[Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]

[ElGrandJefe]

Josh claimed - in this thread - that the tapeout took place in August 2013. The Skype log from November 6, 2013 seems to contradict that, doesn't it?

[11/6/2013 11:19:29 AM] Josh Zerlan: Honestly, if we haven't even taped out at this
point, I dont' see us shipping a product until the very end of January at the
earliest, more like middle of February.

If you check the Wayback Machine 6 weeks later, they were still claiming that August 2013 tapeout:
https://web.archive.org/web/20131219192442/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/

So the shipping dates were not changed at all any time close to that conversation.

Or am I missing something?

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[supbits]

15. Tape out August 2013

True.

[11/6/2013 11:19:29 AM] Josh Zerlan: Honestly, if we haven't even taped out at this
point, I dont' see us shipping a product until the very end of January at the
earliest, more like middle of February.

Source: http://ia902308.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531.42.7.pdf

Did someone say "hypocricy [sic] and duplicity"?

To be fair you're quoting something back in time which doesn't really make sense. What you should be quoting is the resultant shipping dates he came up with after that November conversation.

Sure it makes sense. It only bolsters the evidence - he claimed a few weeks ago, in this thread, that they taped out in August - while the Skype logs show that he knew otherwise all the way back in November.

[dogie]

15. Tape out August 2013

True.

[11/6/2013 11:19:29 AM] Josh Zerlan: Honestly, if we haven't even taped out at this
point, I dont' see us shipping a product until the very end of January at the
earliest, more like middle of February.

Source: http://ia902308.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531.42.7.pdf

Did someone say "hypocricy [sic] and duplicity"?

To be fair you're quoting something back in time which doesn't really make sense. What you should be quoting is the resultant shipping dates he came up with after that November conversation.

Sure it makes sense. It only bolsters the evidence - he claimed a few weeks ago, in this thread, that they taped out in August - while the Skype logs show that he knew otherwise all the way back in November.

Okay, nevermind. I didn't know when the very original quote was from.

[Inaba]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to. Don't try to play semantic games to make your false statements appear to be true (oddly enough Dogie appears to be the rational one in this case... Mind blown).

Dick Trickle there was asking about false advertising and I was responding. We did absolutely believe we would tape out in August when that ad copy was created.

[dogie]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to. Don't try to play semantic games to make your false statements appear to be true (oddly enough Dogie appears to be the rational one in this case... Mind blown).

Dick Trickle there was asking about false advertising and I was responding. We did absolutely believe we would tape out in August when that ad copy was created.

That's the problem with the cut and chopped version of the chat logs, people are going to move time around to fit their version of the story. You should post the full chat log as its going to come out / be requested anyway.

[jimmothy]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to. Don't try to play semantic games to make your false statements appear to be true (oddly enough Dogie appears to be the rational one in this case... Mind blown).

Dick Trickle there was asking about false advertising and I was responding. We did absolutely believe we would tape out in August when that ad copy was created.

I don't think you understand what your being sued for or what false advertising entails.

Just because the statement may have been true for a few days doesn't mean you can advertise it for months after it becoming false.

You guys edited the monarch page several times in the past months yet decided to conveniently leave up all the now false advertisements in order to bring in more customers.

FTC is will soon prove that your little games do not fly.

To refresh your memory, here's what you're being sued for:

Deceptive Acts or Practices

An act or practice is deceptive where
• A representation, omission, or practice misleads
or is likely to mislead the consumer;

"accidentally" leaving up "tapeout in August" long after August is indeed likely to mislead the customer don't you think?

Or what about accidentally leaving up the totally fair comparison that showed the competition at $17/gh and 2.5w/gh?

[Lassi]

The chat clearly shows he knew it was deceptive and helped to manage the message so that the real timeline of tape out and shipping was not given to the public when he knew that they hadn't even taped out even by November 26th 2013 according to the chat. All the while in the forums he was busy managing the perception of the Monarch as imminent or without any problems with the "initial" timeline.

[11/12/2013 1:00:53 PM] Josh Zerlan: Well, I'm all for June actually
[11/12/2013 1:01:00 PM] Josh Zerlan: Then if we deliver in March, we look good.
[11/12/2013 1:01:19 PM] Josh Zerlan: Instead of giving them false promises for
November when we didn't even tape out until November.
[11/12/2013 1:01:57 PM] Sonny: Clearly when we laid out that timeline, we fully
expected tapeout sooner than November.
[11/12/2013 1:02:11 PM] Sonny: You, me - chronicle tech etc.
[11/12/2013 1:02:14 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I knew we would not be taping out until
late October at the earliest.

