[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[nzminer]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.

I can't find a way for anything you said here to be valid. Please convince me.

I know a lot of people have stated in many articles that they believe only 5 or 6 coins will ultimately survive.  But the more I think about it, the more I can see many  more coins finding a nitch if more of the population start to use them.  It will be interesting to see where we are 10, 15, 20 years from now.  The press is printing gloom and doom again.  It's so silly, people obviously don't truly understand the value crypto coins bring to the market.  But of course time will tell!

I agree with you. Once crypto becomes ubiquitous and we all have payment apps on our smartphones, the door is wide open for altcoins and the competition will expand to fill every niche in the market. There's no reason these apps couldn't support payment via any altcoin, either directly or seamlessly converted to the merchant's desired coin via an exchange. I could pick DarkKitty3000Coin on my phone, swipe at the terminal, and the merchant receives BTC. It'll happen.

I guess something like that would work, i would really like to see a wallet that integrates all your wallets from various cryptos blockchains into one, would be alot of work, especially with all the new altcoins popping up, but would make it alot easier.
Something based on multibit would be great and if it had the function to connect to an exchange then you could make conversion a breeze.
My hard drive is going to fill up if i download any more wallets and sync the blockchains!

[LimLims]

Logo competition update

117 crowdsourced designs have come in, and can be viewed here: https://www.darkcointalk.org/threads/logo-designs-all-please-view-discuss.205/

Selection process will be as follows (this will all happen on darkcointalk.org, not here):

Day 1. Post all the designs for people to look at & discuss, including the current logo and earlier community generated designs.
Day 2. I will post a draft subset of these that I've narrowed down for inclusion in the first vote (people can debate inclusions/exclusions).
Day 3. First vote will be posted, and it will be open for 48 hrs. First vote will include the preselected subset with modifications based on discussion on day 2.
Day 5. Depending on how close vote 1 is, a final 48 hr vote may be called with the top x number of submissions.

Darkcoin team will officially retain the right to veto & call re-votes, in case democracy-by-online-poll goes horribly wrong, although I don't anticipate that happening.

[nzminer]

Logo competition update

117 crowdsourced designs have come in, and can be viewed here: https://www.darkcointalk.org/threads/logo-designs-all-please-view-discuss.205/

Selection process will be as follows (this will all happen on darkcointalk.org, not here):

Day 1. Post all the designs for people to look at & discuss, including the current logo and earlier community generated designs.
Day 2. I will post a draft subset of these that I've narrowed down for inclusion in the first vote (people can debate inclusions/exclusions).
Day 3. First vote will be posted, and it will be open for 48 hrs. First vote will include the preselected subset with modifications based on discussion on day 2.
Day 5. Depending on how close vote 1 is, a final 48 hr vote may be called with the top x number of submissions.

Darkcoin team will officially retain the right to veto & call re-votes, in case democracy-by-online-poll goes horribly wrong, although I don't anticipate that happening.

I do have to say that most of those designs submitted are terrible, some of them look almost identical to the digibyte logo!
Those ones should be removed ASAP!
There are a handful of logos i really like, but personally i dont see anything with the current logo.
Is it too late to submit a design?
I may put something together if i have time this weekend.

[illodin]

That's a beauty: https://i.imgur.com/fIhcGBN.jpg

[coins101]

Logo competition update

117 crowdsourced designs have come in, and can be viewed here: https://www.darkcointalk.org/threads/logo-designs-all-please-view-discuss.205/

Selection process will be as follows (this will all happen on darkcointalk.org, not here):

Day 1. Post all the designs for people to look at & discuss, including the current logo and earlier community generated designs.
Day 2. I will post a draft subset of these that I've narrowed down for inclusion in the first vote (people can debate inclusions/exclusions).
Day 3. First vote will be posted, and it will be open for 48 hrs. First vote will include the preselected subset with modifications based on discussion on day 2.
Day 5. Depending on how close vote 1 is, a final 48 hr vote may be called with the top x number of submissions.

Darkcoin team will officially retain the right to veto & call re-votes, in case democracy-by-online-poll goes horribly wrong, although I don't anticipate that happening.

Could I make a request.

This thread is, by and large, tech focused. The voting is going to be done by those who see things from a particular bias. These branding decisions are going to have a longer-term impact on a wide group of people.

I would question whether the branding decision making process shouldn't be extended beyond to gain the perspective of potential target users. That would necessity a view on who would be the potential target users.

