NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[Jean-Luc]

Code:

[2014-02-14 18:23:55.255] Database is at level 13
[2014-02-14 18:23:55.267] DEBUG: Will apply sql:
ALTER TABLE block DROP COLUMN IF EXISTS index
[2014-02-14 18:26:26.984] DEBUG: Will apply sql:
ALTER TABLE transaction DROP COLUMN IF EXISTS index
[2014-02-14 18:33:32.807] Updated database is at level 15

Didn't the additional indexes help?

Read the above SQL once again more carefully

[CIYAM]

What's your hope in having such feature?

It actually would "kill" the first "use case" for the Nxt Scripting system (which was to "pay dividends to asset holders).  

[Eadeqa]

It turns out the transition to fractional amounts, which is required for reducing the minimum fee, will not be that simple. It would require adding a new transaction type, because the current ordinary payment transaction stores amounts and fees with 1 NXT precision, not multiplied by 100 as in the account balance. So it will take longer to implement and test. The positive side is that while doing that we can make the fractional part allow amounts much lower than 0.01, so we will achieve much higher divisibility.

We don't really need too much divisibility. Perhaps 1.00000 at max?

[ChuckOne]

What's your hope in having such feature?

It actually would "kill" the first "use case" for the Nxt Scripting system (which was to "pay dividends to asset holders).  

Shouldn't that be client issue? Just sending n transactions instead of 1; n = number of asset holders.

[Randy pNut]

Does anyone know about poloni ex?

Are they new?

Is it a initiative of the community nxt?

What country are they located?

No idea about the country,

but the admin is someone nice, i have no issue at all using the service.

It's a pretty unknown platform but with potential to going very well.
they also have a giveaway service, if you send him some nxt (or any other) asking to put them into the giveaway: i can confirm he do.

[xibeijan]

I've heard that NXT is working on a zerocoin implementation.

If so, how do you plan to address these limitations?

Zerocoin has a number of serious limitations:
- It uses cutting-edge cryptography which may turn out to be insecure, and which is understood by relatively few people (compared to ECDSA, for example).
- It produces large (20kbyte) signatures that would bloat the blockchain (or create risk if stuffed in external storage).
- It requires a trusted party to initiate its accumulator. If that party cheats, they can steal coin. (Perhaps fixable with more cutting-edge crypto.)
- Validation is very slow (can process about 2tx per second on a fast CPU), which is a major barrier to deployment in Bitcoin as each full node must validate every transaction.
- The large transactions and slow validation also means costly transactions, which will reduce the anonymity set size and potentially make ZC usage unavailable to random members of the public who are merely casually concerned about their privacy.
- Uses an accumulator which grows forever and has no pruning. In practice this means we'd need to switch accumulators periodically to reduce the working set size, reducing the anonymity set size. And potentially creating big UTXO bloat problems if the horizon on an accumulator isn't set in advance.

[CIYAM]

Shouldn't that be client issue? Just sending n transactions instead of 1; n = number of asset holders.

That would cost you n NXT at the moment.

That is a little expensive don't you think (and even if the fee was reduced it will still be very wasteful if you couldn't "compress" the tx to 1 amount and n accounts)?

[ChuckOne]

Shouldn't that be client issue? Just sending n transactions instead of 1; n = number of asset holders.

That would cost you n NXT at the moment.

That is a little expensive don't you think (and even if the fee was reduced it will still be very wasteful if you couldn't "compress" the tx to 1 amount and n accounts)?

Why should a multi transaction of the size of n transactions be cheaper than n transactions alone?

[ChuckOne]

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=2584657662098653454

24 Million NXT? In one account. Holy crap.

[jl777]

Berlin conf
Bitcoin conf is like a scifi convention with business cards and almost without women. All of them are just nerds in a different stadium of age or wealth. I had to spend 12 hours in 11 buses to get from South Bohemia to Berlin, but all was OK, now snow, so no complications. Me (salsacz), l8rrie and Bitventurere bought network passes, so we could talk business at the conf  hall, while admiral.fu, our sponsor who got t-shirts for us, flew from Sweden and bought a ticket for sessions. I brought business cards, they were essential, + stickers and infographic. It was also useful, some people wanted to talk about myths… But there was no problem to talk about PoS distribution, all Bitcoin lovers now know PoW is not perfect. Bitventurer (Hamburk) brought flyers and one surprise and l8rrie (local), it was our secret weapon, a developer of Asset exchange with very fluent english and native german was very useful Btw I was buying not only a conf ticket, but also a hotel by Bitcoins, right before the crash, so I was lucky to sell all my Bitcoins

The job of Nxt conf ambassador is very exhausting, you spend all day by talking about Nxt with tenths of guys. So your legs suffer, your voice and if you are not using your native language, the brain is tired too. So after first day I even didn’t have any dinner, I just passed after I came to the hotel room. It is very different than homeoffice and such jobs should be paid by gold Especially if you are also dealing with real business and need to decide how much you can spend on bribes for conference organisators. So we gave away one Nxt t-shirt. And little more.

