[ANN][GRA] Graincoin - New PoW/PoS coin | Fast, secure | Version 1.5 Released!

[bosian]

Please remember don't use 1.2 client to do any transactions. 1.2 client will only sync'ed to the old blockchain.

Only use 1.3 client as this is a hard fork, so all the previous clients will not be compatible. That's why 1.3 is a mandatory upgrade

[rentarocker]

Here is a good example of what GRA holders should be doing to boost interest in GRA.

Find relevant articles on Bitcoin and introduce Grain to them via the 'comments' section at the end of the article.

Don't just write BUY GRAIN!  Write a well thought out 3-4 sentence description that lays out

1.  That Grain is a leading Bitcoin competitor based on next generation architecture.
2.  That Grain is safer than Bitcoin because of that
3.  That Grain is now available on Coinedup.com for fractions of a penny each
4.  That early adopters are who made money on Bitcoin
5.  That its too late to be an early adopter of Bitcoin, but not too late to be in on its next gen competitor.

These talking points can be adjusted as time goes on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2014/01/12/cnbc-bitcoin-business/4393905/

If every large holder in Grain wrote 5-10 comments a day in various places, this coin will go (ahem) TO DA MOON!

[btc1210]

Here is a good example of what GRA holders should be doing to boost interest in GRA.

Don't you think the coin should be fixed and the other issues discussed before you start promoting it?

People are going to have the same questions that I asked.

How much of the current market does the developer control?

At what rate can GRA be mined?

Are you concerned that the dev with 192 million GRA is making a massive amount through PoS?

Can miners ever catch up?

What is PoS' effect on PoW? Is it working correctly?

Is PoS supposed to replace PoW as the method of mining?

etc.

Try to have an actual discussion instead of screaming "FUD" without actually reading what I wrote.

[nesco1805]

marked...

but due to last three pages, I don't see myself in GRA boat

[cryptomining]

so much drama 

[Maconi]

If Jollyburner doesn't want his 2 million from bosian I'll take it for my botched attempt at a logo. Hell I'll botch an attempt on a website or something for that amount. 

[rentarocker]

Here is a good example of what GRA holders should be doing to boost interest in GRA.

Don't you think the coin should be fixed and the other issues discussed before you start promoting it?

People are going to have the same questions that I asked.

How much of the current market does the developer control?

At what rate can GRA be mined?

Are you concerned that the dev with 192 million GRA is making a massive amount through PoS?

Can miners ever catch up?

What is PoS' effect on PoW? Is it working correctly?

Is PoS supposed to replace PoW as the method of mining?

etc.

Try to have an actual discussion instead of screaming "FUD" without actually reading what I wrote.

You are rehashing issues that have already been addressed by myself and others more knowledgeable than I on the nuts-n-bolts of crypto.  Stop wasting time.

[btc1210]

You are rehashing issues that have already been addressed by myself and others more knowledgeable than I on the nuts-n-bolts of crypto.  Stop wasting time.

This is ridiculous. "Wasting time?"

You talk about promoting GRA but you won't actually answer investor's questions or link to where the answers are.

Serious concerns are raised and you guys just scream "FUD" or go on about unrelated things like premine.

This is a big part of why I pulled all my buy orders and the volume/price has dropped.

Don't expect people to spend money on GRA if this is how things are going to be.

[bee7]

Here is a good example of what GRA holders should be doing to boost interest in GRA.

Don't you think the coin should be fixed and the other issues discussed before you start promoting it?

People are going to have the same questions that I asked.

How much of the current market does the developer control?

At what rate can GRA be mined?

Are you concerned that the dev with 192 million GRA is making a massive amount through PoS?

Can miners ever catch up?

What is PoS' effect on PoW? Is it working correctly?

Is PoS supposed to replace PoW as the method of mining?

etc.

Try to have an actual discussion instead of screaming "FUD" without actually reading what I wrote.

For the sake of fairness. Did you spend a second to investigate how much of these 192 million grains have been really "premined"?
The block chain is public, so let's look into. Here is the summary of all addresses in first 1000 blocks and their accumulated earnings:

Code:

