[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[Chargin]

It is my understanding that the "we" that perhan007 refers to is him and scryptminer. I have not confirmed this with him.

Chargin.

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[kosmost]

o   the departure of Kosmost smacks of fraud,

I tire of asking for any logical explanation regarding these really stupid and ignorant comments, but....

do you care to offer any reasoning for this unfounded and untrue (and ignorant) statement?

[perhan007]

o   the departure of Kosmost smacks of fraud,

I tire of asking for any logical explanation regarding these really stupid and ignorant comments, but....

do you care to offer any reasoning for this unfounded and untrue (and ignorant) statement?

Who's askin? The one who claimed so much and never offered any proof? Neither regarding your pseudo-llc, nor your identity or any of the "products" you supposedly have been working on, "offers" you claim to have received or the "threats" from mysterious individuals? You have an obligation towards the community and not the other way around.

But anyway, it's not worth spending a single second discussing with you as you're the embarrassing symbol of the shameful past of our wonderful cryptocurrency.

Please sue me for my "untrue" statement. You know who I am and where I live.

And as already mentioned, we will stick to our promise and will do our best to help Karma and cooperate with trustworthy people on a project-driven case-by-case basis but we have come to the conclusion that we don't need the authorization or help of an individual we consider to be part of the current problems, not of possible solutions.

Many thanks for your attention.

Best regards

Perica

[altcoingood]

Kosmost, please break down how LILL.com was costing $500 a month.

[TheLittleDuke]

Let's look at the facts here.  Andre, Perica, and I (David) have been 110% transparent with everyone on who we are and what our interest in Karma is.  We have disclosed actual real physical places of business.  

The mysterious Kosmost trail seems to in theory start with a filing in Wyoming, USA -- an address in a office building in Walnut, California and ends at a 3F location in a high rise building in Hong Kong that is evidently under watch for financial impropriety.

As Perica pointed out, none of the other current "team" wants to disclose their true identities.  Pretty hard to build trust I agree.

Since Andre & Perica are currently two of the largest stakeholders in the coin, it's fully within their power to elect to go in any direction they want to.  I fully support them and hope to join them in some specific project related work.

In the mean time, my offer to move central services and wallet development into the non-profit Strength in Numbers Foundation is still on the table.  You're not going to get any greater transparency than you will find in an IRS-990 form (google it if you need to know what that is)

That's the minimum TRIAGE to set a new foundation.  The coin still needs a PURPOSE and a CONSUMER if you want it to have a strategic value and on-going UTILITY.

-David

[mashac]

And as already mentioned, we will stick to our promise and will do our best to help Karma and cooperate with trustworthy people on a project-driven case-by-case basis but we have come to the conclusion that we don't need the authorization or help of an individual we consider to be part of the current problems, not of possible solutions.

Many thanks for your attention.

Best regards

Perica

Thank you.

[mashac]

In the mean time, my offer to move central services and wallet development into the non-profit Strength in Numbers Foundation is still on the table.  You're not going to get any greater transparency than you will find in an IRS-990 form (google it if you need to know what that is)

That's the minimum TRIAGE to set a new foundation.  The coin still needs a PURPOSE and a CONSUMER if you want it to have a strategic value and on-going UTILITY.

-David

Can you do this without the permission of current devs? I think otherwise Karma is not going any where..

[TheLittleDuke]

In the mean time, my offer to move central services and wallet development into the non-profit Strength in Numbers Foundation is still on the table.  You're not going to get any greater transparency than you will find in an IRS-990 form (google it if you need to know what that is)

That's the minimum TRIAGE to set a new foundation.  The coin still needs a PURPOSE and a CONSUMER if you want it to have a strategic value and on-going UTILITY.

-David

Can you do this without the permission of current devs? I think otherwise Karma is not going any where..

In theory, other than the issue surrounding the legitimacy of the USPTO Trademark (actually it appears to be a Service Mark designation) -- I think it's possible.  See what we did with:

http://karmarewards.me

Over the weekend...

Look familiar?  (It should as long as one trusts the completeness of wget -m )

It's just a raw clone, no edits on underlying links yet...

It would be in the communities better interest of course if there was at least an explicit if not tacit secession of power/control/transfer by the current "team" -- if even that means a simple public declaration of support.

