[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[coastermonger]

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

I'm going to respectfully disagree.  Darkcoin needs a cap, it doesn't have to be quick or sharp, or anytime soon, but there needs to be an expectation that it's a limited commodity  like gold.  Why?  Because it's directly competing with other limited commodity cryptocurrencies.  

If darkcoin is inflationary, there is no advantage to keeping your money in it long term.  This is a problem, because trying to trade in and out of the currency would reduce the privacy that it affords.  I could hold another limited commodity cryptocurrency instead and very likely watch its value gain with time.  

Gradually reducing the rewards over time is an excellent solution.  Miners will still make money off of transaction fees, the price will adjust upwards as inflation diminishes, and there will be real incentive to keeping your money in darkcoin long term.  These are the characteristics you would want in an ideal currency.

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[Bio Teckna]

Hi everyone,

I've created a new P2Pool for DarkCoin mining
Here is the URL : http://poulpe.nirnroot.com:7903
Server :

    100Mbps
    DDOS Protection
    Hosted in Gravelines, France : https://www.google.com/maps/search/ovh+gravelines/@51.0028375,2.142824,10z/data=!3m1!4b1
    Rented for a year
    1% fee


Remember that it can take up to 24-72 hours for your payments to ramp up.
Use a wallet address as your username

Join the decentralised p2p mining network and protect DRK from the 51% attack!​
MPOS: Trust the administrator...
P2Pool: Only trust yourself Cheesy

I have found your node not listed in http://darckcoin.mine.nu/.
I correct the code, soon will be listed.

done.

Thanks

[TanteStefana]

Here's the spreadsheet used to calculate that graph, everyone can play with the numbers and suggest different values.

We could have all sorts of values, like :

Adjustment Cycle (yr)            Percentage            Max Coins
1                                               .8                      12M - 50M
.5                                              .9                      12M - 54M
.25                                            .95                     25M - 102M
.25                                            .9                       12M - 54M

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap3NZiAq07QUdFlIZEZpTXU2MHNrckduVnR0bzVzOVE&usp=sharing

If you make the minimums so small, nobody would care about the coin.  They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You'll kill this coin with greed.

The exact reason why true democracy will never work, the people will keep voting themselves money until here isn't any anymore...

[eduffield]

That's just the average, and as it is going, we seem right on track to hug that blue line, so the red line is really an unlikely max that I'm afraid people think could be real.  It's not, and I would  like to see the formula continue as it is.  I think it's unwise to shorten the lifespan of this coin.  You have to remember, there will exponentially more and more people joining the crypto coin community over the next few years, and more after that.  It will become an acceptable form of currency, there is  no stopping it now.  So the mild  inflation will be quickly absorbed by demand, and allowing for meaningful rewards in the long term will keep this coin viable in our lifetime!  

This coin should be the exception to the rule of, "lets get all the profit we can out of it asap to heck with the future!"

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

We're most definitely going to hug the blue line. We're already at 20DRK and the mining network will most certainly grow in the coming months. I also agree with you about the 1M coins being absorbed by the future users of the coin. However, there are many investors that really like the coin and are interested in using it as a store of value, but are turned off by the inflationary creation of currency. Many of these people have been reaching out to me saying they want to invest but won't unless we change this.

[TanteStefana]

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

Bitcoin won't die just because it'll stop producing coins at some point - otherwise no-one would buy it thinking it's dead and buried already. There's still transaction fees to be mined after the coin generation phase and if the coin has endured for so long, that means it will have transactions.

Finite and scarce coins are always better than infinite crapcoins. The elite-hoarding argument is true for every single coin in circulation. If the elite have the money and want to buy in, they can buy anything they like and hoard it.

It is not infinite if the demand outpaces the supply, by a lot!  And bitcoin is already stagnant.  It sits  like gold in a vault, under your bed, behind the couch.

[AlexGR]

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

Bitcoin won't die just because it'll stop producing coins at some point - otherwise no-one would buy it thinking it's dead and buried already. There's still transaction fees to be mined after the coin generation phase and if the coin has endured for so long, that means it will have transactions.

Finite and scarce coins are always better than infinite crapcoins. The elite-hoarding argument is true for every single coin in circulation. If the elite have the money and want to buy in, they can buy anything they like and hoard it.

It is not infinite if the demand outpaces the supply, by a lot!  And bitcoin is already stagnant.  It sits  like gold in a vault, under your bed, behind the couch.

Let's say you have bitcoin which has 21mn coins but it will be destined to grow for ever and it's a bad store of value. Thus its price is low but it's highly liquid and nobody hoards it. Thus the price is, say, 10$ instead of 1000$. This means that there are 21mn X 10$ = 210mn USD in bitcoins that can be moved around for commerce / payments etc.

