★ ZEIT ★ [COMMUNITY & KNIGHTS] [ULTRA LOW INFLATION] [MICRO-PAYMENTS]

[kiklo]

I don't like the idea to go straight to 5%.
That would just show that zeit is weak.
If the community is strong enough the problem should be solved otherwise we or better said Zeit has no future.
I like Zeitcoin but just the strong survive.
But at least the Zeitknights will make a decision.

Understandable , but dropping to 5% would have some positive effects, the value of your zeitcoins would rise faster as the exchanges will not be loaded with people selling their stake keeping the price per zeit lower. Plus it requires you to own more zeit to be able to stake the same amount and weakens any whales out there. Don't forget we got 1 whale with 4 billion coins at the moment.

Dropping to 5% keeps a high enough rate , that we still perform better than most real world rates.
It would increase the security of the zeitcoins you already own by blocking these bashing groups.
It will happen in 2 years anyway.

 

[LionOfNarnia]

Bon reposte Monsieur Greer

kiklo, aren't you freakin' over nothing? I'm not worried by juvenile Hitlers like that, and certainly wouldn't support a hard fork to 'protect' us. I have faith in Rays ability to keep the fox out of the henhouse.

[Mitras]

I don't like the idea to go straight to 5%.
That would just show that zeit is weak.
If the community is strong enough the problem should be solved otherwise we or better said Zeit has no future.
I like Zeitcoin but just the strong survive.
But at least the Zeitknights will make a decision.

Understandable , but dropping to 5% would have some positive effects, the value of your zeitcoins would rise faster as the exchanges will not be loaded with people selling their stake keeping the price per zeit lower. Plus it requires you to own more zeit to be able to stake the same amount and weakens any whales out there. Don't forget we got 1 whale with 4 billion coins at the moment.

Dropping to 5% keeps a high enough rate , that we still perform better than most real world rates.
It would increase the security of the zeitcoins you already own by blocking these bashing groups.
It will happen in 2 years anyway.

 

You mean that someone ownes that wallet. As far as I know is that this person is " missed".
But as I said.
The Knights will make a decision. So I just wait for the decision.

[BainbridgeJ]

There has been some recent events that could affect the security of POS coins.
Even to the point of some attacking POS Chains.

At the moment it is not an issue for US , and I would like to keep it that way.
This idea will upset some, and it is not my intention , but we should begin a discussion of it , in case it needs to be done in the future fairly quickly to protect zeitcoin.

Their is a group of individuals forming that plan to intentionally attack POS coins.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=897493.0
And it looks like they have been successful in attacking Apexcoin with an attack.
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/apex/

Depending on how it plays out once more details are known, would the zeit community be willing to forego the year of 20% and the year of 15% and jump straight to the 5% for all time in order to save zeitcoin, if these attempts become an serious issue.

So what is everyone thoughts?


 

I would recommend two ways to beef up the security of any POS coin, particularly Zeitcoin:

1) Use auto-checkpoints;

2) Utilise the Slasher algorithm as suggested by Vitalik Buterin in the Cointelegraph article dated 27th December 2014 -

"In PoS ... nothing would stop someone from using 100% of their coins to mine on two forks at once. Vitalik has thought of a possible solution to this problem: an algorithm called Slasher. With this mining algorithm, a miner would only receive his block reward 3,000 blocks into the future (about 21 days). If someone were to catch an account mining on two chains at one, that person could create a special transaction that would nullify the miner's rewards and give the nullifier a third of that reward as a bounty. Therefore, there would be a strong disincentive for miners to cheat."  http://cointelegraph.com/news/113203/epicenter-bitcoin-ep-58-vitalik-buterin-on-proof-of-stake-and-the-future-of-crypto-economics

Jumping to 5% POS interest requires some thought and I wouldn't advise it unless we have the right infrastructure in place e.g. the ability to appreciably spend and use Zeitcoin in the real world; Android wallets; a substantial number of potential users etc. When we have all that in place, dropping to 5% will encourage people to spend and use, rather than hoard.

For the now though, 20% POS interest will tend to attract more users, while the good progress already achieved is built upon.

[kiklo]

Bon reposte Monsieur Greer

kiklo, aren't you freakin' over nothing? I'm not worried by juvenile Hitlers like that, and certainly wouldn't support a hard fork to 'protect' us. I have faith in Rays ability to keep the fox out of the henhouse.

Hopefully,
our min POS is 20 days, apex min rate was only 24hrs ,
does anyone know for certain what our max pos days are,
(the time when coin stake does not increase any higher).
I also have faith in Ray, but  I like to be prepared ahead of time.
Which is why this discussion was started so early, when it is not currently a serious issue for zeit.

 

[stevegreer]

Bon reposte Monsieur Greer

Merci, monsieur Lion

[kiklo]

IJumping to 5% POS interest requires some thought and I wouldn't advise it unless we have the right infrastructure in place e.g. the ability to appreciably spend and use Zeitcoin in the real world; Android wallets; a substantial number of potential users etc. When we have all that in place, dropping to 5% will encourage people to spend and use, rather than hoard.

For the now though, 20% POS interest will tend to attract more users, while the good progress already achieved is built upon.

Hi Bainbridge,

With Coinpayments we already have some of that infrastructure in place, but it is receiving little use ,
IMO in part to our 20% interest rate, once we drop to 5% our price will rise and stablize , at that point more people will use coinpayments (increasing desire for zeitcoins). The possible future security issue just speeds up the discussion timeline.