I am not an expert in branding. But I have had to employ branding experts to launch a financial product for a supermarket environment. I can't tell you how conservative established brands can be and how every potential threat to image is considered in absolute detail. What ends up happening is a process that lasts ages and can involve focus groups of potential users.

I am concerned about DarkSend.

Darkcoin is fine. You can have whatever branding you like for that. DarkSend is the e-cash that you would want to compete for the right to be the cash for the internet. That means mass consumer adoption and integrating with brands, hopefully.  How would a DarkSend logo work with Amazon or WalMart.com?

I would almost question the use of DarkSend as a name. DarkSend does the job, but what are the first impressions it gives? iCash would be a choice by Apple.

Zerocash is a stupid consumer name. It makes you think of not having any money.

Can we try and think of this from the point of view of who we think the end users are going to be?

[child_harold]

That's a beauty: https://i.imgur.com/fIhcGBN.jpg

that's pretty sweet

[eduffield]

That's a beauty: https://i.imgur.com/fIhcGBN.jpg

Wow, that's so nice to look at. It's soo simple too

[n00bnoxious]

I am mining with an R9-280x and a 7970
I am only getting 2 MH per card, but from what i read i should expect 2.4 MH per card, is this correct?
If so what are the ideal settings for SG miner?
I wish i mined this coin from the start! Apparently with that hashrate, i would have mined 300-400 darkcoins a day!

Do you have the right / latest sgminer (based on 4.1)?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

Yes i believe so, but ill check, i downloaded mine from the official blackcoin page.

i have 280x`s and 7970 and can only get 2 MH per card which i believe is the norm using sph 4.1, with 290`s you can get 2.5 MH.

Some people are reporting 2.4MH whith theirs thats all, but they are probably doing some serious overclocking...

If you have the Boost edition with 2 PCIe power sockets you can push them up to 2.4Mh/s by using a bit of software overclocking and no voltage change, but even if you've got the standard one you can eke out 2.2Mh/s by doing the same, the only issue being you can't deliver enough power to the GPU to push the clocks beyond at absolute 75% of their max. The extra 0.4Mh/s seems to use about 30W extra at the wall.

[wasamata]

nice https://i.imgur.com/bHcNCgH.png
could do maybe with some refining..

[nzminer]

That's a beauty: https://i.imgur.com/fIhcGBN.jpg

Yeah i thought that was one of the better ones too.

[minersday]

That's a beauty: https://i.imgur.com/fIhcGBN.jpg

that's pretty sweet

Yes this is very nice, best so far.
would love to see darksend, DGW logos too.

What about calling this only Dark?
and dropping the coin part?
you would have
Darks
Darkcents ? for example.

[AlexGR]

Any views on Charlie Lee, founder of Litecoin, on X11 being less secure than scrypt?

His comment:
https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=18166.msg153436#msg153436

The back story to the comment:

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=18166.msg152706#msg152706

X11 is Far Worse
X11 suffers from the problems stemming from increased propagation latency and slow verification, and adds even worse susceptibility to ASIC advantage.  It is a mere mishmash of 11 separate algorithms that are now GPU mineable (according to Darkcoin’s homepage).  Anything GPU mineable can be implemented in custom hardware.  To make matters worse, ASIC’s could even have a major speedup advantage over GPU’s.   adam3mus said, “it does seem likely that eg if the unused space due to heat can be filled with the other hashes, then it can all be pipelined together and no slowdown.  the only cost is replicating different hash functions which doesnt seem particularly hard”

So a switch to X11 only delays the inevitable.  Switching the hash to X11 would only spite the current manufacturers while ultimately failing in the goal of preventing ASIC’s later.  It gets even worse.  If the cost of entry for a particular PoW is very high by design, that increases the chance of fewer competing manufacturers entering a market.  This is the worst possible outcome for any Bitcoin-like network that relies upon large quantities of greedy miners to outdo each other to maintain network security.

The quoted adam3mus is a brain on legs. He knows far too much about hashing, I think he invented hashcash wash was used to make bitcoin feasible. He does, however, suffer from alt-coin phobia.

Litecoin/Vertcoin (Scrypt and Scrypt-N) have made two choices that will boomerang in the long-term.

1) Declaring asic immunity (which is false - one only needs to see vertcoin's title that says "no more asics") and using it as a selling point. Litecoin discovered their claim was bogus when it was GPU mineable. They are true when they say that if a hash can be GPU-mined, it can be ASICed. Same is true for scrypt, scryptN, x11 etc.

2) Using much RAM as a cost-deterrent. This will only make ASICs much more expensive than normal ASICs and if it works as they say it will, then it will have the unintended consequence that scrypt and particularly scrypt-N ASICs will be out of reach for most people => worse decentralization in terms of hashing power.

