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Author Topic: BFL announces 28nm 600GH/S blade for $4680  (Read 39385 times)
xstr8guy
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August 27, 2013, 09:26:24 PM
 #761


How did you overclock your singles to 89GH/s per board?
He didn't, your math is wrong that's all. Minirig 480GH/s, that means 235GH/s from the 4 Singles.


... four BFL Single SCs draw just under 1100w and hash at around 375Gh/s...

375/4=93.75GH/s per Single?   Huh
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August 27, 2013, 09:36:14 PM
 #762


RoI is the fiction of the greedy.


No, it's entirely real.  Did you miss the part where I told you my batch 2 avalon has paid for itself, In bitcoin?  

I spent bitcoins I had because I wanted more bitcoins then I started with, and now, I have them.

Quote
If difficulty is 1,000,000,000 when you get your unit, simply REFUSE to sell at current prices that equal a loss.  If more and more people do this, the pirice WILL rise.

Which doesn't matter if your goal was to increase the number of bitcoins you have. Which I told you, is the reason I bought an ASIC. Otherwise I would have just kept my bitcoins.

Quote
On the other hand, you are saying it's quite alright to fuck over the customer if there is such an artificially high demand and you charge then $1,000,000 for less hash than a mini-rig costing $30k.  SURE you get them in hand NOW, but damn you got ass-raped in the process.

What the fuck are you talking about?  In may of 2011 $1 million dollars could have bought you more then 1.5TH/s. If you'd kept the money the bitcoins you mined would probably be worth $50-100 million dollars.  

The timing matters.  In fact, I think, but I haven't done the math - if you'd spent $1 million dollars on GPUs in June of 2012 instead of spending $30k on a BFL mini-rig, you'd actually have already made a profit by now, given the price increase.  That's the incredible irony of this.   The people who ordered Mini-rigs at that point in time would have been better off buying GPUs.

I agree people shouldn't buy block erupters expecting to get an ROI. I think most people just buy them for fun.

Quote
Quote
Of course it's BFL's fault. They had faulty information because BFL withheld that information. That was no way to know what effect the other orders would have because BFL chose not to share that information with them.  Which is why I decided not to order from them last year, and went with Avalon instead (I have a batch 2 that's already paid for itself in BTC)

Yet again, the greedy persons view of the world.

Again, are you smoking crack?

Why would someone want to just give free money to BFL in exchange for nothing of value? If they want to give to charity there are lot of worthwhile options.

If you're not a little greedy, there's no reason to care about bitcoin at all.  There's no reason to care about money. If they weren't greedy they would never have bought ASICs in the first place. Why would they?

Quote
BFL is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

BFL is damned because their mistakes are in the past.  There is nothing they can do now to rectify the situation, that's what happens.  That's how time works. Mistakes can't always be undone, and the damned stay damned.

Quote
If you listen to the shills on the ASICMiner posts, RoI != profit.  RoI is simply Return ON investment.  EVERY MINER HAS AN ROI, some just have a HIGHER RoI than others.  Using your flawed BTC argument, you'll never attain MORE BTC than you spend unless the network has reached saturation, so you should never again buy another new product.

I just told you. My Batch2 Avolon has already paid for itself, in BTC. And it certainly is true that no one should buy a pre-order at this point in time. Anyway people use "ROI" around here to mean positive ROI. If you make less then you pay it's a negative ROI.

Quote
can't take any more ignorance.

Ignorance of what?

You're just spewing total nonsense.

You claim to be defending BFL, and yet you say they fucked their customers. You admit their customers will never ROI, and that BFL never intended for them too.  You say the customers should have figured it out, and then you say their customers are only complaining because they're "greedy".  Except if they weren't greedy they never would have bought an ASIC in the first place.

That's like saying you shouldn't complain about getting fucked because the only reason it hurt is because you're too uptight for the giant dick to fit comfortably in your asshole.

You're not defending BFL, certainly not in a way that would make sense to the people they fucked.  We seem to agree on the facts, it's just you don't think there's anything wrong with ripping people off if they're "greedy" and stupid.

It's totally bizarre.