 

FYI:
A Centralized Checkpoint server would defeat purpose of being Decentralized , and the only thing that would have to be attacked to damage a network would be the checkpoint servers. It would weaken the network verses making it stronger.
The Slasher algorithm is so drastic , that it is not really even a possible consideration.
The 5% will happen in 2 years anyway.

[BainbridgeJ]

@ Kiklo
Mmmmm ... I would respectfully beg to differ, but will leave it to the Knights to decide. In my opinion, simply dropping to 5% in the immediate future would be premature ... and will still leave potential security holes, but these are issues most POS coins need to address.

[kiklo]

Ok,
 it is apparent from the posts that dropping to 5% 2 years early is not currently acceptable.

Zeit has a 20 day min POS rate verses apex's 24hrs , and that may make all of the difference needed to protect zeitcoins from such an attack.

So we can drop this discussion , unless more coins are attacked in the near future.

Would like to recommend that everyone begin spreading their coins so they stake more times per day, as this will have a effect of strengthening our network without making any code changes.
I am going to use coincontrol and set mine to try and stake every hour for 20 days.
If a lot of people do the same , it should block any potential attack.

Thanks everyone for being part of this discussion.
Hopefully it will not be an issue.


 

[BainbridgeJ]

.. dropping to 5% would have some positive effects, the value of your zeitcoins would rise faster as the exchanges will not be loaded with people selling their stake keeping the price per zeit lower. Plus it requires you to own more zeit to be able to stake the same amount and weakens any whales out there. Don't forget we got 1 whale with 4 billion coins at the moment.

 

Would like to recommend that everyone begin spreading their coins so they stake more times per day, as this will have a effect of strengthening our network without making any code changes.

 

I agree in principle with both of your ideas here for the reasons that you give.

• Dropping the percentage ahead of schedule, at the right time.

• Network security - one way to achieve your goal of strengthening the network in the way that you suggest is to set a maximum amount of POS interest that could be minted by a single coin block - just like HoboNickels do. For example, any block above 5 million Zeit would not be able to mint any more interest than could be generated by 5 million Zeit, or whatever maximum figure might be decided in the future.

 

[Rent_a_Ray]

Mr. Bainbridge is back. It's a beginning 

Cheers

[kiklo]

• Network security - one way to achieve your goal of strengthening the network in the way that you suggest is to set a maximum amount of POS interest that could be minted by a single coin block - just like HoboNickels do. For example, any block above 5 million Zeit would not be able to mint any more interest than could be generated by 5 million Zeit, or whatever maximum figure might be decided in the future.

 

If the security does become an issue later, your idea would deal with it, without requiring a % rate change.
Well Done!

Thanks for that.   


 

[Rent_a_Ray]

Apex dev tries to fix the issue with a lower drift time. (24h -> 5mins)

[kiklo]

Apex dev tries to fix the issue with a lower drift time. (24h -> 5mins)

 
That is not going to work.
In Fact , will make it more vulnerable , also mentioned a checkpoint server.
Talked it over with chainz tech and he said centralized check pointing is not a solution (plus the checkpointing server is vulnerable to ddos and other exploits).


 

[Rent_a_Ray]

Centralizing is no solution, it's the contrary.
I did not post anything about this silly CPS idea. 

But let us play with the time drift scenario.
I don't understand the advantage of it. Can anyone explain?

[kiklo]

Centralizing is no solution, it's the contrary.
I did not post anything about this silly CPS idea. 

But let us play with the time drift scenario.
I don't understand the advantage of it. Can anyone explain?

The wording time drift scenario is unknown to me also.
But I think it was meant to be about POS Stake Time.

Their time before POS stake is 24hrs, I think he intends to drop it to 5 minutes before it could stake,
which I think would make the problem worse not better.


 

[Rent_a_Ray]

I am sure he's talking about the time drift (of clients). Has nothing to with POS.
Your client is valid one if he meats the 24h time window.
He wants to lower the time drift to 5 mins.

In simple words: If your system clock is wrong (<24h) you are a valid client to confirm blocks.

Thats why higher blocks sometimes have an earlier timestamp as the blocks before,.

[kiklo]

I am sure he's talking about the time drift (of clients). Has nothing to with POS.
Your client is valid one if he meats the 24h time window.
He wants to lower the time drift to 5 mins.

In simple words: If your system clock is wrong (<24h) you are a valid client to confirm blocks.

Thats why higher blocks sometimes have an earlier timestamp as the blocks before,.

Oh,
that would make more sense than the POS Rate.


 

[Rent_a_Ray]

Zeitcoin has 2*60*60 = 2h
Apexcoin has 24*60*60 = 24h

Code:

inline int64_t PastDrift(int64_t nTime)   { return nTime - 24 * 60 * 60; } // up to 1 day from the past
inline int64_t FutureDrift(int64_t nTime) { return nTime + 24 * 60 * 60; } // up to 1 day from the future

Zeitcoin

Code:

static const int64 nMaxClockDrift = 2 * 60 * 60;        // two hours

Clients with a (wrong) system time +/-1 day are able to confirm blocks. That's an issue.
An attacker has a big window for timejacking or whatever.

Blackcoin (New rules)
Past limit: time of last block
Future limit: +15 seconds
Granularity: 16 seconds
Expected block time: 64 seconds

Related:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=604716.msg7140466#msg7140466

I think we should change it:

Code:

static const int64 nMaxClockDrift = 5 * 60;        // five minutes

It's not the final solution, but it feels better, eh?

....

[Furio]

I didn't know cryptsy has the Zeit wallets locked for weeks now. Any idea why that is?