The critical components of the core services IMHO are the checkpointing servers.  Everything else can run fully de-coupled.  I would ask that Andre & Perica step up to share hosting/replication responsibilities with us.  

I would propose that we establish a VPN between Strength in Numbers infrastructure and theirs in order to build a stronger Web of Trust.

-dvd

[p4r4m0un7]

Let's look at the facts here.  Andre, Perica, and I (David) have been 110% transparent with everyone on who we are and what our interest in Karma is.  We have disclosed actual real physical places of business.  

The mysterious Kosmost trail seems to in theory start with a filing in Wyoming, USA -- an address in a office building in Walnut, California and ends at a 3F location in a high rise building in Hong Kong that is evidently under watch for financial impropriety.

As Perica pointed out, none of the other current "team" wants to disclose their true identities.  Pretty hard to build trust I agree.

Since Andre & Perica are currently two of the largest stakeholders in the coin, it's fully within their power to elect to go in any direction they want to.  I fully support them and hope to join them in some specific project related work.

In the mean time, my offer to move central services and wallet development into the non-profit Strength in Numbers Foundation is still on the table.  You're not going to get any greater transparency than you will find in an IRS-990 form (google it if you need to know what that is)

That's the minimum TRIAGE to set a new foundation.  The coin still needs a PURPOSE and a CONSUMER if you want it to have a strategic value and on-going UTILITY.

-David

Is it possible for kosmost to live in Hong Kong, but being citizen of USA? And because he wanted the llc to be trustworthy, he established it in USA where SEC is regulating? Do you think if it is possible for someone here to know his real name and exactly who he is? I am not sure about all that, just asking...

Who do you think will be the CONSUMER of Karma? What do you think the PURPOSE of Karma should be?

[altcoingood]

Is it possible for kosmost to live in Hong Kong, but being citizen of USA? And because he wanted the llc to be trustworthy, he established it in USA where SEC is regulating? Do you think if it is possible for someone here to know his real name and exactly who he is? I am not sure about all that, just asking...

Kosmost has a real name and it's known to some people (I forgot it) but I don't think anyone here is entitled to it because while he is a jerk he is not a criminal (atleast not where I live), and so no need for it really unless for intimidation or similar stuff which is not how karma-people should operate.

Kosmost: i'd still like to know about the $500/month cost for Lill.com

[Beachguy]

....Since Andre & Perica are currently two of the largest stakeholders in the coin, it's fully within their power to elect to go in any direction they want to.  I fully support them and hope to join them in some specific project related work.

In the mean time, my offer to move central services and wallet development into the non-profit Strength in Numbers Foundation is still on the table.  You're not going to get any greater transparency than you will find in an IRS-990 form (google it if you need to know what that is)

That's the minimum TRIAGE to set a new foundation.  The coin still needs a PURPOSE and a CONSUMER if you want it to have a strategic value and on-going UTILITY.

-David

David,
I agree with you about Andre and Perica and fully understand and support their efforts.
What I have trouble understanding is what you want out of this? Do you intend to buy into the currency and see a value increase, looking for "project related work" that can help pay for your own costs or is there something else to it?

Personally, since I don't intend to "dump and run"  what ever helps the coin  I'm pretty agreeable to.

[p4r4m0un7]

In the mean time, my offer to move central services and wallet development into the non-profit Strength in Numbers Foundation is still on the table.  You're not going to get any greater transparency than you will find in an IRS-990 form (google it if you need to know what that is)

That's the minimum TRIAGE to set a new foundation.  The coin still needs a PURPOSE and a CONSUMER if you want it to have a strategic value and on-going UTILITY.

-David

Can you do this without the permission of current devs? I think otherwise Karma is not going any where..

In theory, other than the issue surrounding the legitimacy of the USPTO Trademark (actually it appears to be a Service Mark designation) -- I think it's possible.  See what we did with:

http://karmarewards.me

Over the weekend...

Look familiar?  (It should as long as one trusts the completeness of wget -m )

It's just a raw clone, no edits on underlying links yet...

It would be in the communities better interest of course if there was at least an explicit if not tacit secession of power/control/transfer by the current "team" -- if even that means a simple public declaration of support.

The critical components of the core services IMHO are the checkpointing servers.  Everything else can run fully de-coupled.  I would ask that Andre & Perica step up to share hosting/replication responsibilities with us.  