How can you compare the returns achievable from $1 million worth of GPUs, versus a $30k ASIC? For starters, if you bought that many gpu's, you'd probably still be plugging them in... For second, you would have drastically altered network difficulty, asicminer world have deployed that many more chips, and with difficulty that much higher, less people wotks have even checked out bitcoin, so you probably wouldn't have seen the spike that we got. I keep saying, hindsight works great, but not for driving ahead.... Nobody but nobody world have thought bitcoin would go from $6 to 130 let alone $240 during the intervening time frame. At that point where it was $6, recall that bitcoin had LOST 80% of its value from its previous high. The prices we see now were not in the cards. And if someone did know what the future entailed, shame on them for spending their bitcoins back in 2012 when they were poised for a 4000% increase.
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August 27, 2013, 09:36:35 PM
 #763

375/4=93.75GH/s per Single?   Huh

I'm the owner of that particular typo. The singles do slightly better per engine than the minrig SC since I've stripped the very poorly designed cases and replaced both the HSF fans(why low profile BFL?) and the case fans with fans that don't suck, but the four average approximately 275.

Oh and I stripped the ridiculous thermal pad on the chips and replaced it with MX-2.

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August 27, 2013, 09:37:51 PM
 #764

Not saying that people that went the Avalon route did bad. Indeed, they did great. But both routes were untested, the outcomes unknown in 2012. As for today? What can you order from Avalon? Anything besides raw chips? And aren't those having difficulty reaching their destination (not FUD, trully sounds like that's been the case).

BFL was already four months late when I ordered my B2. They were already a failure.

Not only that, BFL is nowhere near getting to February of 2013 in their order queue, which is when B2 went on sale.

Now obviously people who ordered chips from them got completely screwed.

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August 27, 2013, 09:40:08 PM
 #765

Avalon B3 will have a better ROI when all is said and done than an equivalent order placed with BFL in March of 2013. Despite Avalon's own pooch screwing.

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August 27, 2013, 09:55:19 PM
 #766

How can you compare the returns achievable from $1 million worth of GPUs, versus a $30k ASIC? For starters, if you bought that many gpu's, you'd probably still be plugging them in...

At an amortized cost of $200, that's 5,000 GPUs or 1,250 PCs with 4 each.

Also, I don't know if you know this or not, but if you have a million dollars, you can hire people to assemble stuff for you.

Anway, it's not a realistic example.  If you had a million dollars to spend on bitcoin mining can (and still can) produce your own ASIC.

Quote
For second, you would have drastically altered network difficulty, asicminer world have deployed that many more chips, and with difficulty that much higher, less people wotks have even checked out bitcoin, so you probably wouldn't have seen the spike that we got. I keep saying, hindsight works great, but not for driving ahead.... Nobody but nobody world have thought bitcoin would go from $6 to 130 let alone $240 during the intervening time frame. At that point where it was $6, recall that bitcoin had LOST 80% of its value from its previous high. The prices we see now were not in the cards. And if someone did know what the future entailed, shame on them for spending their bitcoins back in 2012 when they were poised for a 4000% increase.

WTF are you talking about?  The network was already 12TH/s in june of 2012.  And it was 14Th/s in July, and 17 in August. In total people were already spending well over a million dollars a month on GPUs (And FPGAs were even more expensive per GH, just more energy efficient)

If you spent a million on GPUs, it would have been a drop in the bucket.

I certainly wouldn't have recommended anyone do it at the time.

My point is only this: BFL is such a shitty deal, that BFL delayed for such a long time, you would have been better off buying GPUs instead.

I'm not saying people should have bought GPUs instead.  I am just saying that that's how bad of a deal BFL was at the time. Their ASICs are worse then GPUs, because they were delayed for such a long time.

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August 27, 2013, 10:04:52 PM
 #767

How can you compare the returns achievable from $1 million worth of GPUs, versus a $30k ASIC?

The are incomparable. The GPUs would have: been paid for by, shipped to, received by, unboxed by, plugged in by, and mined for you.
The $30K ASIC pre-order is most likely only a piece of paper. A few have been delivered, most have not. At this point, it is uncertain that it will ever be more than that.

I would rather have 1 GPU with cgminer on August 29th, 2010 than a $30K ASIC today.

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August 27, 2013, 10:11:35 PM
 #768


RoI is the fiction of the greedy.


No, it's entirely real.  Did you miss the part where I told you my batch 2 avalon has paid for itself, In bitcoin?  

