[Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]

[jimmothy]

I've updated dogies guide rating from 5/10 down to 1/10

Why is BA 5/10 ethics even though they are several times more unethical than the current BFL? In fact I'd say they are the least ethical company still selling hardware.

We've been though this so many times... Show me an ethics score modifier that I can actually apply to BA.

Why don't you just randomly add one like you did for BFL?

It's clear as day that hashcoins is a scam.

Apart from they're delivering Apollo and Ares orders absolutely fine, and there are ZERO reports of the Zeus being 'dodgy'. If you're absolutely 100% sure its a scam, then I'll take you up on a 10 to 0 escrowed btc bet. If their Zeus boards are even remotely close to as they claim, I get 10btc. If not, you get an I told you so. ....Which will happen right, because you're 100% sure?

If you're not, then you shouldn't be flaming me for not marking a company a scam which has ZERO reports from CUSTOMERS about Zeus boards being bad.

There are zero reports of bad zues boards being bad because nobody has ever received them. Looking through the entire hashcoins thread I found only one guy who received a zues miner and it was the unimpressive version.

I'm not going to make a bet because I'm only 75% sure they are a scam but 100% sure they have some ethics issues.

MrTeal was willing to give them 100 BTC if they were able to sell him a zues board that performed to spec and they declined. Why do you think?

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[dogie]

Someone should do a proper community based guide with a number of reviewers sampling community opinion. Make his version obsolete.

You mean like you already did

Interesting you equate my guide to a copy of your guide.

No I didn't, look at the quote.

[dogie]

I've updated dogies guide rating from 5/10 down to 1/10

Why is BA 5/10 ethics even though they are several times more unethical than the current BFL? In fact I'd say they are the least ethical company still selling hardware.

We've been though this so many times... Show me an ethics score modifier that I can actually apply to BA.

Why don't you just randomly add one like you did for BFL?

So you're flaming me because I won't 'make up' an ethics modifier for the last possible 4 points... why exactly? I already applied the -5, that's as high as it goes [now] without a regulatory body's involvement.

Blackarrow is joint 2nd last, ahead only of a totally bankrupt company, I'm not sure what you expect to happen.

[dogie]

It's clear as day that hashcoins is a scam.

Apart from they're delivering Apollo and Ares orders absolutely fine, and there are ZERO reports of the Zeus being 'dodgy'. If you're absolutely 100% sure its a scam, then I'll take you up on a 10 to 0 escrowed btc bet. If their Zeus boards are even remotely close to as they claim, I get 10btc. If not, you get an I told you so. ....Which will happen right, because you're 100% sure?

If you're not, then you shouldn't be flaming me for not marking a company a scam which has ZERO reports from CUSTOMERS about Zeus boards being bad.

There are zero reports of bad zues boards being bad because nobody has ever received them. Looking through the entire hashcoins thread I found only one guy who received a zues miner and it was the unimpressive version.

I'm not going to make a bet because I'm only 75% sure they are a scam but 100% sure they have some ethics issues.

MrTeal was willing to give them 100 BTC if they were able to sell him a zues board that performed to spec and they declined. Why do you think?

So there are 0 reports, as you've confirmed, everything else is conjecture and not something you can justify destroying a company's reputation over. And again, they already have a lower score of 55, in the same league with Bitmine, BFL and KNCMiner. I assume even if they had a rating of 20 you'd still be flaming for a lower score in the same regard.

[dogie]

...

• SpondooliesTech Preorders up from 'Yes' to 'Mix' (1 to 8]. *Although SpondooliesTech is currently selling out of hand, they have not yet demonstrated that their business model can support this into the next generation. On the announcement of next gen preorders, this rating will return to 'Yes'. On the announcement of next gen in hand / batch sales, this rating will increase to 'Batch' or 'No'.

...

In general, I believe you're doing a decent job with the guide.
Regarding our score, we're currently selling from stock all our products line. It seems to me a bit unfair and last minute change of your scoring criteria.

