NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[dzarmush]

I'm considering locking this thread on page 2100.  What are everyones' thoughts?

I don't want to interrupt communication, but I think we would make more progress if we were better organized.

Poll - https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=839

What's the point? How we would make more progress in a new thread? Also it's very easy to find any info when everything in one thread. Voted no.

[1715022229]

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[bitcoinpaul]

Nxt is mentioned here - http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2393940 (It Will Cost You Nothing to 'Kill' a Proof-of-Stake Crypto-Currency)

Resume of this paper: All PoS coins will die except Nxt coz it's 90% attack-proof.

CfB, is Nxt 90% attack-proof?

[salsacz]

NXT FUNDING COMMITTEE VOTE IS NOW UNDERWAY UNTIL 12:15 AM MARCH 8 (UTC)

Does that mean that votes are limited to nominees and candidates by default ? just wondering.

Everybody gets to vote.  I have edited my original post to clarify.

I had hoped to have this better organized at this point, but I've had a bad week.  Sorry.

Hey, guys, if you would, please edit your quote of my vote post so only the corrected original one shows up in the thread here.  Thx.

I wouldn't mind to have even 10 committee members

[NxtMinnow]

I'm considering locking this thread on page 2100.  What are everyones' thoughts?

I don't want to interrupt communication, but I think we would make more progress if we were better organized.

Poll - https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=839

I didnt realize our progress was so slow...
I find it really convenient that everything NXT is here. If I have to keep going to many different places, there is a much larger chance that I will miss something.
Please dont kill this thread. Its cool. Its history.
All that would happen is that someone (me) will create a new thread, so it wont serve any purpose.

James

Locking this thread would be an absolutely terrible decision.  Aren't we all about the freedom to do what we want, why force people to a certain forum.  We are getting tons of stuff done here and other threads, leave it.

Don't even think about locking this thread; that would be an unmitigated disaster.  To those that think communication is fragmented on this thread, just wait until 5,000 existing users attempt to transition to a new forum and then complain about fragmented communication.

If people don't like reading through this thread and staying up to date: sign up for the email newsletter at http://www.nxtcoins.nl and stop complaining about this awesome and productive thread.

[Come-from-Beyond]

CfB, is Nxt 90% attack-proof?

Current implementation not.

[NxtMinnow]

James,

I have a few more questions about your gateway, if you have time to answer. I am starting to realize what the capabilities of this gateway are. This understanding raised the question: If someone will be able to send an external asset to the gateway and it is then represented by an internal asset that can be traded on the AE, what happens to the external asset? Is it held in a collective wallet, like an escrow account or security account? Or is the external asset even transferred at all and the AE generated internal asset is just a promise to pay, and the holder of the External asset would still have to be trusted to deliver the asset once traded?  I know you are busy, and hate to keep bugging you, I just was pondering the implications of this.

I am doing a nearly atomic exchange of the actual crypto with NXT asset. The only glitch could be during an internal transfer, the NXT asset issuance fails for some reason. I havent had a chance to implement full error handling, it is only 10 days old, but when all the error cases are handled, all the confirmed crypto deposits will match up to confirmed NXT asset transfers.

The actual crypto is put into a multisig account. That is why it took me so long to get the alpha release. I had to tediously construct rawtransactions based on looking at all of the unspent outputs, which I had to recreate since bitcoind (at least dogecoind) didnt seem to properly track multisig transactions.

The AE asset therefore represents not just a promise to pay, but there will be a publicly visible multisig acct with the funds there. There will be a gatewaychain.info analogous to blockchain.info where you can verify deposits and withdrawals and their intermediate state.

To add more weight to the promise to redeem the asset for the crypto, multiple (3) gateways are simultaneously monitoring the NXT blockchain for asset transfers back that are coming in for redemption. All gateways query their local bitcoind and generate a proposed rawtransaction and a signed rawtransaction. Every single byte of the raw transaction must be identical between all of the gateways, then the selected gateway signs the already signed rawtransaction from one of the other gateways and submits it to the network.

I will be creating NODEcoin 2.0, which in addition to rewarding people for forging, will be actively validating all gateway transactions and will generate alerts if it ever detects any funny business. As long as the gateway monitors are happy, all is well. I dont expect more than an occasional yellow alert, when there is a network glitch and a transaction has to be manually resent. With the malleability issue, we need to be careful about blindly trusting any request for manual payment.