98sNiCGjGK6L4ukoxTQvW99Mxx3SxFLqUW	501006414
9DX56airvFLUB1RL9DDwLgV4nzhZdY7FMB	673282
99Nkm3AwqH6d81NztKHoNw2iSyJouPVGcH	150830
9BqnKHWwR2wArRvFGM4nT2tuUXVCqxoJAW	129849
9J9FwTNwE3xbT4biYhFRp7w2j9YB5BS1ak	116766
99whnYBAb3Y73Feh8eFa4GrbKvEKSUfeEb	103723
9F41HFM5wPXFYzc4cCnmiHT2FSVEYmAhMj	82688
9KhJ9f4cH6D6881SEmtZ5B61fwiHyThwqB	79415
9P51Hy39kT555A4eePsvT5VqGa3FnKMM3m	75731
9LYhi672fQsMwfkSRVVZEhpedJpStFB9J3	75589
9RLZbv37aTF1fQAxwrscf8g3Wdbv4ZEbHF	45108
9Ej9n8E7k1xki6nJ7bAtVxd2RYnzWE6jTm	43372
95i9QTLHYFwt1erRSbFmD7KqRnmWHdJbvM	39432
95kHfhSQpvt9y14aJh8f4kPmLcEXFbdvcU	32359
9HxTKEiWCmFUrLpUP53VoyhbxcgvoVppeE	32114
95qFLmRMsz6o5UeHTqCovnwsuAoJauqVM9	27871
9HA8MDL2PV8cBaBKq5Y8BdLCfAeoJJvy1Q	23038
9MsQV2e1u1GK5k2UxybECsAMCM3d8gVYRB	22981
96NCgSe12sGNWWMpyJ2qzkEDmuBtzReVwY	21088
9Stkn9JLVdaTNm6xBNbNQARwaXeHU2Y3w2	19378
959hxWaEaMtyNuLGcBXik9bd8mptCefDJz	18526
9KETpcwHUmtdcygYpt4mXjeQhPSpaxWVKH	18017
9CS4itSrT6AVdFZK9V2XFfj4byEuhfTFwH	18001
97WtE1g3CsVCcvXyKCTH6QmdrDKEWGfsK7	17690
94GZef5P1YEHeDjJCSuYzyNJkuoZDra6AB	14994
9CxTN1K5QzCpZQghTxGy7MhNecxWTgSR2b	14553
9S3Vvvf7t7zgBvkfaXjUD34HNofk8FnHEB	14384
98ZELnSQ4kTnw5sZaJ81cpPpcKEK6yzdhA	14169
9JS3QzmBqZe6NA6a88PNKboS4HeSUTLrVf	11982
9Hg4seWRGyJqyEKfDWX86PGcXcXEV5sLEk	11785
9NSTGKsGyRtbW36ncAUhNEmwiJuwAm1NZx	9533
9GUzUs8qHE1sNwZodoLTbJBUsHTuZsjQfh	6775
9FPCKPcBPWou75vecu2axVDXt2MvMhPuMH	6404
9L6L7SZzJqzLzMWCy3bcXg7yFPDPdcMm2e	6302
9MNC5GXLw1ktxiKnJ4Fj6hxjw5kd6DrFoX	5654
96fQE7zCALB9jdw2ZRyYpY2RkMRAnsxLov	5542
98HshRRFt8tudccw4b4AL9kTMFa6aTX6aA	5326
9DRuM6opqFzf4ZZy5K37MDbzb41hS26EFv	4422
9CNjtyTKZ24PVBWuyXc4uAFeRCPk3vtPZ2	4382
9SkcNziSozUrb3AU51cMRxsuXowBY3bX7i	4329
9D5eAzzhiXn7d6mCBV7nzWWgEv6yENyvAS	4243
9Em1C4RbJyCJUYCVCz86FAMkCrxjZwyQ41	3181
943uEqzMbLTVprCH7GKJ2mHc8QAw32UTnZ	3173
9KF8BhkeVJtj97ETmkdtyWeqs3eWe2HXjW	2958
9CR2T77Lqik1ucvpUw3mtnBAdNjJanoro2	2948
9JsSi2pydxjXFgZhwemNHExosaUCZXUjZY	2807
9Beu8bLb385G5jx71FG9Wz68Vy5ro3XoAP	2753
9K676ub5vpM4tXigzmoTFwBD9N7JJsED8U	2522
9AmnMqe88ky9Tb6eqHdvKT1Q3mep91JKvx	2021
966nRGEsmzmt5N5Tzyf4PGXdV17k1UD7Qq	2009
9H9wNtckJRDQFr8GrS5iszVkSWg71wVjX2	2003
9ReXYm12VKteQPwyWJQptHuGpuPQ4KcxRo	1926
9R93mUXZhu6gwNaHWvdgvqCgiZvbp6Qn2s	1913
9EcmNqQmiEbo5G4s2e91dzGdL9KRjenrQ9	1821
98x4pNbdrQSP26gGBaErPQh4wsZ49QjSQn	1748
9Pa2PJoEuiMJXjXb2qCV8zHhKNAAVExcBU	1599
9EzHoJrLSjNxikwfk2RDMQC8bN3HXQDcPi	1452
98vnFujkSmQbERvwTSVam7xtcJgnjTyJYP	1319
9SKQcWPRv3qAS3Ve6yVxxv5VWGj12bEEWq	1264
9Ky45hmaoCSLwetRUjj3zHGLRRqa1RJY1v	1113

