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Author Topic: BFL announces 28nm 600GH/S blade for $4680  (Read 39307 times)
Ytterbium
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August 27, 2013, 10:47:17 PM

YOU said ASICMiner customers deserved to get fucked for not doing their research, yet BFL customers DON'T deserved to get fucked for their short-sightedness.  YOU are the one calling it both ways.  I am not defending either side, I am just trying to get you to stop contradicting yourself.

All I said about ASICMiner was this:

At least with the block erupters people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them, since they'll be getting them right away. A lot of people buy them just for fun.

That's it. You're lying when you say otherwise.

You really are starting to come across like a raving lunatic. And you've never explained why you're so invested in defending a company that you agree is fucking their own customers. It's like you're just angry about the fact that people are upset that a company is fucking their own customers. It's totally bizzare.

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August 27, 2013, 11:00:15 PM

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)

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Xian01
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August 27, 2013, 11:14:04 PM

 All this talk of ASICMiner product not making ROI is a little bit short-sighted, and leaves me a bit confused at times.

 Look at a timeline 275-360 days away and you begin to get a more reasonable picture, even including the difficulty increases.

 It's a bit amusing that I mumble to myself many times a day with pool payouts set at 0.1 BTC, that I'll say to "Ooh, just ROI'd on another Erupter USB..." (couple hours later) "Oooh ! I just ROI'd on another Erupter USB" (couple more hours later) "Oooh ! I just paid for another Erupter USB..." etc

 Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but I've never been into Bitcoin mining for hopes of a quick ROI; it just happened to work out due to timing and persistence that I'm way in the black.

  I realize that ROIing on 0.1 BTC Erupters is a different matter entirely than ROIing on 2 BTC Erupters, but on a long enough time-line, they WILL pay for themselves. I've calculated that timeline to be about a year, and I'm OK with that all things considered.

 YMMV of course, but just wanted to offer a different perspective.

 *shrugs*
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August 27, 2013, 11:45:07 PM

YOU said ASICMiner customers deserved to get fucked for not doing their research, yet BFL customers DON'T deserved to get fucked for their short-sightedness.  YOU are the one calling it both ways.  I am not defending either side, I am just trying to get you to stop contradicting yourself.

All I said about ASICMiner was this:

At least with the block erupters people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them, since they'll be getting them right away. A lot of people buy them just for fun.

That's it. You're lying when you say otherwise.

You really are starting to come across like a raving lunatic. And you've never explained why you're so invested in defending a company that you agree is fucking their own customers. It's like you're just angry about the fact that people are upset that a company is fucking their own customers. It's totally bizzare.
Your problem is you are stuck on BFL and refuse to open your eyes to the bigger picture.  By your own admission, BFL taking orders from customers that will kill BTC profitability is fucking their customers.  USING THIS SAME LOGIC OF YOURS, every company today that cannot put a product in hand in the next 2 weeks IS DOING THE EXACT SAME THING.  But you cannot believe this, you are stuck on BFL hate and cannot see the forest for the trees.

Your 'people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them' makes me laugh. June 01 2013: BTC = ~$125 Network Hash = ~100TH  Difficulty = ~13M  estimated growth rate = 28% per month.  Using these figures, Difficulty should be 27 million today.  That fantastic USB that sold for 2BTC would be sitting at -45% RoI having only made a whopping 1.1BTC and after 12 months, you have 1.66BTC and earning .02BTC monthly with a 200 million difficulty..  But here was are today... Difficulty is already 65.7 million and climbing fast.  That's an average 72% monthly increase and that 1.1BTC is in reality down to .81BTC and the 12 month outlook is .91 BTC.  BUT!!! They knew what they were getting into.

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
bcp19
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August 28, 2013, 12:06:09 AM

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)
I understand your meaning, but I don't even have a BFL hat on at the moment.