As long as the NXT community operated gateways continue to function and two of the independent gateway operators dont collude, all the withdrawals are assured. In case the deposit balance in the multisig accounts get too big, we can always fragment them and have dozens of multisig accts, each with a small fraction of the overall balance. Minimize the size of the acct to remove temptation to steal it, and require cooperation of another party to pull of the withdrawal.

I would think that most people would assess the security of this setup as much more secure than trusting some centralized exchange from going rogue or being hacked (c-cex for 300 BTC, poloniex for 150 BTC both this past week) or going belly up (Mtgox, etc).

Properly implemented after thorough testing and review, there would be no practical difference between trading a NXT AE crypto asset or the real thing. We will get the automated gateway so reliable that we will be able to offer NDIC (NXT deposit insurance), max 10000 NXT per person 100000 NXT total. So if the gateway ever causes a loss, there will be the insurance to cover some of the losses.

James

P.S. Can some marketing types take all this and make it nice and presentable?

Hi jl777,

This marketing type would be honoured to take all of this and make it nice and presentable.  I will send it to salsacz for review this weekend before it goes back to the forums or out to the media.

Sincerely,  Brian Snyder aka NxtMinnow

[salsacz]

Brian et James:

[2Kool4Skewl]

CfB, is Nxt 90% attack-proof?

Current implementation not.

Is BCNext planning on changing TF to make it ninety percent attack proof?

[jl777]

James,

I have a few more questions about your gateway, if you have time to answer. I am starting to realize what the capabilities of this gateway are. This understanding raised the question: If someone will be able to send an external asset to the gateway and it is then represented by an internal asset that can be traded on the AE, what happens to the external asset? Is it held in a collective wallet, like an escrow account or security account? Or is the external asset even transferred at all and the AE generated internal asset is just a promise to pay, and the holder of the External asset would still have to be trusted to deliver the asset once traded?  I know you are busy, and hate to keep bugging you, I just was pondering the implications of this.

I am doing a nearly atomic exchange of the actual crypto with NXT asset. The only glitch could be during an internal transfer, the NXT asset issuance fails for some reason. I havent had a chance to implement full error handling, it is only 10 days old, but when all the error cases are handled, all the confirmed crypto deposits will match up to confirmed NXT asset transfers.

The actual crypto is put into a multisig account. That is why it took me so long to get the alpha release. I had to tediously construct rawtransactions based on looking at all of the unspent outputs, which I had to recreate since bitcoind (at least dogecoind) didnt seem to properly track multisig transactions.

The AE asset therefore represents not just a promise to pay, but there will be a publicly visible multisig acct with the funds there. There will be a gatewaychain.info analogous to blockchain.info where you can verify deposits and withdrawals and their intermediate state.

To add more weight to the promise to redeem the asset for the crypto, multiple (3) gateways are simultaneously monitoring the NXT blockchain for asset transfers back that are coming in for redemption. All gateways query their local bitcoind and generate a proposed rawtransaction and a signed rawtransaction. Every single byte of the raw transaction must be identical between all of the gateways, then the selected gateway signs the already signed rawtransaction from one of the other gateways and submits it to the network.

I will be creating NODEcoin 2.0, which in addition to rewarding people for forging, will be actively validating all gateway transactions and will generate alerts if it ever detects any funny business. As long as the gateway monitors are happy, all is well. I dont expect more than an occasional yellow alert, when there is a network glitch and a transaction has to be manually resent. With the malleability issue, we need to be careful about blindly trusting any request for manual payment.

As long as the NXT community operated gateways continue to function and two of the independent gateway operators dont collude, all the withdrawals are assured. In case the deposit balance in the multisig accounts get too big, we can always fragment them and have dozens of multisig accts, each with a small fraction of the overall balance. Minimize the size of the acct to remove temptation to steal it, and require cooperation of another party to pull of the withdrawal.

I would think that most people would assess the security of this setup as much more secure than trusting some centralized exchange from going rogue or being hacked (c-cex for 300 BTC, poloniex for 150 BTC both this past week) or going belly up (Mtgox, etc).

Properly implemented after thorough testing and review, there would be no practical difference between trading a NXT AE crypto asset or the real thing. We will get the automated gateway so reliable that we will be able to offer NDIC (NXT deposit insurance), max 10000 NXT per person 100000 NXT total. So if the gateway ever causes a loss, there will be the insurance to cover some of the losses.

James

P.S. Can some marketing types take all this and make it nice and presentable?

Hi jl777,

This marketing type would be honoured to take all of this and make it nice and presentable.  I will send it to salsacz for review this weekend before it goes back to the forums or out to the media.

Sincerely,  Brian Snyder aka NxtMinnow

Thanks!
We are still a ways from release, but might as well start getting press for it.