Theoretically x11 hashes are easier to implement on ASIC (as single hashes - as a chained hash we'll see how it goes). But x11 asics will eventually be cheaper for the masses (better asic decentralization) as they do not carry the ram cost that will make scryptN asics much more expensive.

In any case, when a new mining equipment comes out that is orders of magnitude faster, it should be available to everyone for fairness reasons. Coins that will try to remain at the GPU-only phase will always have the threat of ASIC on the horizon on what would happen if an ASIC came along. It will be a dejavu situation with early February over here and cpu mining vs fears of gpu miners being available in the wild. And if a coin like Vert states it will change PoW when ASICs are out, then they've opened their cards and ASIC manufacturers will outplay them: They'll make the ASICs and use it to mine scryptN networks while these networks are oblivious to ASICs existence. I did an estimation that if a manufacturer makes a few ASICs that capture 30% of an enlarged scryptN market in the next year that produces something like 1000 BTC per day in altcoins, then it's 300 BTC per day in profit / 9000 BTC per month. Even if BTC is at 500$ it'll be 4.5mn USD per month - and this power will masquarade as GPU power. If BTC is at 1000, we are talking about 9mn per month.

Btw, I laugh when I see gpu miners talk about their "concerns" on decentralization. We all know that miners go to large pools irregardless of the hashpower concentration as they don't care that much. In order to avoid variance, they can go to pools with 20-30-50% of the hashpower and then complain that ASICs will be bad for centralization and bad for the network.

[coins101]

In that case, why doest the community start working on ASICs and sell them at cost, plus a bit of profit for project development work like smartphone wallets?

[CHAOSiTEC]

Just want to say one more time, in case I missed saying it, I'm super sad lotterymining pool is closing.    I've enjoyed being there, I even won a lottery.  If any pool were going to be here forever, I honestly thought lotterymining would have been it.  I'll be mining there until April 22, then I may retire my computers from mining and start gaming again  

I hope you, CHAOSiTEC and your wife will soon be able to buy that house, and that you fill it with little ones  And I especially hope you'll still come talk to us here.  I'm glad the dice game and wheel of fortune, etc... are still going to be run by you, that means you're still invested in us  Thanks for all you've done for us, you really were responsible for a lot of the good vibes we have here in this thread!

Oh BTW, Evan must have updated the beta 5 wallet, because it did finally sync 

Ill still be around Tanta, and i have some projects coming up, just wait and see :-)

[nzminer]

Any views on Charlie Lee, founder of Litecoin, on X11 being less secure than scrypt?

His comment:
https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=18166.msg153436#msg153436

The back story to the comment:

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=18166.msg152706#msg152706

X11 is Far Worse
X11 suffers from the problems stemming from increased propagation latency and slow verification, and adds even worse susceptibility to ASIC advantage.  It is a mere mishmash of 11 separate algorithms that are now GPU mineable (according to Darkcoin’s homepage).  Anything GPU mineable can be implemented in custom hardware.  To make matters worse, ASIC’s could even have a major speedup advantage over GPU’s.   adam3mus said, “it does seem likely that eg if the unused space due to heat can be filled with the other hashes, then it can all be pipelined together and no slowdown.  the only cost is replicating different hash functions which doesnt seem particularly hard”

So a switch to X11 only delays the inevitable.  Switching the hash to X11 would only spite the current manufacturers while ultimately failing in the goal of preventing ASIC’s later.  It gets even worse.  If the cost of entry for a particular PoW is very high by design, that increases the chance of fewer competing manufacturers entering a market.  This is the worst possible outcome for any Bitcoin-like network that relies upon large quantities of greedy miners to outdo each other to maintain network security.

The quoted adam3mus is a brain on legs. He knows far too much about hashing, I think he invented hashcash wash was used to make bitcoin feasible. He does, however, suffer from alt-coin phobia.

Litecoin/Vertcoin (Scrypt and Scrypt-N) have made two choices that will boomerang in the long-term.

1) Declaring asic immunity (which is false - one only needs to see vertcoin's title that says "no more asics") and using it as a selling point. Litecoin discovered their claim was bogus when it was GPU mineable. They are true when they say that if a hash can be GPU-mined, it can be ASICed. Same is true for scrypt, scryptN, x11 etc.

2) Using much RAM as a cost-deterrent. This will only make ASICs much more expensive than normal ASICs and if it works as they say it will, then it will have the unintended consequence that scrypt and particularly scrypt-N ASICs will be out of reach for most people => worse decentralization in terms of hashing power.