Everyone is so blinded by BFL hate they cannot see the big picture.  While I predicted today to be up close to 1PH network speed, I'm really not off by much(Since the network was less than 150TH when I predicted it).  My 7PH prediction by Nov 1 is looking a bit shaky as more and more companies delay.

When the logic states that it is criminal for BFL to sell so much product that their customers cannot make a positive RoI in 90 days(read fucked them), where does that leave us today?  NO company can guarantee a positive RoI in 90 days, yet ONLY BFL is fucking customers.  By this logic alone ASICMiner has fucked his customers since June cause those USB's will never earn positive RoI.

How many USB's you got Xian??? Since my GPU running ~300MH is getting .0023 daily I'd say yours are getting .0026 a day each maximum.  40 would be ~.104 per day, so your 'every couple hours' means you have like 320-500 of them.  I am confused over the .1 pricing though, last I checked they were at ~.35.

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
Xian01
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August 28, 2013, 12:32:03 AM

I am confused

 This is why many people have you on ignore.
bcp19
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August 28, 2013, 12:34:29 AM

I am confused

 This is why many people have you on ignore.
Am I supposed to care?  You ducked the question... how did you get .1 BTC erupters?

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
mnyonpa
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August 28, 2013, 07:41:19 AM

ASICMINER had an offer several weeks ago where you could order 1 USB Block Erupter at BTC0.1 for every Erupter you had previously ordered with them.

BTC address for donations: 1EEjkAqLXTxscD24D1S6aXWtxPUWxSkHcd
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August 28, 2013, 11:09:57 AM

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)
I understand your meaning, but I don't even have a BFL hat on at the moment.

Everyone is so blinded by BFL hate they cannot see the big picture.  While I predicted today to be up close to 1PH network speed, I'm really not off by much(Since the network was less than 150TH when I predicted it).  My 7PH prediction by Nov 1 is looking a bit shaky as more and more companies delay.

When the logic states that it is criminal for BFL to sell so much product that their customers cannot make a positive RoI in 90 days(read fucked them), where does that leave us today?  NO company can guarantee a positive RoI in 90 days, yet ONLY BFL is fucking customers.  By this logic alone ASICMiner has fucked his customers since June cause those USB's will never earn positive RoI.

How many USB's you got Xian??? Since my GPU running ~300MH is getting .0023 daily I'd say yours are getting .0026 a day each maximum.  40 would be ~.104 per day, so your 'every couple hours' means you have like 320-500 of them.  I am confused over the .1 pricing though, last I checked they were at ~.35.
Your estimations aren't realistic. You need to undershoot so that your estimates fall in line with reality.

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bcp19
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August 28, 2013, 11:30:47 AM

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)
I understand your meaning, but I don't even have a BFL hat on at the moment.

Everyone is so blinded by BFL hate they cannot see the big picture.  While I predicted today to be up close to 1PH network speed, I'm really not off by much(Since the network was less than 150TH when I predicted it).  My 7PH prediction by Nov 1 is looking a bit shaky as more and more companies delay.

When the logic states that it is criminal for BFL to sell so much product that their customers cannot make a positive RoI in 90 days(read fucked them), where does that leave us today?  NO company can guarantee a positive RoI in 90 days, yet ONLY BFL is fucking customers.  By this logic alone ASICMiner has fucked his customers since June cause those USB's will never earn positive RoI.

How many USB's you got Xian??? Since my GPU running ~300MH is getting .0023 daily I'd say yours are getting .0026 a day each maximum.  40 would be ~.104 per day, so your 'every couple hours' means you have like 320-500 of them.  I am confused over the .1 pricing though, last I checked they were at ~.35.
Your estimations aren't realistic. You need to undershoot so that your estimates fall in line with reality.
What if everyone over-estimated?  You'd have a lot less unhappy people right now cause life would be better than they dreamed it would be.

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
PuertoLibre
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August 28, 2013, 11:33:31 AM

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)
I understand your meaning, but I don't even have a BFL hat on at the moment.