Yes, the first address, 98sNiCGjGK6L4ukoxTQvW99Mxx3SxFLqUW, is definitely the dev's one as it has mined block #1 with 500000000 grains reward in it.
Most likely, the second one, 9DX56airvFLUB1RL9DDwLgV4nzhZdY7FMB, is also the dev's address, but it has all mined coins from normal blocks. In total both addresses mined 501679696 grains in first 1000 blocks.

What about the other addresses? This is also bosian in your opinion?

This thread has been started on December 07, 2013, 12:19:56 PM
The git repository has been published on Sat Dec 7 11:56:36 2013 -0800
The block #5 has timestamp Sat Dec  7 17:21:20 UTC 2013

So, where do you see a premine of 192 milions grains?

The fact that over this time bosian mined 192 million grains in total does not mean that all this grains is premine. The only premine is 500000000! And most of it is already given out in giveaways and as bounties to block explorer hosters, pools, etc.

Edit:

Yes. I miscounted zeroes initially. It was much bigger amount than the one that bothers you. He still has part of it. One third approximately. This does not change the picture. The grain is on exchange now. He did not dumped that third. And I doubt he would. Everything that is done already with this premine have been done in a quite transparent way.

[rentarocker]

You are rehashing issues that have already been addressed by myself and others more knowledgeable than I on the nuts-n-bolts of crypto.  Stop wasting time.

This is ridiculous. "Wasting time?"

You talk about promoting GRA but you won't actually answer investor's questions or link to where the answers are.

Serious concerns are raised and you guys just scream "FUD" or go on about unrelated things like premine.

This is a big part of why I pulled all my buy orders and the volume/price has dropped.

Don't expect people to spend money on GRA if this is how things are going to be.

I think you're confusing me with others you've been arguing with.  Go back and read all my posts.

[MrSike]

Here is a good example of what GRA holders should be doing to boost interest in GRA.

Don't you think the coin should be fixed and the other issues discussed before you start promoting it?

People are going to have the same questions that I asked.

How much of the current market does the developer control? 1% (500,000,000) + personal mining - (bounties + giveaways)

At what rate can GRA be mined? 1024-2048 every 30 seconds

Are you concerned that the dev with 192 million GRA is making a massive amount through PoS? No, Bossian was straightforward about the premine from the beginning. He has done nothing to make me not question his intentions.

Can miners ever catch up? Only ~740mil have been mined including the premine, this is only 1 month old. In due time miners will catch up. If he were to keep the premine for 1 year it would only get 25mil which takes miners less than 6 days. But he has already been giving away some of the premine as giveaway/bounties.

What is PoS' effect on PoW? Is it working correctly? Yes it is working correctly, we just came off of a fix to re enable PoS and there was a build up of coinage. Everything will work itself out in due time.

Is PoS supposed to replace PoW as the method of mining? Yes that has always been the intention of PoW/PoS hybrids. The network is to be secured by the conventional PoW system and slowly let PoS take over control as to be more energy efficient. This is also why there is much more PoS currently since PoS was just fixed by the dev.

etc.

Try to have an actual discussion instead of screaming "FUD" without actually reading what I wrote.

I do see these questions asked pretty frequently in the forum.  My answers are in red above.

[rentarocker]

All of this info is available in the thread.     But thanks for putting it all in one place!

Ummm…promotion???

[btc1210]

Is PoS supposed to replace PoW as the method of mining? Yes that has always been the intention of PoW/PoS hybrids. The network is to be secured by the conventional PoW system and slowly let PoS take over control as to be more energy efficient. This is also why there is much more PoS currently since PoS was just fixed by the dev

Only actual answer I've gotten.

I realize you guys think I'm asking questions that are answered in the OP, but I'm really not.

Either I am just not being clear enough, or there is a language barrier.


As for the rest of you guys, thanks for replying but none of you actually read what I wrote, and it's getting really really frustrating

I didn't say ONE THING about PREMINE. In fact, I've clarified like 3 times now that I'm not talking about a premine.

My question is how much of the CURRENT MARKET does the dev control. Stop saying 1%, there aren't 50 billion coins yet so the percentage is much higher.

He has at least 192 million. We know this because he said so on page 55, let's move past "how are you coming up with 192 million?"


I don't even care about premine. I like coins with bounties.