I would propose that we establish a VPN between Strength in Numbers infrastructure and theirs in order to build a stronger Web of Trust.

-dvd

This is just another website. Not much of a service and I don`t see the value for Karma. But maybe I am wrong.
Tell me please, what kind of lessons have you learned from Give coin failure? And how do you intend to not make the same mistakes with Karma? Why do you think GC failed?
What do you think is the most important thing for Karma? Building community or something else? And please, this time don`t quote old marketing books. To some people you sound too naive.
Karma has its purpose and consumers. It lacks core services, good marketing (communication, not building value). It also lost its good side - being good and honest to each other (which includes not trying to hijack something). The most important thing is to build community, followers, believers, not CONSUMERS.
You know, leaders are born that way and can develop their leadership skills until they reach 25 years. After that it is impossible. Are you a leader? Do you have leadership skills? Can you make people follow you? Can you influence people?
And once again, what exactly is stopping you to create service for Karma?
I hope my questions are not too difficult to answer. From time to time I am asking such questions in order to build my opinion. And one more thing - being transparent as a person and/or organization doesn`t bring any value. Nobody cares if you are a person, organization, which is your country of residence, etc. All that matters is the results. Also, do not assume that someone who is declaring his holdings is the bigger Karma stakeholder.

P.S. By knowing kosmost (despite only virtually), I am sure no matter what (all of the insulting, trolling, etc), he will not give any service to anyone who is not having his heart lying with Karma. Keep this in mind.

[bitwho]

David.

Your intentions of the coin use and your intention to implement karm is still unclear. It might make sense to you but you are not being too clear for us to understand it. Could you please break it down in layman terms. Explain it to us like we are five kind of break down.



Either way. It seems that both you and perican and Andrés want to get involved to help karma. I still can't figure out what prevents you from just starting to help out.


Talking with Andres I can see he wants to help. I showed him a method that could help us grow in numbers and he is working on creating these service. Also proposed the all of you a system that will help us find more active users to join the team. The karma- hire system. It was just a concept but it seemed like we could all work together in harmony.

I don't understand the hostility that perica is throwing now. You will not be able to do a coin take over easy just because people don't feel the necessity to give out their identity or because you hold tons of coins. This community will want closure. You both and David just recently became active and you will not have their support as easy as you think.

You need to become more active by posting more and showing all intentions are for the best of karma and not yours personally. It's irralevant how many coins you own. If anything it actually should trigger a red flag because of how many you do own.

This is shocking to see as I mention before , talking to you guys one Skype it seems like it would have been good for all of us to work together. Then you made that hostile post by declaring you want to do a take over.

I think it best we all unite and work together rrather then being hostile and crating unnecessary drama.

We didn't push karm people to do what we wanted we tried to be as opened as possible and created services that the community choose to use. I suggest you all start becoming more active and share your thoughts and show people here what and how you intent to help. Just saying you will take over and improve the coins is not enough. I could be wrong but you will not get the majority of people supporting you and you will leave karma with two forks and much chaos


It hink all of you have good intentions for karma. I just find it confusing i what do you actually need to take over to start helping out. From what we talked nothing would prevent you to start helping out. The services have been offline for weeks now and yet karma behaving normaly. Hence what is stoping you to start helping out?

[TheLittleDuke]

....Since Andre & Perica are currently two of the largest stakeholders in the coin, it's fully within their power to elect to go in any direction they want to.  I fully support them and hope to join them in some specific project related work.

In the mean time, my offer to move central services and wallet development into the non-profit Strength in Numbers Foundation is still on the table.  You're not going to get any greater transparency than you will find in an IRS-990 form (google it if you need to know what that is)

That's the minimum TRIAGE to set a new foundation.  The coin still needs a PURPOSE and a CONSUMER if you want it to have a strategic value and on-going UTILITY.

-David

David,
I agree with you about Andre and Perica and fully understand and support their efforts.
What I have trouble understanding is what you want out of this? Do you intend to buy into the currency and see a value increase, looking for "project related work" that can help pay for your own costs or is there something else to it?

Personally, since I don't intend to "dump and run"  what ever helps the coin  I'm pretty agreeable to.

That's a fair question!

I intend to create a utility for Karma -- in the real world as well as in the virtual world.