As we discussed at length, nothing has changed in the criteria. Preorders are a critical measure and as such have always had a time historical lag as well as additionally considering the business model. It is not justifiable for you (or BFL, or any other company) to sell $30M of hardware [random numbers to illustrate] via preorders and then to sell $3M from overstock and claim that you don't use preorders. The entire business model is based off preorders, and there is a 90% chance that made up scenario's company will return to using preorders as soon as they announce the next generation.

And as such, they can only receive an interim 'does preorder and doesn't preorder - mixed' rating, until they can prove that their business model does NOT rely on customer funds via preorders. That reliance is demonstrated during the announcement of the next generation, which for ST is likely to be 0-6 months as opposed to 7-12. If you sell the next generation via preorders, you're running a preorder model business and so receive a 'Yes'. If you sell the next generation from hand and are committed to a no preorder business model then you receive a 'No'.

tldr nothing has changed, you can't sell a few older units from stock and claim you are an 'in stock company' until you demonstrate that your entire business model isn't designed around preorders.

[Guy Corem]

...

• SpondooliesTech Preorders up from 'Yes' to 'Mix' (1 to 8]. *Although SpondooliesTech is currently selling out of hand, they have not yet demonstrated that their business model can support this into the next generation. On the announcement of next gen preorders, this rating will return to 'Yes'. On the announcement of next gen in hand / batch sales, this rating will increase to 'Batch' or 'No'.

...

In general, I believe you're doing a decent job with the guide.
Regarding our score, we're currently selling from stock all our products line. It seems to me a bit unfair and last minute change of your scoring criteria.

As we discussed at length, nothing has changed in the criteria. Preorders are a critical measure and as such have always had a time historical lag as well as additionally considering the business model. It is not justifiable for you (or BFL, or any other company) to sell $30M of hardware [random numbers to illustrate] via preorders and then to sell $3M from overstock and claim that you don't use preorders. The entire business model is based off preorders, and there is a 90% chance that made up scenario's company will return to using preorders as soon as they announce the next generation.

And as such, they can only receive an interim 'does preorder and doesn't preorder - mixed' rating, until they can prove that their business model does NOT rely on customer funds via preorders. That reliance is demonstrated during the announcement of the next generation, which for ST is likely to be 0-6 months as opposed to 7-12. If you sell the next generation via preorders, you're running a preorder model business and so receive a 'Yes'. If you sell the next generation from hand and are committed to a no preorder business model then you receive a 'No'.

tldr nothing has changed, you can't sell a few older units from stock and claim you are an 'in stock company' until you demonstrate that your entire business model isn't designed around preorders.

I've explained at length why we don't take preorders on our 3rd gen - it's considerable riskier development than our 2nd gen. Risk level which is suitable to accredited investor, not consumer.

I also explained to you our businesses model in 2015, which doesn't include preorders.

We didn't take preorders on the 1st gen, we took preorders on the 2nd gen, missed the spec and compensated our customers (over 98% done, the rest will be done this month)

For the last 2 months, we're selling proven hardware with known spec. It's not preorders. And it's definitely not "few older models". It's the best mining gear in the industry.

I urge you to admit an error and fix our rating.

Guy

[raskul]

I also explained to you our businesses model in 2015, which doesn't include preorders.

this pleases me immensely 

We didn't take preorders on the 1st gen, we took preorders on the 2nd gen, missed the spec and compensated our customers (over 98% done, the rest will be done this month)

For the last 2 months, we're selling proven hardware with known spec. It's not preorders. And it's definitely not "few older models". It's the best mining gear in the industry.

I urge you to admit an error and fix our rating.

Guy

+1

[dogie]

we took preorders on the 2nd gen

We're in the 2nd gen.

[Guy Corem]

we took preorders on the 2nd gen

We're in the 2nd gen.

Once the spec is known, it's not preorders anymore.
It's backlog of orders.

[ElGrandJefe]

we took preorders on the 2nd gen

We're in the 2nd gen.

Once the spec is known, it's not preorders anymore.
It's backlog of orders.

I know the point that you're trying to make, but I'm afraid it's not valid.

If you're not shipping from stock, you're taking preorders, whether you have the specs are not.

This is only fair, because anyone can say "we have the specs" and "we've taped out", even though they don't and haven't (see BFL, BA).