Everyone is so blinded by BFL hate they cannot see the big picture.  While I predicted today to be up close to 1PH network speed, I'm really not off by much(Since the network was less than 150TH when I predicted it).  My 7PH prediction by Nov 1 is looking a bit shaky as more and more companies delay.

When the logic states that it is criminal for BFL to sell so much product that their customers cannot make a positive RoI in 90 days(read fucked them), where does that leave us today?  NO company can guarantee a positive RoI in 90 days, yet ONLY BFL is fucking customers.  By this logic alone ASICMiner has fucked his customers since June cause those USB's will never earn positive RoI.

How many USB's you got Xian??? Since my GPU running ~300MH is getting .0023 daily I'd say yours are getting .0026 a day each maximum.  40 would be ~.104 per day, so your 'every couple hours' means you have like 320-500 of them.  I am confused over the .1 pricing though, last I checked they were at ~.35.
Your estimations aren't realistic. You need to undershoot so that your estimates fall in line with reality.
What if everyone over-estimated?  You'd have a lot less unhappy people right now cause life would be better than they dreamed it would be.
If you overestimated then you would be wrong (as you are now) and everyone will have a positive outlook.

If you underestimate, and you are right, then everyone in the present will see this as a baseline for what is to come. Just make sure to create a *very reasonable* baseline.

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bcp19
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August 28, 2013, 12:31:51 PM

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)
I understand your meaning, but I don't even have a BFL hat on at the moment.

Everyone is so blinded by BFL hate they cannot see the big picture.  While I predicted today to be up close to 1PH network speed, I'm really not off by much(Since the network was less than 150TH when I predicted it).  My 7PH prediction by Nov 1 is looking a bit shaky as more and more companies delay.

When the logic states that it is criminal for BFL to sell so much product that their customers cannot make a positive RoI in 90 days(read fucked them), where does that leave us today?  NO company can guarantee a positive RoI in 90 days, yet ONLY BFL is fucking customers.  By this logic alone ASICMiner has fucked his customers since June cause those USB's will never earn positive RoI.

How many USB's you got Xian??? Since my GPU running ~300MH is getting .0023 daily I'd say yours are getting .0026 a day each maximum.  40 would be ~.104 per day, so your 'every couple hours' means you have like 320-500 of them.  I am confused over the .1 pricing though, last I checked they were at ~.35.
Your estimations aren't realistic. You need to undershoot so that your estimates fall in line with reality.
What if everyone over-estimated?  You'd have a lot less unhappy people right now cause life would be better than they dreamed it would be.
If you overestimated then you would be wrong (as you are now) and everyone will have a positive outlook.

If you underestimate, and you are right, then everyone in the present will see this as a baseline for what is to come. Just make sure to create a *very reasonable* baseline.
Truer words are seldom spoken.  The unfortunate reality though is that most poeple understimate and are wrong, which is why the current insane growth = panic.  I'd rather paint a dreary picture of the future and be pleasantly suprised when it does not happen, then paint a rosy picture and end up feeling like the stock market just crashed and I'm standing on top of a building.

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
PuertoLibre
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August 28, 2013, 01:48:08 PM

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)
I understand your meaning, but I don't even have a BFL hat on at the moment.

Everyone is so blinded by BFL hate they cannot see the big picture.  While I predicted today to be up close to 1PH network speed, I'm really not off by much(Since the network was less than 150TH when I predicted it).  My 7PH prediction by Nov 1 is looking a bit shaky as more and more companies delay.

When the logic states that it is criminal for BFL to sell so much product that their customers cannot make a positive RoI in 90 days(read fucked them), where does that leave us today?  NO company can guarantee a positive RoI in 90 days, yet ONLY BFL is fucking customers.  By this logic alone ASICMiner has fucked his customers since June cause those USB's will never earn positive RoI.