Karma must be an actual platform and not just another "me-too crypto" -- there are hundreds of coinbases that offer no compelling reason to be involved other than a name and potentially some like minded people.

I personally could care less if I 'profit' from Karma's use -- and since I'm proposing putting it in a non-profit that basically negates that motive anyway.

What I am interested in building up a real community -- by bringing in NON-CRYPTO users of the coinbase -- to develop interest in its value as a means to getting access to a community for real-world transactions.

Andre & Perica have done the deepest dive on all my communication to date so they can weigh in on what they think of my ideas.

-dvd

[TheLittleDuke]

This is just another website. Not much of a service and I don`t see the value for Karma. But maybe I am wrong.

Uhm?  Duh?  Did I not say it was a simple clone?  It was meant to demonstrate what we can do even if we do not have the current teams help.

Tell me please, what kind of lessons have you learned from Give coin failure? And how do you intend to not make the same mistakes with Karma? Why do you think GC failed?

A very fair question indeed.  There are lots of reasons -- fundamentally GC imploded because of in-fighting within the original team -- some of the members did not have honorable intentions.

What do you think is the most important thing for Karma? Building community or something else? And please, this time don`t quote old marketing books. To some people you sound too naive.

I'm going to ignore the personal attacks.  I have over 20+ years of real world business experience and an MBA.  If I explain things simply it's in deference to the wide audience who shows up here.  Most of that "old marketing book" information is unknown by this crowd.  Hell the basic understanding of market-place theory seems to be lost on most the newbies.

Karma has its purpose and consumers. It lacks core services, good marketing (communication, not building value). It also lost its good side - being good and honest to each other (which includes not trying to hijack something). The most important thing is to build community, followers, believers, not CONSUMERS.

I wish I could agree with you here.  Karma suggests it has a purpose and a consumer but all I can see are miners and investors trying to pump-and-dump each other out. 

It must have a utility and purpose that is recognized and desired by a consumer.  You can not have a long-term sustainable "supply-side" economy.

You know, leaders are born that way and can develop their leadership skills until they reach 25 years. After that it is impossible. Are you a leader? Do you have leadership skills? Can you make people follow you? Can you influence people?

I can provide references to former employees of BackPack Software Inc -- you can also go and read what has been publicly said about me as endorsements by nearly a dozen people on LinkedIN.

And once again, what exactly is stopping you to create service for Karma?

The thing I wrestle with is how to avoid rewarding bad behavior.  Its why I'm not at all interested in buying what you're selling today because honestly I do not think it has any utility for me.  I don't feel compelled to show any kind of fidelity or any grand gestures to impress this current crowd.  The ideas and prior track record alone should suffice for my credentials.

I hope my questions are not too difficult to answer. From time to time I am asking such questions in order to build my opinion. And one more thing - being transparent as a person and/or organization doesn`t bring any value. Nobody cares if you are a person, organization, which is your country of residence, etc. All that matters is the results. Also, do not assume that someone who is declaring his holdings is the bigger Karma stakeholder.

P.S. By knowing kosmost (despite only virtually), I am sure no matter what (all of the insulting, trolling, etc), he will not give any service to anyone who is not having his heart lying with Karma. Keep this in mind.

I appreciate tough questions -- asked sincerely -- without the personal attacks.

While you may not care about named invididuals, organizational structures (though many of the fans here fawned over the bogus LLC) -- it matters very much to people like Andre and Perica and me.

The truth is there is really NOTHING preventing us from doing our own thing, creating a KARMA2 and letting the market decide.

You seem to think that what you have is precious and rare and unique. 

We do not all hold to that belief.

What do you DO have, IMHO, is a PASSIONATE and MOTIVATED set of stakeholders that are often blinded by their own self-interests.

I dream of a world where you have MILLIONS of payment addresses and not a concentration of something like 80% of all KARMA in just 100 addresses.

-dvd

[p4r4m0un7]

DVD, it was not the intention to personally attack you that drive me to ask any of the questions above. Sorry if it sounds like this. I`ve asked you about your leadership skills after I have read your linkedin profile. Frankly, linkedin profiles doesn`t mean anything to smart people, since they don`t know the people that gave you their recommendations. If you see mine profile, you will thing that I am HIM ^, but I am not.
It was not clear what are your intentions about Karma. That is all. In this moment I have the feeling that you just want to take over the good coin and the trademark. Basically to hijack Karma. And you are trying to do it in a polite way. Sorry, but it won`t happen. This is a behavior of someone, who is underestimating Karma community. Please, stop to assume that only 13-14 year bunch of teenagers are here. There are enough MBA`s, coders, marketers and artists here. Excitement and involvement is what we are missing.
Good luck with KARMA 2, since you have no clear and good intentions about our coin.