[MrTeal]

I know the point that you're trying to make, but I'm afraid it's not valid.

If you're not shipping from stock, you're taking preorders, whether you have the specs are not.

This is only fair, because anyone can say "we have the specs" and "we've taped out", even though they don't and haven't (see BFL, BA).

I'd disagree on that to a point. If the spec is known on a chip but a product hasn't been finalized and produced, I would agree that it's still a preorder.
Once you're producing and shipping them, if demand exceeds supply and you run out of stock, sales going forward would be backordered. That's pretty standard in every other tech industry that for an existing product if it's not in stock it's backordered.

The problem with preorders is that they shift the risk of development onto the customer. Any delays in the development cycle (or underperformance in the final system) are usually borne without compensation by the consumer. A backorder is different since the only real risk is meeting production and shipping deadlines.

If SP (or anyone else) runs out of product and advertises it as "not in stock, usually available in 2-4 weeks" that's no longer a preorder, and if they miss the stated timeframe for shipping that should affect the On Time category, not the preorder category.

[Flashman]

Honestly curious, how much bigger do KNC's and Bitfury's mining operations have to get before they get an FF ?

[Bicknellski]

Honestly curious, how much bigger do KNC's and Bitfury's mining operations have to get before they get an FF ?

 

I wonder.

[Pentax]

How is company size determined?

[ElGrandJefe]

I know the point that you're trying to make, but I'm afraid it's not valid.

If you're not shipping from stock, you're taking preorders, whether you have the specs are not.

This is only fair, because anyone can say "we have the specs" and "we've taped out", even though they don't and haven't (see BFL, BA).

I'd disagree on that to a point. If the spec is known on a chip but a product hasn't been finalized and produced, I would agree that it's still a preorder.
Once you're producing and shipping them, if demand exceeds supply and you run out of stock, sales going forward would be backordered. That's pretty standard in every other tech industry that for an existing product if it's not in stock it's backordered.

The problem with preorders is that they shift the risk of development onto the customer. Any delays in the development cycle (or underperformance in the final system) are usually borne without compensation by the consumer. A backorder is different since the only real risk is meeting production and shipping deadlines.

If SP (or anyone else) runs out of product and advertises it as "not in stock, usually available in 2-4 weeks" that's no longer a preorder, and if they miss the stated timeframe for shipping that should affect the On Time category, not the preorder category.

"Having the specs" isn't the same as "having the chips and boards and then running out because your suppliers can't keep up with your orders". That's what I meant.

But if you're collecting a bunch of orders and THEN using that money to buy the components, you have a pre-order model.

How is company size determined?

Yeah, BA gives the impression that they're three guys working out of the back seat of somebody's car, who occasionally order some contract assembly work. I'd like to hear how they got classified as "Large".

[Pentax]

I know the point that you're trying to make, but I'm afraid it's not valid.

If you're not shipping from stock, you're taking preorders, whether you have the specs are not.

This is only fair, because anyone can say "we have the specs" and "we've taped out", even though they don't and haven't (see BFL, BA).

I'd disagree on that to a point. If the spec is known on a chip but a product hasn't been finalized and produced, I would agree that it's still a preorder.
Once you're producing and shipping them, if demand exceeds supply and you run out of stock, sales going forward would be backordered. That's pretty standard in every other tech industry that for an existing product if it's not in stock it's backordered.

The problem with preorders is that they shift the risk of development onto the customer. Any delays in the development cycle (or underperformance in the final system) are usually borne without compensation by the consumer. A backorder is different since the only real risk is meeting production and shipping deadlines.

If SP (or anyone else) runs out of product and advertises it as "not in stock, usually available in 2-4 weeks" that's no longer a preorder, and if they miss the stated timeframe for shipping that should affect the On Time category, not the preorder category.

"Having the specs" isn't the same as "having the chips and boards and then running out because your suppliers can't keep up with your orders". That's what I meant.

But if you're collecting a bunch of orders and THEN using that money to buy the components, you have a pre-order model.

How is company size determined?

Yeah, BA gives the impression that they're three guys working out of the back seat of somebody's car, who occasionally order some contract assembly work. I'd like to hear how they got classified as "Large".