[11/12/2013 1:11:26 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: We can announce that we've taped out on
Friday
[11/12/2013 1:11:35 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: and let everyone know how it goes
[11/12/2013 1:11:55 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I don't thin kwe should mention when we
taped out. We were suppose to tape out in September. Telling them we taped out
last week is suicide.

[11/12/2013 1:19:12 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: we have to play the best we can with it
[11/12/2013 1:19:22 PM] Josh Zerlan: Indeed, so lets play it properly this time and
tell peole a realistic timeline.

[11/12/2013 2:47:27 PM] Josh Zerlan: You can't base your PR around that fact.
[11/12/2013 2:47:31 PM] Josh Zerlan: PR is perception, not facts.

[11/12/2013 2:47:58 PM] Josh Zerlan: The perception is we were to deliver in
November or at the latest December.

[11/26/2013 11:15:19 AM] Josh Zerlan: We still haven't even taped out 28nm, though.
We still have 16 and then by the time that's out, we're looking at 12 or 10.

What did we do last time? We lied about the timeline.

What should we do this time? Manage the message so that customers are retained and we do not lose even more market share. After all PR is perception not FACTS.

Here are some listed falsehoods that Inaba posted regarding shipping / production of the Monarch in these forums. Check that against the dates in the above chats. Lies and falsehoods abound.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.msg9031471#msg9031471

[Inaba]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to. Don't try to play semantic games to make your false statements appear to be true (oddly enough Dogie appears to be the rational one in this case... Mind blown).

Dick Trickle there was asking about false advertising and I was responding. We did absolutely believe we would tape out in August when that ad copy was created.

That's the problem with the cut and chopped version of the chat logs, people are going to move time around to fit their version of the story. You should post the full chat log as its going to come out / be requested anyway.

That is the complete chat logs. I had nothing to do with the release of that information, that was all the FTC and they released everything as far as I can tell.

[dogie]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to. Don't try to play semantic games to make your false statements appear to be true (oddly enough Dogie appears to be the rational one in this case... Mind blown).

Dick Trickle there was asking about false advertising and I was responding. We did absolutely believe we would tape out in August when that ad copy was created.

That's the problem with the cut and chopped version of the chat logs, people are going to move time around to fit their version of the story. You should post the full chat log as its going to come out / be requested anyway.

That is the complete chat logs. I had nothing to do with the release of that information, that was all the FTC and they released everything as far as I can tell.

Its not the original chat log I mean. It skips from page 7 to 55, 57 to 83 etc. The original chat log was found on your computer, to which the FTC imaged but you would also have a copy still. Are you back on Kansas time?

[Inaba]

I don't have access to anything more than anyone else as far as that goes.

[dogie]

I don't have access to anything more than anyone else as far as that goes.

It was on your computer. Do you not have access to your computers any more?

[Inaba]

No, I don't.

[Gleb Gamow]

As many as is considered acceptable by customers. Having a backlog of orders behind schedule isn't considered acceptable - unless they're being compensated acceptably. Note thats actually being compensated, not promised to be compensated.

Ok, so who is complaining about the compensation?  They are being given a full refund, more hashrate or a combination of the two.  What more do you want?

Eh? You're saying "we don't use preorders" on the basis that you don't take any sales at all. In that case you should be removed from the list entirely because you're not an ASIC company in the recent few months right? You're business model is currently preorder based and until you make an effort to change that you will remain 1/20 for that category.

We stop taking orders and that's not an "effort to change that?"  LOL... what is an effort to change that then, if not that?

Do you have a link to any cases I can view online so I can review? The papers from Woodlaw schedule show nothing to prevent it being a class action.

Link to cases that don't exist?  What are you talking about?  You do know how class action lawsuits work, right?  A judge needs to grant the class action case and the party bringing the suit has to bring credible evidence that warrants class status.  There's basically nothing so far that would warrant such a status.  But disregarding the speculation, the fact is that it is NOT a class action suit at this time and will NOT be one anytime soon.  That is indisputable fact, not speculation.

And I never said the two weeks was in regards to shipping. Saying no one has ever been banned from the BFL forums for saying anything negative though is pretty laughable though. Every time you ban an innocent they come over here and make a post along the lines of "yeah I just said "when can we expect x y z and got permabanned? :/." I'm not one of those obsessed with your company and I'm not going to turn this into a quote war. I'm not even going to invite anyone else to do so because I don't want this thead to turn into BFL vs the world like the other 10 threads.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/8203-win-butterfly-labs-imperial-monarch.html You paid your customers to discredit me.

You never said two weeks was in regards to shipping?  Then what is it in regards to, pray tell?  As far as being banned from the BFL forums, please provide actual evidence, not your supposition.  Once again, you make claims but you can't actually back them up with evidence.  You provide the evidence and I will explain to you exactly why that person was banned, with evidence to back up my claim.  See, that's the difference between you and me.  I back up my claims with evidence, you have yet failed to do so.