What were the hot topics?
1.   You can build new coins on top of Nxt. We would really like to have some application for that, so you can create a new coin by clicking at one button
2.   Green energy
3.   100% Proof of stake
4.   Zerocoin protocol, Asset exchange
5.   Decentralized apps – twitter, facebook, email, storage, all decentralized and built on top of the Nxt
6.   Decentralized leadership and community
7.   Blockchain shrinking
8.   Positives over Ethereum
9.   DACs, Smart contracts, Lego platform from Ethereum
10.   Decentralized Games, Poker

Which coins were at the conference?
-   Bitcoin – but only some miners..
-   Mastercoin – Mastercoin guys are very kind. We had nice chats, it looks like they are little disappointed with their situation. They have some plans to the future, but right now they even don’t advise to use it. So no competition, but very friendly guys
-   Nxt – 4 ambassadors + 1 guy from the topic, about 2 holders and 10 potential buyers, maybe more. Tons of people talked about buying Nxt so they could catch the train
How many naked ladies attended a convention?
- 0
I had a funny talk with a guy from Iceland mining company. But he didn’t know it. He was excited as he could answer my questions, but inside me I was rofling how screwed Bitcoins are thanks to this centralized machine. It is based on unfair pow mining that is much cheaper on Iceland. So it will become centralized. Another thing is, you can buy 1 ghash for a year for 8 Dollars. So it is now similar to Nxt. Buying their gigahashes is a proof of stake system, however leading to the centralization.

There weren’t a lot of journalists. But thanks to RT we got a nice attention on TV. A 4 minutes long spot about Bitcoins and Bitcoin conference was on air every hour in the news on RT. The spot from the conf was quite short and then with a little interview with some guy, but then the moderator went to the Bitcoin bar. I was quite surprised how sofisticated, informed and well instroduced were Bitcoins, however there was no place for altcoins or Nxt. Even the interview with BTC China guy wasn’t chosen.

The most interesting guy was probably the CEO from Cryptoventures, an experienced manager, who was born in Italy and the lived in Argentina, Spain and… London? L8rrie will surely provide much detailed info about discussed stuff. Nxt’s altcoins will become a currency in African states and in Casinos. This guy will help provide contacts. We need to provide an easy platform for creating and mainteaning such coins. So the new topic for Nxt article is definitely „How can coins built on top of Nxt’s platform become a national currency and how could they be used, mainteaned and regulated?“ + the same thing with casinos.

We talked with a lot of companies about coordination with Nxt. Or to get more dev contacts, we we would be able to build all decentralized internet on top of the Nxt. We intriduced Nxt to..30-50 people? So now we can cooperate with OpenCoin, Hive, BitAngels, Dots for Bits… Sadly there reren’t exchanges, only real life german and BTC China Also we have new contacts for crypto conventions, so we are invited to San Francisco (who will attend?), to Bitcoin Camp (Nevada?) and we also spent hours with the Texas guys. It was important to intriduce Nxt to all consultants, advisors and journalists, so now they can talk about Nxt to other more important persons. It was interesting to bank guys. There was a young ambassadors from Deutsche Bundesbank. They are trying to get to the cryptoworld somehow so they are researching the situation.

I am still too tired to think about it from the higher perspective. So just a little conclusion. We need to send 2-4 ambassadors to every Bitcoin conf/convention, it is really essential.

Fantastic job!!! I know how tiring tradeshows are, without the naked women to look at it is just all work.

I only dreamed about an entire country using crypto as their national currency. It sounds like many smaller countries are ready now!

I propose a bounty for a coin development kit. It needs to make creating a new coin push button easy. I am not sure even how it should be implemented, but it needs to be something that can be used as a replacement currency for an entire country. I guess QR codes on mobile apps to do payments would work for a realworld economy. The more customization options the better.

I will start the bounty with 25000 NXT. If you also like the coin development kit idea, please make a directed donation. just post txid and amount sent to NXTcommunityfund 13776816462073143763

James

[kknk808]

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=2584657662098653454

24 Million NXT? In one account. Holy crap.

there are other accounts with a lot too. It's a lot more spread out compared to the early days though

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

[Anon136]

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=2584657662098653454

24 Million NXT? In one account. Holy crap.

yea 2.4% is too much of the stake. that person needs to sell for the sake of the security of the network.

[jl777]

Berlin conf
I am still too tired to think about it from the higher perspective. So just a little conclusion. We need to send 2-4 ambassadors to every Bitcoin conf/convention, it is really essential.

Fantastic recap, Salsa... thank you for your hard work!

We should always have someone close to these conventions, this will minimize the costs. Just making that ONE key contact is all that is needed to pay for these events.

Without attending this conference, we wouldnt be discussing building a country's currency on top of NXT. It has a giant advantage over paper money. It cant be counterfeited as long as the NXT network is secure! secondarily no costs for printing.

As soon as the first country, or village, builds a currency on top of NXT, all realworld items will be priced in NXT
I see the Asset Name space getting very crowded.