Yep, I'd agree.  They've outsourced assembly, which it seemed they were going to do in-house by touting a huge capacity, which it turned out they apparently didn't have, then they outsourced their rent-a-minion to a 'partner', which is also something that they seemingly made it appear as if they'd be doing themselves by commenting multiple times on the ramp up of the data center, saying at one point it was done, then it wasn't (saying it didn't exist so they couldn't be self mining, after saying it did, which is a whole other can of worms) now they've outsourced it, apparently.  

I don't think they actually fabricated any of the components and they're not even assembling what they've designed, assuming they actually did the design, although I think at one point they had to bring in outside help to solve one or more problems.  They don't seem to be hosting any of the rentaminion contracts that they sold, so, to me, it looks like only a handful of people involved.  

I guess I'm just wondering how the rating is formulated in general and how it is assessed.  Not jumping on Dogie's ass, just curious about what constitutes a given ranking, ie, is 'large' 20 employees, 50 employees, etc.  and how that is determined.

[dogie]

Honestly curious, how much bigger do KNC's and Bitfury's mining operations have to get before they get an FF ?

No one gets an FF any more, only Fs. Just left it in the criteria in case people find fragments on archive sites.

[wh00per]

"Having the specs" isn't the same as "having the chips and boards and then running out because your suppliers can't keep up with your orders". That's what I meant.

But if you're collecting a bunch of orders and THEN using that money to buy the components, you have a pre-order model.

Pre-order model applies when you did not yet engineered or released the product to the market, and you're looking to do that with customer's money.
If a product is out-of-stock, but released to the market, that's back-log OR made-to-order model.

If you buy a BMW, you don't pre-order .. however they're assembling the car after you ordered it and the sales people get their commissions from your down-payment.
The manufacturer gets his money right after, from the financing institution (if any) .. and you're paying back what you owe to the financing guys.

[jimmothy]

So you're flaming me because I won't 'make up' an ethics modifier for the last possible 4 points... why exactly? I already applied the -5, that's as high as it goes [now] without a regulatory body's involvement.

Blackarrow is joint 2nd last, ahead only of a totally bankrupt company, I'm not sure what you expect to happen.

Don't you see how flawed your ethics rating is?

You've given the least ethical companies 5/10 yet BFL (who has made significant improvements) is guaranteed 1/10 because no matter what you will just keep adding new criteria to make it happen.

So there are 0 reports, as you've confirmed, everything else is conjecture and not something you can justify destroying a company's reputation over. And again, they already have a lower score of 55, in the same league with Bitmine, BFL and KNCMiner. I assume even if they had a rating of 20 you'd still be flaming for a lower score in the same regard.

I didn't destroy their reputation, they did it to themselves when they faked cgminer stats, threatened the community with frivolous lawsuits, and refused to ship a zues board to MrTeal for 100 btc.

How can you justify advertising this company when we've seen zero confirmed reports of their new hardware, and only maybe 5 reports of their old unimpressive hardware? (all from noobs)

If i start a company and drop ship a rebranded miner or two will you add it to the list? Or am I required to send you a miner?

[Pentax]

PS, Black Arrow deleted my post in their moderated thread, the only company to do so.

You must've hurt their wittew feewings.

That's what happens when people speak the truth about their crappy company.  Delete posts they don't like, claim people are paid by competitors as the reason for doing so (by their own admission without any proof thereof), blame everyone from the suppliers to the shippers for the failures of what they ship to people, and then wail like they lost their puppy when people that have spent thousands of dollars and were promised plenty to get their business are now left with junk if they're lucky, and flaming, toxic junk if they're not so lucky.

Their claim was that they were deleting posts made by people paid by the competition or just trolling in a couple of cases, so I guess this means they think Dogie is paid by the competition or maybe he's just trolling them with his one post a month.  Another possibility is that they are lying sacks of shit that would rather people not know the truth about their lousy company.

Maybe a rating of "This Company Sucks" for these extra-special companies.  Short, sweet, and to the point.   





The "This Company Sucks" rating: always earned, never given.