[jl777]

CfB, is Nxt 90% attack-proof?

Current implementation not.

Is BCNext planning on changing TF to make it ninety percent attack proof?

Ciyam and CfB just figured out how to get it implemented. It will be one of the first two NIP (NXT improvement Proposals) submitted to jean-luc. He has defacto veto power over NIP.

The basic process of creating these NIP has been worked out, subject to community approval.

For things that affect security or are non-controversial, a NIP is submitted to jean-luc after both Ciyam and I come to agreement on it. Since we hardly ever agree on anything, it is safe to say that if we both agree, then it must not be such a bad thing to do. jean-luc is the third vote and he can veto by not implementing it, but I doubt he would stall on security related NIP.

So, the first two NIP we are submitting are to implement TF using Alias to link URI (IP or DNS) address to NXT account. This allows nodes to directly send to the IP address of the next account that will forge.

The other NIP is to seal the potential transaction malleability issue. Not sure what the exact fix is (probably hashing more of the block?), but I am sure that jean-luc will know how to do it.

If anybody objects to this process for security related NIP, please object now.

For non-security related NIP, it would go through a similar process, but it will also require NXT community consensus. We are planning on using VS for the polling.

James

[zorke]

I'm considering locking this thread on page 2100.  What are everyones' thoughts?

I don't want to interrupt communication, but I think we would make more progress if we were better organized.

Poll - https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=839

I like this thread and I would like to stay here. Like somebody said, we get a lot of random views by this just being one of the longest threads on BCT. Also I see this thread as a part of history.

[ChuckOne]

CfB, is Nxt 90% attack-proof?

Current implementation not.

Is BCNext planning on changing TF to make it ninety percent attack proof?

AFAIK, yes. He wants to introduce the penalty solution.

[2Kool4Skewl]

CfB, is Nxt 90% attack-proof?

Current implementation not.

Is BCNext planning on changing TF to make it ninety percent attack proof?

Ciyam and CfB just figured out how to get it implemented. It will be one of the first two NIP (NXT improvement Proposals) submitted to jean-luc. He has defacto veto power over NIP.

The basic process of creating these NIP has been worked out, subject to community approval.

For things that affect security or are non-controversial, a NIP is submitted to jean-luc after both Ciyam and I come to agreement on it. Since we hardly ever agree on anything, it is safe to say that if we both agree, then it must not be such a bad thing to do. jean-luc is the third vote and he can veto by not implementing it, but I doubt he would stall on security related NIP.

So, the first two NIP we are submitting are to implement TF using Alias to link URI (IP or DNS) address to NXT account. This allows nodes to directly send to the IP address of the next account that will forge.

The other NIP is to seal the potential transaction malleability issue. Not sure what the exact fix is (probably hashing more of the block?), but I am sure that jean-luc will know how to do it.

If anybody objects to this process for security related NIP, please object now.

For non-security related NIP, it would go through a similar process, but it will also require NXT community consensus. We are planning on using VS for the polling.

James

I think I understand.  The transparency that BCNext was referring to was linking the account to a certain IP.  Correct?

[oldnbold]

@jl777

i was thinking.. could you set up a gateway for krona and for auroracoin for when auroracoin is airdropped.. giving the people of iceland a decentralised way of trading auroracoin.. as far as i know they wont be able to sell it for USD and trade into krona due to the currency laws.. it would be big publicity for nxt.. and at worst you get 330,000 people who find out what nxt is even if they do just cash out and AUR collapses! it could go a very long way to helping the whole project work...!

As long as it is a bitcoind fork, I estimate a new coin can be added faster than you can download the blockchain. Well, maybe for a brand new coin it will be a close race. Just one file needs to be changed with the gateways addresses and public keys and a few other coin specific details.

Then of course, it has to be tested. Maybe somebody can keep a list of all the coins we should support? I cant do this all by myself.
Can somebody be the project manager? There are many parts of this, but you dont need to be technical, just organized and a little management experience. I know a lot of you are lurking and intimidated by the tech talk, but this is a task of keeping track of the things that need to be done and communicating. The more of this I can offload, the more time I will have for coding. Just saying.

James

As one of those lurkers I'd welcome the chance to contribute; so if you're still looking for someone to be project manager, I'd be very happy to get involved. I read the thread several times a day and have got the time. My communication skills and management experience should be ok, but I may have to ask some initial, elementary technical questions in order to fully understand what's required.