James

[CIYAM]

Why should a multi transaction of the size of n transactions be cheaper than n transactions alone?

If the amount is the same to each output then it would be much smaller and even if not you only need 1 sig for all the outputs rather than 1 sig per output (so yes it should be a lot cheaper).

[ChuckOne]

Why should a multi transaction of the size of n transactions be cheaper than n transactions alone?

If the amount is the same to each output then it would be much smaller and even if not you only need 1 sig for all the outputs rather than 1 sig per output (so yes it should be a lot cheaper).

Depends which cost function you take into consideration. The size of the block part occupied by a multi-transaction would still be O(n) as are n transaction. So, yes, it could be cheaper by a factor of 2 or so. Calculation of the sig is still O(n), too.

[CoinTropolis_JustaBitTime]

Berlin conf
I am still too tired to think about it from the higher perspective. So just a little conclusion. We need to send 2-4 ambassadors to every Bitcoin conf/convention, it is really essential.

Fantastic recap, Salsa... thank you for your hard work!

We should always have someone close to these conventions, this will minimize the costs. Just making that ONE key contact is all that is needed to pay for these events.

Without attending this conference, we wouldnt be discussing building a country's currency on top of NXT. It has a giant advantage over paper money. It cant be counterfeited as long as the NXT network is secure! secondarily no costs for printing.

As soon as the first country, or village, builds a currency on top of NXT, all realworld items will be priced in NXT
I see the Asset Name space getting very crowded.

James

Salsa is exactly right, it takes 3 or 4 people to handle a conference the way we need it done.  The Miami event was 1500+ people, there was barely enough time to meet with all the major players let alone meeting with different crypto supporters. We made it happen, however, additional resources would have gotten us even further.

I'd also recommend reading Nikel's summaries, it's a great way to provide real time information back to the community to take action. It would be nice if we could put together some type of document outlining best practices.

For example, the best way to meet everyone in a circle is asking the primary to introduce you.  When I would talk to someone at the conference, I'd find out who they knew and ask for an introduction. Networking 101 goes a long way when you're surrounded by a crowd that might not be as familiar with how to control the flow at larger trade shows.

[CIYAM]

Depends which cost function you take into consideration. The size of the block part occupied by a multi-transaction would still be O(n) as are n transaction. So, yes, it could be cheaper by a factor of 2 or so.

A key thing that Nxt *has* over its rivals is fast txs. If I have a tx with 100 outputs and 1 sig vs. 100 outputs and 100 sigs then the latter is going to be slower both in terms of data size and sig verification.

So I think that Nxt should allow such more compact txs in order to provide the "leanest and meanest" tx system in the crypto currency world.

[jl777]

how much will nxt be worth this time nxt year???

At least 10 times more. Possibly much much more.

10 time more means 500 million market cap = where Litecoin stands now (before the crash)

Litecoin? Really? I think we are much better than Litecoin. We should be competing with Ripple next year.

So my bet is $2 in 2015 

ripple valuation is total fiction. They have only distributed 7 billion XRP, so divide the crazy market cap by 14. Even after that it is not a liquid market, of the 7 billion most of it was acquired at little to no cost. Look at trading volume. A more realistic valuation of XRP would put it at the bottom of the top 10, maybe not even that.

I hear rumors of big deals they are working on, but until it materializes, it is not very practical.

The real competition for NXT are the various fiats!

James

[Eadeqa]

No response to this from  "Zerocoin" proponents?

I've heard that NXT is working on a zerocoin implementation.

If so, how do you plan to address these limitations?

Zerocoin has a number of serious limitations:
- It uses cutting-edge cryptography which may turn out to be insecure, and which is understood by relatively few people (compared to ECDSA, for example).
- It produces large (20kbyte) signatures that would bloat the blockchain (or create risk if stuffed in external storage).
- It requires a trusted party to initiate its accumulator. If that party cheats, they can steal coin. (Perhaps fixable with more cutting-edge crypto.)
- Validation is very slow (can process about 2tx per second on a fast CPU), which is a major barrier to deployment in Bitcoin as each full node must validate every transaction.
- The large transactions and slow validation also means costly transactions, which will reduce the anonymity set size and potentially make ZC usage unavailable to random members of the public who are merely casually concerned about their privacy.
- Uses an accumulator which grows forever and has no pruning. In practice this means we'd need to switch accumulators periodically to reduce the working set size, reducing the anonymity set size. And potentially creating big UTXO bloat problems if the horizon on an accumulator isn't set in advance.

[ChuckOne]

Depends which cost function you take into consideration. The size of the block part occupied by a multi-transaction would still be O(n) as are n transaction. So, yes, it could be cheaper by a factor of 2 or so.

A key thing that Nxt *has* over its rivals is fast txs. If I have a tx with 100 outputs and 1 sig vs. 100 outputs and 100 sigs then the latter is going to be slower both in terms of data size and sig verification.

Size maybe. Verification depends on the runtime complexity of the verification function.

Do not think that calculating 1 sig has constant runtime = O(1). It should be depend on the size of the to-be-verified payload.