Now, let's change that and make it finite. 90% of people hoard bitcoin and the price goes from 10 to 1000$. Thus ~19mn coins are in hoarding and ~2mn coins are in circulation for commerce. However these 2mn coins can now handle commerce/payments/trade etc of 2mn coins X 1000 USD each = 2bn USD. You would actually only need 200.000 coins of 1000 USD each to cover what previously required 21.000.000 coins at a price of 10$.

You see the spike in price for the hoarded coins allows for a much lesser number of coins to cover commerce / payments / trade or financial daytrading. So it's not really a problem. And now the coin not only serves for trading/commerce etc but also as a store of value as well. You can't go wrong with this.

[TanteStefana]

Has anyone done the math for figuring out at what hash rate we will hit the minimum 5 coins per block?

I believe around 3400

[TanteStefana]

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

I'm going to respectfully disagree.  Darkcoin needs a cap, it doesn't have to be quick or sharp, or anytime soon, but there needs to be an expectation that it's a limited commodity  like gold.  Why?  Because it's directly competing with other limited commodity cryptocurrencies.  

If darkcoin is inflationary, there is no advantage to keeping your money in it long term.  This is a problem, because trying to trade in and out of the currency would reduce the privacy that it affords.  I could hold another limited commodity cryptocurrency instead and very likely watch its value gain with time.  

Gradually reducing the rewards over time is an excellent solution.  Miners will still make money off of transaction fees, the price will adjust upwards as inflation diminishes, and there will be real incentive to keeping your money in darkcoin long term.  These are the characteristics you would want in an ideal currency.

I guess, I just saw a different future for this coin, as an actual coin, not a commodity.  I've said my peace

[watuba]

I suspect you're all busy talking through the reward structure, but I'm about to hit the hay so I'm going to leave this idea here for discussion:

I propose redirecting a portion of bounty funds towards crowdsourcing a professional logo & wordpress template.

The timeline I'd be aiming for:

• Put logo design brief on DesignCrowd this weekend
• Release interim site with expanded content within a week
• Logo designs trickle in and winner is voted on by community (which could mean sticking with what we have)
• Submit design brief for professionally branded WordPress theme to DesignCrowd, matched to logo
• Vote on the WP theme entries
• Generate final Darkcoin branding guide based on the above.

We could also raise more funds specifically for this, e.g. if we want to shoot for higher quality WP templates. Open to feedback.

Let's do it!!  If you want to create an address for specific donations to this use, I'd donate more.  Specify how much of the existing pool is used for this as well. 

[chompyZ]

If you make the minimums so small, nobody would care about the coin.  They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You'll kill this coin with greed.

+1
For Darkcoin to really succeed, it needs to be highly distributed among its users, achieving high equality.
If a small number of people hold most of the coins, it will gain no network effect, and it can kill the coin.

Right now, we have ~3.7m coins, of which ~2m where mined in the first 24hours.
If Darkcoin has 84m coins within X years, then the equality will obviously be achieved, especially if all the GPU miners come to darkcoin after Asic ruled the Scryp-coins.

But if we limit the coin supply, and have say 10m coins within X years, then one might think that this makes the coin a good store of value, but I would argue that it will TanteStefana is right about what people would say...

They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

[Minotaur26]

That's just the average, and as it is going, we seem right on track to hug that blue line, so the red line is really an unlikely max that I'm afraid people think could be real.  It's not, and I would  like to see the formula continue as it is.  I think it's unwise to shorten the lifespan of this coin.  You have to remember, there will exponentially more and more people joining the crypto coin community over the next few years, and more after that.  It will become an acceptable form of currency, there is  no stopping it now.  So the mild  inflation will be quickly absorbed by demand, and allowing for meaningful rewards in the long term will keep this coin viable in our lifetime!  

This coin should be the exception to the rule of, "lets get all the profit we can out of it asap to heck with the future!"

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

We're most definitely going to hug the blue line. We're already at 20DRK and the mining network will most certainly grow in the coming months. I also agree with you about the 1M coins being absorbed by the future users of the coin. However, there are many investors that really like the coin and are interested in using it as a store of value, but are turned off by the inflationary creation of currency. Many of these people have been reaching out to me saying they want to invest but won't unless we change this.

Yesterday there was a good debate about the usability of DRK as a way to store wealth because of the anonymity factor nobody wants to store wealth on a public ledger.  I totally support the idea of making the change, it can bring a lot of capital since the interest would shift from day to day transaction to storing wealth.

[JGCMiner]

Has anyone done the math for figuring out at what hash rate we will hit the minimum 5 coins per block?