The issue comes when the coin cannot be mined fast enough to over take or catch up to what the developer controls. This is one of the things I'm trying to discuss.

How many coins are there currently? I estimated 305 million. I was apparently wrong. I estimated the average GRA per block * number of blocks.

At what rate can GRA be mined? 1024-2048 every 30 seconds

There's no way anyone is mining PoW at this rate right now.

Yesterday, at its peak, it took 50x longer to mine a PoW than the day before. This is why I asked all the questions about PoS.

You're telling me that the number of coins being generated by PoS is making up for the extreme difficulty in PoW.

If this is working as intended, then this means that newcomers cannot get a fair start. They can only buy in. This also means that the vast majority of the PoS coins are going to the dev again.

I see this as a big problem.

Can miners ever catch up? Only ~740mil have been mined including the premine, this is only 1 month old. In due time miners will catch up. If he were to keep the premine for 1 year it would only get 25mil which takes miners less than 6 days. But he has already been giving away some of the premine as giveaway/bounties.

So you're saying that PoS generation will decrease? This seems like the opposite of what would happen.

If more people have GRA, and those that are mining keep generating new GRA, then surely there will be more PoS which means less or almost no PoW.

I understand that you say PoS is supposed to replace PoW, but doesn't it seem like it's happening a little too soon or too fast?


Thanks for taking the time to actually reply.

[MrSike]

Is PoS supposed to replace PoW as the method of mining? Yes that has always been the intention of PoW/PoS hybrids. The network is to be secured by the conventional PoW system and slowly let PoS take over control as to be more energy efficient. This is also why there is much more PoS currently since PoS was just fixed by the dev

Only actual answer I've gotten.

I realize you guys think I'm asking questions that are answered in the OP, but I'm really not.

Either I am just not being clear enough, or there is a language barrier.


As for the rest of you guys, thanks for replying but none of you actually read what I wrote, and it's getting really really frustrating

I didn't say ONE THING about PREMINE. In fact, I've clarified like 3 times now that I'm not talking about a premine.

My question is how much of the CURRENT MARKET does the dev control. Stop saying 1%, there aren't 50 billion coins yet so the percentage is much higher.

He has at least 192 million. We know this because he said so on page 55, let's move past "how are you coming up with 192 million?"


I don't even care about premine. I like coins with bounties.

The issue comes when the coin cannot be mined fast enough to over take or catch up to what the developer controls. This is one of the things I'm trying to discuss.

How many coins are there currently? I estimated 305 million. I was apparently wrong. I estimated the average GRA per block * number of blocks.

At what rate can GRA be mined? 1024-2048 every 30 seconds

There's no way anyone is mining PoW at this rate right now.

Yesterday, at its peak, it took 50x longer to mine a PoW than the day before. This is why I asked all the questions about PoS.

You're telling me that the number of coins being generated by PoS is making up for the extreme difficulty in PoW.

If this is working as intended, then this means that newcomers cannot get a fair start. They can only buy in. This also means that the vast majority of the PoS coins are going to the dev again.

I see this as a big problem.

Can miners ever catch up? Only ~740mil have been mined including the premine, this is only 1 month old. In due time miners will catch up. If he were to keep the premine for 1 year it would only get 25mil which takes miners less than 6 days. But he has already been giving away some of the premine as giveaway/bounties.

So you're saying that PoS generation will decrease? This seems like the opposite of what would happen.

If more people have GRA, and those that are mining keep generating new GRA, then surely there will be more PoS which means less or almost no PoW.

I understand that you say PoS is supposed to replace PoW, but doesn't it seem like it's happening a little too soon or too fast?


Thanks for taking the time to actually reply. I will reconsider GRA.

Ok I will try to answer everything. There are around 740 million coins in circulation now and the dev controls 192 million apparently. That is about 26% of all coins in circulation.

The number of coins being generated by PoS are not enough to make up for PoW at the moment, but when the block rewards are cut down in a few years with more adoption of the coin for consistent transaction fees you will see a point in time where PoS generates more than PoW.  But this is a very long time in the future will this will take complete effect.

We are seeing the PoS generation artificially high right now because all PoS was blocked for a while. After those go through the minting process over time it will take longer between blocks. Using made up numbers for example purpose: What we have is 100million coins all at once fighting over PoS and every 30 seconds some find a block. Every time a block is found that is less coins fighting over the blocks. This will in the long run stretch this 100million coins out over a longer span of time to have a more steady flow of PoS for the next time these coins are ready for minting. It will take a couple of cycles to completely straighten itself out.

ninja edit: Most of the problems are because PoS stopped for a while and the fix let PoS start again, in a few cycles (not sure how many) everything involved with PoS and difficulty adjustments should be straitened out.