[p4r4m0un7]

Kos, we all know you have waited way too long to handover, but if my request (begging) matters to you, please don`t give anything to DVD.

[TheLittleDuke]

Please, stop to assume that only 13-14 year bunch of teenagers are here. There are enough MBA`s, coders, marketers and artists here. Excitement and involvement is what we are missing.

I'm not assuming a specific age range -- but emotional maturity displayed by some certainly suggests it??

If you REALLY had all that talent here we would not be having this conversation would we?

What you need is STRUCTURE and GUIDANCE and some STABILITY.

Kos, we all know you have waited way too long to handover, but if my request (begging) matters to you, please don`t give anything to DVD.

I'm not "asking for a gift" -- I'm offering compensation and a legitimate, fully transparent host for the project.

What Karma becomes is largely up to you!  

But lets decide it in a manner similar to BIP.

-dvd

FWIW: I registered karmatag.org back in 2009 / way before this coinbase even existed...

[p4r4m0un7]

Please, stop to assume that only 13-14 year bunch of teenagers are here. There are enough MBA`s, coders, marketers and artists here. Excitement and involvement is what we are missing.

I'm not assuming a specific age range -- but emotional maturity displayed by some certainly suggests it??

If you REALLY had all that talent here we would not be having this conversation would we?

What you need is STRUCTURE and GUIDANCE and some STABILITY.

Kos, we all know you have waited way too long to handover, but if my request (begging) matters to you, please don`t give anything to DVD.

I'm not "asking for a gift" -- I'm offering compensation and a legitimate, fully transparent host for the project.

What Karma becomes is largely up to you!  

But lets decide it in a manner similar to BIP.

-dvd

FWIW: I registered karmatag.org back in 2009 / way before this coinbase even existed...

NO. Thanks. My conversation with you is over. Good luck with your future attempts to telling whoever you want what he needs...
It is clear to me that you are devious person with bad intentions to our beautiful coin and trademark. I guess it is also clear to other members, but they are too polite to tell you this openly. Guess what. I have needed only 5-6 posts to find out what you are trying to do. And I didn`t need STRUCTURE and GUIDANCE. Keep them to yourself. Again, good luck with your future projects outside KARMA.

[TheLittleDuke]

NO. Thanks. My conversation with you is over. Good luck with your future attempts to telling whoever you want what he needs...
It is clear to me that you are devious person with bad intentions to our beautiful coin and trademark. I guess it is also clear to other members, but they are too polite to tell you this openly. Guess what. I have needed only 5-6 posts to find out what you are trying to do. And I didn`t need STRUCTURE and GUIDANCE. Keep them to yourself. Again, good luck with your future projects outside KARMA.

Fine by me -- but you're welcome to engage me anytime!

Based on the number of private conversations with other thoughtful members of the community who are appreciative of my transparency I'll just take your latest missive with a grain of salt.

Please -- enlighten all of us, me especially what my "bad intentions" are?

Because I've been very clear and consistent from the start.

Karma needs:

1. A purpose other than amusing miners and traders
2. A larger economy that includes people in the real world
3. A transparent home, ideally a non-profit subject to the rigors of disclosure with named individuals
4. Stability and continuity of core systems and a team dedicated to executing
5. Resources -- we have offered to do API development and fund bounties

Which part of that is DEVIOUS?

Because what it looks like to me is that you enjoy being addicted to the false promises of frauds and shills who pretend to be a fellow-sufferer in order to exploit your bias for earning an ROI on your time and investment.

What you should be terrified of if anything is someone like Andre and Perica getting sick and tired of your "all tent and no circus" arm-waving and dump their what?  5B Karma on the market?   What do you think would happen if suddenly your "institutional investors" like them decided to get out quick?  How long do you think your "beautiful coin" would survive the minute it gets kicked off the exchanges?

You think long and hard about that...and then decide who is the bigger threat to Karma...

-dvd