I believe around 3400

To clear 3400 is the required difficulty for the 5 coin block reward.

As for the change, maybe we can use a 10% cut to compromise.

[coins101]

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

I'm going to respectfully disagree.  Darkcoin needs a cap, it doesn't have to be quick or sharp, or anytime soon, but there needs to be an expectation that it's a limited commodity  like gold.  Why?  Because it's directly competing with other limited commodity cryptocurrencies.  

If darkcoin is inflationary, there is no advantage to keeping your money in it long term.  This is a problem, because trying to trade in and out of the currency would reduce the privacy that it affords.  I could hold another limited commodity cryptocurrency instead and very likely watch its value gain with time.  

Gradually reducing the rewards over time is an excellent solution.  Miners will still make money off of transaction fees, the price will adjust upwards as inflation diminishes, and there will be real incentive to keeping your money in darkcoin long term.  These are the characteristics you would want in an ideal currency.

I guess, I just saw a different future for this coin, as an actual coin, not a commodity.  I've said my peace

I think you make very valuable contributions.  

I think what people feel about limited supply is that when you use crypto you add value into the coin which you can save or send. Paying with paypal or credit card is a promise to pay, i.e. there is a settlement process that happens behind the scenes once you make a transaction - your bank account gets deducted and cash transfers through the banking system.

With crypto there is no banking or any kind of settlement system. The promise to pay is the coin - cash. If you load value into a coin, preferably it should remain there. But with more coins coming into the system your coin loses value. That is what happens when people print more money, it loses value and so prices must go up - Zimbabwe style.

Satoshi he say: Once a predetermined number of coins have entered circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free.

The sooner we get to transaction fees, the better. We can charge a lot for DarkSend, that will, because of X11, attract lots of smaller decentralised miners to support the network.

Ok. This is now over my paid grade.

[coastermonger]

If you make the minimums so small, nobody would care about the coin.  They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You'll kill this coin with greed.

+1
For Darkcoin to really succeed, it needs to be highly distributed among its users, achieving high equality.
If a small number of people hold most of the coins, it will gain no network effect, and it can kill the coin.

Right now, we have ~3.7m coins, of which ~2m where mined in the first 24hours.
If Darkcoin has 84m coins within X years, then the equality will obviously be achieved, especially if all the GPU miners come to darkcoin after Asic ruled the Scryp-coins.

But if we limit the coin supply, and have say 10m coins within X years, then one might think that this makes the coin a good store of value, but I would argue that it will TanteStefana is right about what people would say...

They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You can have the best of both worlds, just:
1) make the reward adjustment less than 50%.  Evan is suggesting 20%, and this allows for much more gradual tapering over time.
2) Make the reward period long enough, 20% every 1-3 years is pretty slow
3) Adjust these parameters so that overall, the total number of coins remains high.  

[godzirra]

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

I'm going to respectfully disagree.  Darkcoin needs a cap, it doesn't have to be quick or sharp, or anytime soon, but there needs to be an expectation that it's a limited commodity  like gold.  Why?  Because it's directly competing with other limited commodity cryptocurrencies.  

If darkcoin is inflationary, there is no advantage to keeping your money in it long term.  This is a problem, because trying to trade in and out of the currency would reduce the privacy that it affords.  I could hold another limited commodity cryptocurrency instead and very likely watch its value gain with time.  

Gradually reducing the rewards over time is an excellent solution.  Miners will still make money off of transaction fees, the price will adjust upwards as inflation diminishes, and there will be real incentive to keeping your money in darkcoin long term.  These are the characteristics you would want in an ideal currency.

I guess, I just saw a different future for this coin, as an actual coin, not a commodity.  I've said my peace

Is it that simple? Why wouldn't people use the coin for transactions even if others are hoarding them. Still anonymous transactions. I'm hoarding mine right now regardless. Isn't that a llegitimate function? Some will transact some will hoard. I think know there's a happy medium.

[AlexGR]

But if we limit the coin supply, and have say 10m coins within X years, then one might think that this makes the coin a good store of value, but I would argue that it will TanteStefana is right about what people would say...

They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

Those that think that way, let them join a highly inflationary coin and learn their lesson. When it's in a slow death for months and years and they are like "oh, whyyyyyyyyy did I lose my money, time, mining effort", then they may realize how real economy works.

[coastermonger]

That's just the average, and as it is going, we seem right on track to hug that blue line, so the red line is really an unlikely max that I'm afraid people think could be real.  It's not, and I would  like to see the formula continue as it is.  I think it's unwise to shorten the lifespan of this coin.  You have to remember, there will exponentially more and more people joining the crypto coin community over the next few years, and more after that.  It will become an acceptable form of currency, there is  no stopping it now.  So the mild  inflation will be quickly absorbed by demand, and allowing for meaningful rewards in the long term will keep this coin viable in our lifetime!  