I spent bitcoins I had because I wanted more bitcoins then I started with, and now, I have them.

Quote
If difficulty is 1,000,000,000 when you get your unit, simply REFUSE to sell at current prices that equal a loss.  If more and more people do this, the pirice WILL rise.

Which doesn't matter if your goal was to increase the number of bitcoins you have. Which I told you, is the reason I bought an ASIC. Otherwise I would have just kept my bitcoins.

Quote
On the other hand, you are saying it's quite alright to fuck over the customer if there is such an artificially high demand and you charge then $1,000,000 for less hash than a mini-rig costing $30k.  SURE you get them in hand NOW, but damn you got ass-raped in the process.

What the fuck are you talking about?  In may of 2011 $1 million dollars could have bought you more then 1.5TH/s. If you'd kept the money the bitcoins you mined would probably be worth $50-100 million dollars.  

The timing matters.  In fact, I think, but I haven't done the math - if you'd spent $1 million dollars on GPUs in June of 2012 instead of spending $30k on a BFL mini-rig, you'd actually have already made a profit by now, given the price increase.  That's the incredible irony of this.   The people who ordered Mini-rigs at that point in time would have been better off buying GPUs.

I agree people shouldn't buy block erupters expecting to get an ROI. I think most people just buy them for fun.

Quote
Quote
Of course it's BFL's fault. They had faulty information because BFL withheld that information. That was no way to know what effect the other orders would have because BFL chose not to share that information with them.  Which is why I decided not to order from them last year, and went with Avalon instead (I have a batch 2 that's already paid for itself in BTC)

Yet again, the greedy persons view of the world.

Again, are you smoking crack?

Why would someone want to just give free money to BFL in exchange for nothing of value? If they want to give to charity there are lot of worthwhile options.

If you're not a little greedy, there's no reason to care about bitcoin at all.  There's no reason to care about money. If they weren't greedy they would never have bought ASICs in the first place. Why would they?

Quote
BFL is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

BFL is damned because their mistakes are in the past.  There is nothing they can do now to rectify the situation, that's what happens.  That's how time works. Mistakes can't always be undone, and the damned stay damned.

Quote
If you listen to the shills on the ASICMiner posts, RoI != profit.  RoI is simply Return ON investment.  EVERY MINER HAS AN ROI, some just have a HIGHER RoI than others.  Using your flawed BTC argument, you'll never attain MORE BTC than you spend unless the network has reached saturation, so you should never again buy another new product.

I just told you. My Batch2 Avolon has already paid for itself, in BTC. And it certainly is true that no one should buy a pre-order at this point in time. Anyway people use "ROI" around here to mean positive ROI. If you make less then you pay it's a negative ROI.

Quote
can't take any more ignorance.

Ignorance of what?

You're just spewing total nonsense.

You claim to be defending BFL, and yet you say they fucked their customers. You admit their customers will never ROI, and that BFL never intended for them too.  You say the customers should have figured it out, and then you say their customers are only complaining because they're "greedy".  Except if they weren't greedy they never would have bought an ASIC in the first place.

That's like saying you shouldn't complain about getting fucked because the only reason it hurt is because you're too uptight for the giant dick to fit comfortably in your asshole.

You're not defending BFL, certainly not in a way that would make sense to the people they fucked.  We seem to agree on the facts, it's just you don't think there's anything wrong with ripping people off if they're "greedy" and stupid.

It's totally bizarre.
<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

I'm skipping ahead cause you are switching logic and misunderstand everything I said and using god knows what, so let's try this:


1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

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August 27, 2013, 10:13:44 PM
 #769

I'm sure I will regret this, but I'm going to answer your question anyway.

927w with a platinum PSU. This is the one area in which BFL is clearly superior. With an identical PSU(Antec 1300w platinum) four BFL Single SCs draw just under 1100w and hash at around 375Gh/s(after mods to their crappy stock cooling). The minirig SC has twin EVGA classified 1500w PSUs and it draws almost exactly 2x this amount.

If you think this is a huge advantage for BFL gear however, then you'd be mistaken. Bitfury has claimed that the first of their finished products have shipped today and this will mark the end of BFL's superiority in the efficiency department, even while the vast majority of their customers victims still await the products they paid for months ago. Operating cost differences between these two products will end up being nearly meaningless IMO. This is why I've chosen to add more hashing power in the form of cheaper and more readily available secondary market Avalons.
Thanks for the reply, looks like you have a very nice setup.  Good luck with it.