Theoretically x11 hashes are easier to implement on ASIC (as single hashes - as a chained hash we'll see how it goes). But x11 asics will eventually be cheaper for the masses (better asic decentralization) as they do not carry the ram cost that will make scryptN asics much more expensive.

In any case, when a new mining equipment comes out that is orders of magnitude faster, it should be available to everyone for fairness reasons. Coins that will try to remain at the GPU-only phase will always have the threat of ASIC on the horizon on what would happen if an ASIC came along. It will be a dejavu situation with early February over here and cpu mining vs fears of gpu miners being available in the wild. And if a coin like Vert states it will change PoW when ASICs are out, then they've opened their cards and ASIC manufacturers will outplay them: They'll make the ASICs and use it to mine scryptN networks while these networks are oblivious to ASICs existence. I did an estimation that if a manufacturer makes a few ASICs that capture 30% of an enlarged scryptN market in the next year that produces something like 1000 BTC per day in altcoins, then it's 300 BTC per day in profit / 9000 BTC per month. Even if BTC is at 500$ it'll be 4.5mn USD per month - and this power will masquarade as GPU power. If BTC is at 1000, we are talking about 9mn per month.

Btw, I laugh when I see gpu miners talk about their "concerns" on decentralization. We all know that miners go to large pools irregardless of the hashpower concentration as they don't care that much. In order to avoid variance, they can go to pools with 20-30-50% of the hashpower and then complain that ASICs will be bad for centralization and bad for the network.

I dont think that X11 will be easy to make work on ASICs at all, not impossible, but extremely expensive to develop, think about it, you have 11 different algorithms that need to be processed, an ASIC is designed for one application, hence the name "application specific" in this case we have had SHA-256 and now Scrypt ASICs coming onto the market, the big difference is that with X11 ASIC's is that they probably will have to develop 11 different ASIC chips for each algorithm in the unit or integrate all of them into one chip, this will make the development costs far higher.
Scrypt-n is a joke, the hashrate is halved from that of scrypt, which is bad enough for mining vertcoin, look how hard it is to mine the things, i can get just under 2 vertcoins a day at 1500 KH.
I would like to see a coin that had the ability to change to random hashing algorithms including newly developed ones so that they could always stay on top of the ASIC game.

[CHAOSiTEC]

That's a beauty: https://i.imgur.com/fIhcGBN.jpg

thats a really good one!

[LimLims]

Could I make a request.

This thread is, by and large, tech focused. The voting is going to be done by those who see things from a particular bias. These branding decisions are going to have a longer-term impact on a wide group of people.

I would question whether the branding decision making process shouldn't be extended beyond to gain the perspective of potential target users. That would necessity a view on who would be the potential target users.

I am not an expert in branding. But I have had to employ branding experts to launch a financial product for a supermarket environment. I can't tell you how conservative established brands can be and how every potential threat to image is considered in absolute detail. What ends up happening is a process that lasts ages and can involve focus groups of potential users.

I am concerned about DarkSend.

Darkcoin is fine. You can have whatever branding you like for that. DarkSend is the e-cash that you would want to compete for the right to be the cash for the internet. That means mass consumer adoption and integrating with brands, hopefully.  How would a DarkSend logo work with Amazon or WalMart.com?

I would almost question the use of DarkSend as a name. DarkSend does the job, but what are the first impressions it gives? iCash would be a choice by Apple.

Zerocash is a stupid consumer name. It makes you think of not having any money.

Can we try and think of this from the point of view of who we think the end users are going to be?

As much as I agree with you, the only solution I see to the issues you raise is to hire a branding & marketing agency. Which would cost some serious $$.

Branding that tests well with the cryptocurrency community won't necessarily test well with non-techy people and new market entrants, and vice-versa. Really, it's the latter that our branding should be targeted at. The people here are already sold on Darkcoin, so why should our branding be tailored to our aesthetics?

The ideal way to go about this would be to have branding experts arrange focus groups for people who know nothing about Darkcoin or cryptocurrencies in general. The way we're currently approaching it is a compromise.

What I will suggest to everyone who will vote in the logo selection: please consider that the logo is not for us -- it's for people who know absolutely nothing about Darkcoin and are encountering it for the first time.

[AlexGR]

Spotted a nice, classy gold/black logo: https://i.imgur.com/nLGuUAV.jpg

[nzminer]

instead of Dark Send, something like "Invisible Pay" or something along the lines that suggests invisibility or anonymity of a transaction is whats needed.

[CHAOSiTEC]