As far as "paying people to discredit you."  What a pompous, self important ass you are.  It was about showing what a joke the trust rating system is, not about you.  I don't care one whit about you. You were just a convenient demonstration piece, being as you are active in spreading false information on the forums, so a logical choice for the demonstration.  The fact that you are upset about it proves my point, so thanks for confirming that the trust system is a broken joke.  How is that discrediting you, if the trust system works?  If the trust system doesn't work, how are you discredited?  It's not about you and never has been.  Deflate your ego a little bit, man.

You've not pointed out any facts, nor presented any evidence. You keep saying "that's a lie that's a lie" yet you're not actually talking about anything, its hard to argue against that :s

Are you serious?  I have presented you with facts based off your guide and you claim I haven't pointed out any facts?  Let me quote my post again.

Delivered miners?  Few ... I mean, it's not like BFL hasen't delivered over 50k miners or anything.  I guess anyone who's delivered less than 50k miners has delivered "few."  Oh wait... that doesn't jive with the rest of your chart.
Uses preorders?   Yes ... O Rly? BFL Hasn't taken preorders in months. Additionally we were and are selling off the shelf miners from the 65nm generation.
Refund Issues?   BFL has been issuing refunds to anyone and everyone who asks for them prior to delivery of their order for awhile now. Prior to that, any order that was over 6 months old was refundable in full.
Communication? We are more open about our process and timeline than just about anyone else in the industry.
Ethics: You've created a special category with our name because you don't like us, plain and simple.

Dogie... those are facts. We've delivered over 50k miners (actually over 60k now).  It's gone from "delivered miners" to "delivered miners recently" now that I've provided the facts that you are wrong.
Uses preorders?  Fact: BFL does not take preorders and hasn't for almost 6 months.
Refund issues: Fact: BFL provides full refunds
Communication: Fact: BFL communicates regularly
Ethics: Fact: You have made a special category just for BFL, making you opinionated and biased.

Those are called facts.  You have presented nothing to the contrary so far except speculation and false information, which are called "not facts."  

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/archive/index.php/t-8481.html

Mots of the programming work is already done on MBGH. We have a very limited number of 600 GH/s cards, so shipping 3 cards to each customer who has an Imperial, while being a good solution, I agree, would only service a very limited number of customers. Even the MBGH plan, with the cards we have, will serve a limited number of customers but it's better than nothing. If we had thousands of boards, we'd ship them out, sure. We don't have thousands of boards... the most we can possibly have by next week is about 500 boards, assuming there are no duds. That number gets reduced if boards fail.

Additionally, with the MBGH plan, even partially working boards can be used for service, whereas a partially working boards can not be shipped to customers.

300 GH orders would also be included in the MBGH plan, as well as MBGH customers. Everyone would be serviced in their order sequence. I don't even know yet how fast we can have MBGH ready to go for something like this. It's true most of it's done, but there's a few touch ups here and there that need to happen. Once I get an answer back as to how long it will take to finish those, that will give a better idea on the feasibility. However, if most everyone is against it, then it's a moot point.

I need to trademark 2 weeks. How did that saying even get started? I never used two weeks, except once in reference to FCC certification, and it was a question, not even a statement. Heh. I like it though... I think I will definitely have to use that as my epitaph.

[Lassi]

BFL_Josh
05-29-2014, 04:14 PM

Customer: Try expressing the pain in dollars (or worse: btc) and tell me again you suffer as badly as your customers. IF that were true, you'd be filing for bankruptcy.

Josh: So let me get this straight... you'd prefer that we go bankrupt and no one gets their hardware? Because, you know, that makes sense. And you wonder why I don't bother responding and/or removing completely stupid posts like this.

Customer: Well for starters as the COO of the company you could always abide by the law and refund folks when they ask for it. Keeping their money for an extended period of time means you are acting as a fiduciary and must abide by certian regulations. (I was a broker/trader so trust me on this one) Having your own rules that do not support the law will get you in trouble. (Trust me on this one also) Also, deleting peoples posts in a public forum is attempting to exert a level of control on a populous that always back fires. You just fuel the fire.

In any case You have a hell of mess on your hands. You developed a product that would have been amazing 2-3 months ago. Now it's an overpriced borderline obsolete piece. There are 1, 2 and 3 Th/s machines on the market that are priced cheaper by the Gh/s. You guys are holding on to the efficiency piece which is all you have left imho. I don't think that there is a good solution left for you. Not where you remain solvent anyhow. My advice - Refund to those customer who want it. Today. Deliver to those that are willing to wait, and give them a fair amount of hashing power for their dollars. Not 600Gg/a and a free one or something of the like, but rather what would actually make them some money. You can't offer what they would have gotten if you had delivered in Jan, Feb, Or March, but at least give them a way to make their money and at the same time create some loyal customers out of them. You need a few of those right now.