[bee7]

At what rate can GRA be mined? 1024-2048 every 30 seconds

There's no way anyone is mining PoW at this rate right now.

Yesterday, at its peak, it took 50x longer to mine a PoW than the day before. This is why I asked all the questions about PoS.

You're telling me that the number of coins being generated by PoS is making up for the extreme difficulty in PoW.

If this is working as intended, then this means that newcomers cannot get a fair start. They can only buy in. This also means that the vast majority of the PoS coins are going to the dev again.

I see this as a big problem.

For your reference. During past 24 hours I mined 11 PoW blocks and 47 PoS blocks. I have approximately 5.6Mh power. Is that good? Provided we are in the process of recovery from absent PoS mined blocks I don't think this is bad. To compare, presently the NovaCoin under normal circumstances expects two PoS blocks accompanied by one PoW block if I recall correctly.

[bosian]

One possible way to solve the PoW block time too long issue is to decrease the max allowed PoW block time, which is currently set at 12X normal time. This means due to the generation of PoS blocks, the PoW block time can be extended to 12X normal time (of course when PoS generation decreases, the PoW block time will decrease and go back to target time). The PoW target time extension is needed in order to maintain the overall block target time.

We could decrease the max allowed PoW block to 3X normal time. Actually I noticed that Novacoin did this patch many months after they launched the coin. We could do the same. This will make the delay of the PoW less significant. However, this will require another hard fork, which is why I am reluctant to do. If the community thinks this is needed, I can make the changes.

Again, the PoS issues I discussed before the release of Version 1.3. Please refer to it (link below) and understand the pros and cons of the PoS blocks.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361503.msg4419112#msg4419112

[rmindel]

We are seeing the PoS generation artificially high right now because all PoS was blocked for a while. After those go through the minting process over time it will take longer between blocks. Using made up numbers for example purpose: What we have is 100million coins all at once fighting over PoS and every 30 seconds some find a block. Every time a block is found that is less coins fighting over the blocks. This will in the long run stretch this 100million coins out over a longer span of time to have a more steady flow of PoS for the next time these coins are ready for minting. It will take a couple of cycles to completely straighten itself out.

ninja edit: Most of the problems are because PoS stopped for a while and the fix let PoS start again, in a few cycles (not sure how many) everything involved with PoS and difficulty adjustments should be straitened out.

I think this is the first real answer to the questions about the issues with PoS+PoW, and it seems fine to let all the old PoS blocks go through and then it will stabilize IMHO

[WalkerLi]

One possible way to solve the PoW block time too long issue is to decrease the max allowed PoW block time, which is currently set at 12X normal time. This means due to the generation of PoS blocks, the PoW block time can be extended to 12X normal time (of course when PoS generation decreases, the PoW block time will decrease and go back to target time). The PoW target time extension is needed in order to maintain the overall block target time.

We could decrease the max allowed PoW block to 3X normal time. Actually I noticed that Novacoin did this patch many months after they launched the coin. We could do the same. This will make the delay of the PoW less significant. However, this will require another hard fork, which is why I am reluctant to do. If the community thinks this is needed, I can make the changes.

Again, the PoS issues I discussed before the release of Version 1.3. Please refer to it (link below) and understand the pros and cons of the PoS blocks.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361503.msg4419112#msg4419112

GRA block cycle is 30s, 12times is 6 minutes, but as I see in the pool, it's 30 minutes cycle now.

[rmindel]

One possible way to solve the PoW block time too long issue is to decrease the max allowed PoW block time, which is currently set at 12X normal time. This means due to the generation of PoS blocks, the PoW block time can be extended to 12X normal time (of course when PoS generation decreases, the PoW block time will decrease and go back to target time). The PoW target time extension is needed in order to maintain the overall block target time.

We could decrease the max allowed PoW block to 3X normal time. Actually I noticed that Novacoin did this patch many months after they launched the coin. We could do the same. This will make the delay of the PoW less significant. However, this will require another hard fork, which is why I am reluctant to do. If the community thinks this is needed, I can make the changes.

Again, the PoS issues I discussed before the release of Version 1.3. Please refer to it (link below) and understand the pros and cons of the PoS blocks.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361503.msg4419112#msg4419112

GRA block cycle is 30s, 12times is 6 minutes, but as I see in the pool, it's 30 minutes cycle now.

You need to remember that 6 mins is for both pools + solo miners,
All it takes is 5 solo miners getting blocks and the pool block wait becomes 30 mins

[marcje]

I dont get anything from PoS, i have my wallet open over 24h with 400k grain in it and nothing happened. How can i get the PoS to work?