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I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
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August 27, 2013, 10:15:43 PM
 #770

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

Here is the formula for ROI:
ROI = (gain from investment - cost of investment) / (cost of investment)

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp
ROI is a measure of profit, not revenue.
"In the above formula "gains from investment", refers to the proceeds obtained from selling the investment of interest. Return on investment is a very popular metric because of its versatility and simplicity. That is, if an investment does not have a positive ROI, or if there are other opportunities with a higher ROI, then the investment should be not be undertaken."

So your example would yield a -99% ROI.

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August 27, 2013, 10:18:33 PM
 #771

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

Here is the formula for ROI:
ROI = (gain from investment - cost of investment) / (cost of investment)

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp
ROI is a measure of profit, not revenue.
"In the above formula "gains from investment", refers to the proceeds obtained from selling the investment of interest. Return on investment is a very popular metric because of its versatility and simplicity. That is, if an investment does not have a positive ROI, or if there are other opportunities with a higher ROI, then the investment should be not be undertaken."

So your example would yield a -99% ROI.
Exactly.  A poor RoI but it is RoI nonetheless.

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I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
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August 27, 2013, 10:20:16 PM
 #772


<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment
Quote
For a single-period review divide the return (net profit) by the resources that were committed (investment):[2]
    return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
    return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]

Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself.

If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99.

$-99/$100 * 100% = -99%

Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?  This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

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August 27, 2013, 10:22:00 PM
 #773


<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment
Quote
For a single-period review divide the return (net profit) by the resources that were committed (investment):[2]
   return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
     return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]

Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself.

If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99.

$-99/$100 * 100% = -99%

Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?  This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.
and yet it is STILL RoI.

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I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
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August 27, 2013, 10:23:13 PM
 #774

Quote
Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.
and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

Obviously when people say something "has an ROI" they mean having a positive ROI.  There's no misunderstanding that unless you are totally delusional.

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August 27, 2013, 10:24:00 PM
 #775

Quote
Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.
and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.
We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
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August 27, 2013, 10:27:34 PM
 #776

Quote
Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.
and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

Well at least you get part of your investment back. With -100 ROI you get nothing, zero (not counting happiness when the unit finally arrives)
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August 27, 2013, 10:31:14 PM
 #777

You seem to be forgetting that BFL repeatedly lied about delivery times and power consumption. This made their products appear to be a far better value than they were. While I agree ASICMiner's products were(and are) overpriced IMO, there's nothing deceitful about maximizing their shareholders' value by keeping their prices high in the absence of any honest or competent competition. The ass rapist award goes to BFL.

Quote
Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.
and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.
We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

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August 27, 2013, 10:32:05 PM
 #778


<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment
Quote
For a single-period review divide the return (net profit) by the resources that were committed (investment):[2]
   return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
     return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]

Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself.

If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99.

$-99/$100 * 100% = -99%

Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?  This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.
and yet it is STILL RoI.
Returns refer to profit. Returns on investment refers to the profit on that investment. Postive ROI means there was some profit on that investment and that is what people mean by generating ROI. A negative number quanitifies the absence of returns, how far away from profit were you. Just like on a balance sheet, a negative number designates the absence of money.

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August 27, 2013, 10:35:08 PM
 #779

Quote
Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.
and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.
We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

There is nothing unintentional about what you described. You just keep saying BFL customers deserved to get fucked because they were greedy and stupid.

And like I said.  That's not a defense of BFL.

You're just telling everyone they should never do business with you, since you think there's nothing wrong with fucking your customers.

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August 27, 2013, 10:38:56 PM
 #780

We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

There is nothing unintentional about what you described. You just keep saying BFL customers deserved to get fucked because they were greedy and stupid.

And like I said.  That's not a defense of BFL.

You're just telling everyone they should never do business with you, since you think there's nothing wrong with fucking your customers.
YOU said ASICMiner customers deserved to get fucked for not doing their research, yet BFL customers DON'T deserved to get fucked for their short-sightedness.  YOU are the one calling it both ways.  I am not defending either side, I am just trying to get you to stop contradicting yourself.

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
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