[superresistant]

Speaking of Iceland...
I’m considering the marketing effect if we tested a NxtCoin as national currency in Christiania, Copenhagen. It’s a self-proclaimed autonomous neighbourhood of about 850 residents. But Christiania is visited by 500.000 tourists every year.
The media attention that Christiania gets, will benefit us. And vice versa. And in quite a few ways we share common grounds. It's like the old meets the new.
Christiania is a social experiment in it's origin. Talking decision making, it's a live version of our Nxt community. Chrisitanists make consensus-based decisions in matters that concern their whole community. OMG, it's long haired, and I admire it, the strength of discussing until consensus is reached. In difficult matters, this could be the next morning, or half a year. But they always get there.
Customers in Christiania choose whether they want their change in Danish Kroner or LØN (the Christianian currency since 1997). Christiania has it's own coin! - but they might be interested in going digital. Christiania has strong feelings about the environment, and with Nxt “making Greenpeace happy” and all, it would be a perfect fit.
Christiania "consensus"-meetings are closed for outsiders, but I am pretty sure that I can get in + bring another from the Nxt community with me, using my contacts. Even if the whole of Christiania does not agree on making a unique LØN NxtCoin their local currency, the shops in Christiania could easily begin accepting Nxt.
Imagine the media attention, if a society like Christiania agreed on making Nxt - or a coin made on top of Nxt - their "national currency". If "INTERESTED", let me know.

I've been in Christiania, I know some people that live there like real hippies. It's an amazing place but I heard that the government destroyed the place and expropriated everyone. I have no news from the people I know since (they don't have Facebook).

[bitcoinpaul]

Ciyam and CfB just figured out how to get it implemented.

Biggest news since hours.

[redsn0w]

TestNXT please

18124369775920592423

Sent 5K TestNxt  , enjoy it .


I'm 4940924250576724047

[swartzfeger]

TestNXT please

18124369775920592423

Sent 5K TestNxt  , enjoy it .


I'm 4940924250576724047

Do you have a thousand or two you could spare? Thanks!

11369639962571180006

[superresistant]

BTER finaly gave me back my 100K Nxt. It took more than one month...

Please tell us the details for future refrences on how to deal with them, thnx. and grats.

Thx lophie.
I asked a Chinese on this forum to translate some text in Chinese and I have been sending almost everyday this email to admin@bter.com and support@bter.com

Hello,
你好

I have a missing withdrawal of 100000Nxt on my account / 我有一笔NXT的体现怎么到现在还没有到账，数目是100000个。能帮我查一下吗？
My account name is / 我的账号名是：
xxx
Bter account address is / 比特尔的账号地址是：
xxx
Destination is address is / 提现的地址是：
xxx
See the details here / 细节如下：
ID     Address/TxID     Amount     Date
xxx        xxx                xxx         xxx
xxx        xxx                xxx         xxx
You can see that there is 2 ID of transaction xxx and xxx but it is the same transaction address in the blockchain.
你可以看一下这两个ID的转账记录xxx 和 xxx
Please give my Nxt back as soon as possible.
请尽快把NXT提现到我的账户。
Regards,
谢谢！

I also included many screenshot of my account and the blockchain.

[jl777]

CfB, is Nxt 90% attack-proof?

Current implementation not.

Is BCNext planning on changing TF to make it ninety percent attack proof?

Ciyam and CfB just figured out how to get it implemented. It will be one of the first two NIP (NXT improvement Proposals) submitted to jean-luc. He has defacto veto power over NIP.

The basic process of creating these NIP has been worked out, subject to community approval.

For things that affect security or are non-controversial, a NIP is submitted to jean-luc after both Ciyam and I come to agreement on it. Since we hardly ever agree on anything, it is safe to say that if we both agree, then it must not be such a bad thing to do. jean-luc is the third vote and he can veto by not implementing it, but I doubt he would stall on security related NIP.

So, the first two NIP we are submitting are to implement TF using Alias to link URI (IP or DNS) address to NXT account. This allows nodes to directly send to the IP address of the next account that will forge.

The other NIP is to seal the potential transaction malleability issue. Not sure what the exact fix is (probably hashing more of the block?), but I am sure that jean-luc will know how to do it.

If anybody objects to this process for security related NIP, please object now.

For non-security related NIP, it would go through a similar process, but it will also require NXT community consensus. We are planning on using VS for the polling.

James

I think I understand.  The transparency that BCNext was referring to was linking the account to a certain IP.  Correct?

Knowing the IP is most of it. That makes attacking a lot harder to pull off as IP and NXT acct are linked, so once we can easily identify attackers, the rest is easy. Well, probably not easy, but at least achievable, maybe even on schedule

James