How many USB's you got Xian??? Since my GPU running ~300MH is getting .0023 daily I'd say yours are getting .0026 a day each maximum.  40 would be ~.104 per day, so your 'every couple hours' means you have like 320-500 of them.  I am confused over the .1 pricing though, last I checked they were at ~.35.
Your estimations aren't realistic. You need to undershoot so that your estimates fall in line with reality.
What if everyone over-estimated?  You'd have a lot less unhappy people right now cause life would be better than they dreamed it would be.
If you overestimated then you would be wrong (as you are now) and everyone will have a positive outlook.

If you underestimate, and you are right, then everyone in the present will see this as a baseline for what is to come. Just make sure to create a *very reasonable* baseline.
Truer words are seldom spoken.  The unfortunate reality though is that most poeple understimate and are wrong, which is why the current insane growth = panic.  I'd rather paint a dreary picture of the future and be pleasantly suprised when it does not happen, then paint a rosy picture and end up feeling like the stock market just crashed and I'm standing on top of a building.
Well, you won't get any disagreement on that.

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Bicknellski
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August 28, 2013, 04:07:36 PM

Maybe we actually need a subforum for companies that are reputable and want to resolve issues and based on an agreed to set of business standards?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282030.0

Dogie trust abuse, spam, bullying, conspiracy posts & insults to forum members. Ask the mods or admins to move Dogie's spam or off topic stalking posts to the link above.
mechs
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August 28, 2013, 07:01:51 PM

All this talk of ASICMiner product not making ROI is a little bit short-sighted, and leaves me a bit confused at times.

 Look at a timeline 275-360 days away and you begin to get a more reasonable picture, even including the difficulty increases.

 It's a bit amusing that I mumble to myself many times a day with pool payouts set at 0.1 BTC, that I'll say to "Ooh, just ROI'd on another Erupter USB..." (couple hours later) "Oooh ! I just ROI'd on another Erupter USB" (couple more hours later) "Oooh ! I just paid for another Erupter USB..." etc

 Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but I've never been into Bitcoin mining for hopes of a quick ROI; it just happened to work out due to timing and persistence that I'm way in the black.

  I realize that ROIing on 0.1 BTC Erupters is a different matter entirely than ROIing on 2 BTC Erupters, but on a long enough time-line, they WILL pay for themselves. I've calculated that timeline to be about a year, and I'm OK with that all things considered.

 YMMV of course, but just wanted to offer a different perspective.

 *shrugs*
Xian,
  They absolutely will not pay for themselves ever at 0.35BTC each.  Even if you take the time out to infinity, the power costs will exceed the BTC produces at the current BTC/Fiat exchange rates.  I supposed if BTC valu increased significantly more that would change, but in that case you would still be better of just holding the BTC than buying the eruptors.
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August 28, 2013, 07:05:00 PM

I supposed if BTC value increased significantly more that would change, but in that case you would still be better of just holding the BTC than buying the eruptors.

 You are probably right. Not going to argue the point.

 Either way, I'm having fun Smiley
bcp19
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August 28, 2013, 07:07:09 PM

I supposed if BTC value increased significantly more that would change, but in that case you would still be better of just holding the BTC than buying the eruptors.

 You are probably right. Not going to argue the point.

 Either way, I'm having fun Smiley
I have an interesting question for you:

We know the price of BTC was ~$6.50-7.00 on July 1, 2012 and that a 1.5TH mini-rig was selling for $29,899.  Let's call the BTC price at $6.50, which would be ~4600 BTC.  Your choices are to either Buy a mini-rig and wait for it to ship a year later or store your 4600 BTC until June 2013 when you can buy 2300 USB block erupters.  We know now the mini-rig order would ship on Aug 5th and the 2300 Block Erupters would be in hand within a week.  If these were your only choices, which do you feel is the better value?


I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
peonminer
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August 28, 2013, 07:09:53 PM

I supposed if BTC value increased significantly more that would change, but in that case you would still be better of just holding the BTC than buying the eruptors.

 You are probably right. Not going to argue the point.