This coin should be the exception to the rule of, "lets get all the profit we can out of it asap to heck with the future!"

As it stands, DarkCoin can live forever, if the artificial 84million cap were removed.  It is still rare, it takes a century to get to 100 million.  Look at the United States Deficit!  It's in the Trillions!  And people think 100 million coins for the world population is too much?

We're most definitely going to hug the blue line. We're already at 20DRK and the mining network will most certainly grow in the coming months. I also agree with you about the 1M coins being absorbed by the future users of the coin. However, there are many investors that really like the coin and are interested in using it as a store of value, but are turned off by the inflationary creation of currency. Many of these people have been reaching out to me saying they want to invest but won't unless we change this.

Yesterday there was a good debate about the usability of DRK as a way to store wealth because of the anonymity factor nobody wants to store wealth on a public ledger.  I totally support the idea of making the change, it can bring a lot of capital since the interest would shift from day to day transaction to storing wealth.

+1, I'd love to store my wealth in this cryptocurrency long term, and it would be difficult to do so if it's subject to inflation forever.  I think the eventual coin cap can be high and the tapering schedule can be gradual so that it gives ample time for people to join in, and miners will see their profits sustained by transaction fees in the decades to come as the price rises to adjust for the scarcity.  

[Standhaft]

How about .5-1 % every month? This allows a slow reduction of new coins entering the market while still reaching a decent amount of maximum coins that would make the coin attractive for new people

[n00bnoxious]

If you make the minimums so small, nobody would care about the coin.  They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You'll kill this coin with greed.

+1
For Darkcoin to really succeed, it needs to be highly distributed among its users, achieving high equality.
If a small number of people hold most of the coins, it will gain no network effect, and it can kill the coin.

Right now, we have ~3.7m coins, of which ~2m where mined in the first 24hours.
If Darkcoin has 84m coins within X years, then the equality will obviously be achieved, especially if all the GPU miners come to darkcoin after Asic ruled the Scryp-coins.

But if we limit the coin supply, and have say 10m coins within X years, then one might think that this makes the coin a good store of value, but I would argue that it will TanteStefana is right about what people would say...

They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You can have the best of both worlds, just:
1) make the reward adjustment less than 50%.  Evan is suggesting 20%, and this allows for much more gradual tapering over time.
2) Make the reward period long enough, 20% every 1-3 years is pretty slow
3) Adjust these parameters so that overall, the total number of coins remains high.  

I'm just registering my +1 on pretty much all of this. The coin needs to be able to support both being a store of value for investors AND be usable as a directly transferable cash-type item in order to succeed in being what it truly can. If you push too hard for only investors to get in, the end-users who would most benefit from the anonymity factor (people in seriously oppressive regimes and the suchlike) won't be able to, and it'll become stagnant, and full of partially laundered money that rarely moves.

If you push too hard for only end-users to have access the coin, then you'll end up with the coin constantly shifting, staying unstable as all hell and scaring away potential investors, keeping the price down.

Look at fiat currencies: They act as BOTH. The systems which manage them may be broken, but this is surely something that we're here to try and fix... Over a long-term project.

Disclaimer: I'm not even close to being any kind of economist, and if I'm completely wrong here please let me know (but do try and be polite ;-) )

[JGCMiner]

If you make the minimums so small, nobody would care about the coin.  They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You'll kill this coin with greed.

+1
For Darkcoin to really succeed, it needs to be highly distributed among its users, achieving high equality.
If a small number of people hold most of the coins, it will gain no network effect, and it can kill the coin.

Right now, we have ~3.7m coins, of which ~2m where mined in the first 24hours.
If Darkcoin has 84m coins within X years, then the equality will obviously be achieved, especially if all the GPU miners come to darkcoin after Asic ruled the Scryp-coins.

But if we limit the coin supply, and have say 10m coins within X years, then one might think that this makes the coin a good store of value, but I would argue that it will TanteStefana is right about what people would say...

They'd say, oh  only the people who got in early will ever have any coin, why should I make them rich?

You can have the best of both worlds, just:
1) make the reward adjustment less than 50%.  Evan is suggesting 20%, and this allows for much more gradual tapering over time.
2) Make the reward period long enough, 20% every 1-3 years is pretty slow
3) Adjust these parameters so that overall, the total number of coins remains high.  

20% every two years might be ok as well.  That would give us approximately the same number of max coins as bitcoin assuming we reach the 5 coin reward quickly.