is linked to my bank credit card)

keep you updated  Wink
fractal02
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September 02, 2013, 01:03:37 PM
 #836

Little Update

I don't have received answer from BFL

I have contacted Paypal today for a complaint, but they sad they cannot do anything because 45 days have passed

Next step for me is contacting french DGCCRF (fraud repression) and my bank to chargeback Credit card transaction (because paypal is linked to my bank credit card)

keep you updated  Wink

Ouais c'est ça...vas-y...contacte la DGCCRF...

Après explique leur que tu ne t'es pas acquitté de toutes tes plus-values mobilières effectué en minant/revendant.
==> http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F21618.xhtml#N1018C

Et apprend à lire aussi....quand j'ai acheté chez Butterfly il y avait déjà le "NO refunds"
A moins de pas avoir de cerveau...


Sorry guys for this French interlude, but this noob try to contact French DGCCRF (some sort of FCC but also in charge about Transactionnal tax, Gain market fraud, etc, etc...)

Guess someone shortly had to explain why he doesn't pay the "gain market taxes" when mining/reselling on exchange...
 
smoothie
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LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


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September 02, 2013, 01:05:16 PM
 #837

i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.

The monarch card they showed the CGI rendering of would never be able to dissipate 350W. And it had the wrong fucking edge connector.  That's obvious evidence they just slapped up an image in some 3D graphics program and clearly don't have a working board design.

Everyone agrees the image on the page is lame. It doesn't clearly show they don't have a working board design though.

If they did they would have included it in the image in some way or other.

Seems silly not to. But given BFLs way of doing business, it doesn't surprise me the lengths they are willing to go (in being scumbags) to make a profit.

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n691309
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September 02, 2013, 01:09:25 PM
 #838

i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.

The monarch card they showed the CGI rendering of would never be able to dissipate 350W. And it had the wrong fucking edge connector.  That's obvious evidence they just slapped up an image in some 3D graphics program and clearly don't have a working board design.


Of course the pic is not prototype. I remember first Jalapeno picture looked like external HDD. I guess picture = more preorders


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September 02, 2013, 02:13:38 PM
 #839


Sorry guys for this French interlude, but this noob try to contact French DGCCRF (some sort of FCC but also in charge about Transactionnal tax, Gain market fraud, etc, etc...)

Guess someone shortly had to explain why he doesn't pay the "gain market taxes" when mining/reselling on exchange...
 

Hello stupid guy, I never have sold BTC, I'm a new comer, I have bought my BTC at an average of 80€ (at bitcoin.de, legal in europe, with account certified) and mined 0.01 BTC with an old card in two weeks in june.

I will have to pay taxes on this if and only if I sell them at a gain.

So I will DGCCRF them deep in the ass  Kiss

I also know "all sales are final", but they need to deliver before a sale exist  Wink
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September 02, 2013, 02:14:47 PM
 #840

Who else here has noticed that Butterfly Labs has been falsely advertising their planned 28nm product as decisively better than what actual competition offers?
Listed on BFL's website's 28nm product page (http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/) :

BFL Monarch $7.80/GH @ 0.6W/GH  ----  "The Competition": at least $17.50/GH @ 2.5W/GH

This seems based on old KNC numbers, but those have changed. Regardless, since a while now, others have already listed as competitive and even better deals.
Cointerra's product plan is advertised as $6.99/GH at 0.55W/GH (http://cointerra.com/product/terraminer-iv-2ths/)
HashFast is $14/GH @ 0.9W/GH with a guarantee 90 day to help ROI for pre-orders (https://hashfast.com/shop/babyjet/)
KNC is now $12.5/GH @ 1.6W/GH. (https://www.kncminer.com/categories/miners/)

On top of all this, BFL is expected to be one of the later shippers of 28nm. It's nice not to be in the BFL pre-order que for 28nm.
How long before they change that bit of misleading information on their website? It's been that way since the Monarch hype started.
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