 Either way, I'm having fun Smiley
I have an interesting question for you:

We know the price of BTC was ~$6.50-7.00 on July 1, 2012 and that a 1.5TH mini-rig was selling for $29,899.  Let's call the BTC price at $6.50, which would be ~4600 BTC.  Your choices are to either Buy a mini-rig and wait for it to ship a year later or store your 4600 BTC until June 2013 when you can buy 2300 USB block erupters.  We know now the mini-rig order would ship on Aug 5th and the 2300 Block Erupters would be in hand within a week.  If these were your only choices, which do you feel is the better value?


The first hind sight logic i've ever seen from bcp19... oh wait....
bcp19
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August 28, 2013, 07:14:37 PM

I supposed if BTC value increased significantly more that would change, but in that case you would still be better of just holding the BTC than buying the eruptors.

 You are probably right. Not going to argue the point.

 Either way, I'm having fun Smiley
I have an interesting question for you:

We know the price of BTC was ~$6.50-7.00 on July 1, 2012 and that a 1.5TH mini-rig was selling for $29,899.  Let's call the BTC price at $6.50, which would be ~4600 BTC.  Your choices are to either Buy a mini-rig and wait for it to ship a year later or store your 4600 BTC until June 2013 when you can buy 2300 USB block erupters.  We know now the mini-rig order would ship on Aug 5th and the 2300 Block Erupters would be in hand within a week.  If these were your only choices, which do you feel is the better value?


The first hind sight logic i've ever seen from bcp19... oh wait....
It's a very simple question, can't you answer it?  We already know all the answers, so which do you feel was the better value?

I do not suffer fools gladly... "Captain!  We're surrounded!"
I embrace my inner Kool-Aid.
Jutarul
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August 28, 2013, 08:49:20 PM

Really, so you're claiming that 20 * 13 = 1500?  Wow...
the typo is irrelevant for the conclusion. It didn't lead to vastly false numbers.

But lets go back to the USD assessment.  The only way your figures work out is if you have 100% prediction ability or you use hindsight, neither of which are considered acceptable investing methodologies.  
No. An investment into bitcoin mining is a way to buy future bitcoins at current market price. Buyers of the August 2012 minirig bought the prospect of earning future bitcoins (>3000BTC) by spending bitcoins (3000BTC). The fact that they may have spent USD is irrelevant, because it is a different savings vehicle and looking at BTC/USD is only relevant for overhead costs (rent,electricity) which are not priced in bitcoin.
Due to delivery failures that prospect has shrunk to less than the bitcoins spent for buyers who haven't received any hardware to date. On top of that, buyers of ASICMINER now have the alternative to spent 420 BTC on an equivalent amount of hashing power - and that's where the profit loss becomes apparent, because hardware on hand is usually sold around prices similar to the expected ROI.

Once again, your entire premise is flawed.  If you (or anyone) were so good at predicting the bitcoin price back then, why are you not a multi-billionaire?  If you knew BTC was going to go up, especially as much as it did, why were you not mortgaging the house, selling your mother and pimping out your cats and dogs to buy BTC?  You'd be an @#$%@% idiot not to... yet you didn't, why?  

Hindsight investing is great, except it's a bunch of shit, which is why comparing the price in BTC of anything in August 2012 to something in 2013 is a bunch of shit.
I understand that you would like to discredit the validity of DeathAndTaxes' assessment. However, this is not hindsight investing. That is market forces at play. Would the USD/BTC be $10/BTC right now, the eruptor blade would still cost 420 BTC, because that's what the expected ROI is in terms of future bitcoins.

I urge you, please don't try to misguide new people coming into the mining game by playing on their insufficient understanding between the relationship of the exchange rates vs. the viability of mining investments. Your company has done enough harm to the mining community by trapping/destroying a vast amount of capital with unfulfilled promises.

ADDENDUM: topic was moved: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283286.msg3029211#msg3029211

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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