So it likes this to me: You have a hot mess with your production, plagued by delays, a class action law suit already formed against you, several smaller individual law suits, and an angry mob of customers who want their products delivered which you can't fullfill. More than likely you also have a ton of customers demanding refunds which you do not have the cash flow to fulfill either.

Let's see if I'm right and you delete this post. I'm willing to bet a couple Monarch's that you do. - Oh wait. They don't exist....

Josh: Your posts keep getting deleted because you continue to advocate for things you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I do not "trust you on this one" because you are obviously not a lawyer and have absolutely no idea what the law actually says as you've made painfully clear. Until you do have a thorough understanding of the law, stop trying to post poor, incorrect legal advice. Again, the advice of "give customers free petahashes LOL!!1!" is not valid advice. The solution of "go bankrupt and don't give anyone hardware" is just completely idiotic and I have absolutely no idea why you try to keep posting it, but I will continue to delete it and eventually ban your account if you refuse to stop.

There is no existing class action lawsuit against us, so stop spreading that rumor, it's getting old. In addition to that, what part of "This is a pre-order product, if you are not comfortable with waiting then do not preorder." was unclear when you read it?


---

Editorial: Given what the transcript from Skype shows and the reality of the situation at BFL at the time this customer was 100% spot on back then and is 100% spot on today. Just more evidence of BFL and Josh were managing the message and squashing any discussion regarding the reality of the situation. Those who think he was a 'white knight' in all this are either paid shills, employees or just delusional. Clearly BFL was managing PR in such a manner as to keep customers even when those customers knew they were being fed inaccurate information / spin / lies and falsehoods. Why would there be any other reason to delete such posts?

[Syke]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to.

Numerous edits were made to the page over many months, every time leaving in place "facts" that were no longer true. Since the people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements, and they chose to leave them in place, they became BFL (Big Fat Lies).

[Xian01]

Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.

Luke: A certain point of view?

Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

[Inaba]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to.

Numerous edits were made to the page over many months, every time leaving in place "facts" that were no longer true. Since the people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements, and they chose to leave them in place, they became BFL (Big Fat Lies).

Not only have I told you that is a false statement, the Internet Archive would seem to disagree with you as well. That would make you a liar.  You wouldn't be posting false information to make yourself feel better about things, would you?  No...

The first time that page was updated, the August Tapeout verbiage was removed.

Who knew?!  Syke lying?  Not like that has ever happened before*

* For any values where Syke does not post, open his mouth or pantomime.

[Syke]

Not only have I told you that is a false statement, the Internet Archive would seem to disagree with you as well. That would make you a liar.  You wouldn't be posting false information to make yourself feel better about things, would you?  No...

The first time that page was updated, the August Tapeout verbiage was removed.

As I said, numerous edits were made to that page, while Big Fat Lies were left in place. Here's just one example.

Sep 1, 2014

https://web.archive.org/web/20140901161740/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/

The bottom line is that BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC.

Bitmain released their 2nd 28nm chip in July. Since I don't have the exact dates of the Monarch page updates, I'll just post 2 more that prove edits were made to that page after Bitmain released their 2nd chip.

In Aug the old stats were there: https://web.archive.org/web/20140824162506/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/
In Sep the new stats were there: https://web.archive.org/web/20140901161740/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/

Conclusion. I win. You lose.

[Flying Hellfish]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to.

Numerous edits were made to the page over many months, every time leaving in place "facts" that were no longer true. Since the people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements, and they chose to leave them in place, they became BFL (Big Fat Lies).

Not only have I told you that is a false statement, the Internet Archive would seem to agree with you as well. That would make me a liar.  I wouldn't be posting false information to make myself feel better about things, would I?  No...

The first time that page was updated, the August Tapeout verbiage was removed.

Who knew?!  I'm lying?  Not like that has ever happened before*

* For any values where I do not post, open my mouth or pantomime.

FTFY Turbo!

[seriouscoin]

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to.

Numerous edits were made to the page over many months, every time leaving in place "facts" that were no longer true. Since the people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements, and they chose to leave them in place, they became BFL (Big Fat Lies).

Not only have I told you that is a false statement, the Internet Archive would seem to disagree with you as well. That would make you a liar.  You wouldn't be posting false information to make yourself feel better about things, would you?  No...

The first time that page was updated, the August Tapeout verbiage was removed.

Who knew?!  Syke lying?  Not like that has ever happened before*

* For any values where Syke does not post, open his mouth or pantomime.

Hey bitch, did your ugly wife knows you're fcking younger girls?