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Author Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11  (Read 562969 times)
kosmost
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September 10, 2014, 03:29:06 PM
 #6001

I think Kosmost has a lot of skills and is very valuable to the community.

I just did not like how he handled the closure of Karmashares... but I can understand that in some way it was in the better interest to the Karmashares investors that wanted to have time to dump their coins right after they saw the news.

If Kosmost said that he would close Karmashares a week before he started refunding the investors coins, maybe the investors that wanted to leave the boat would have to sell at a lower price.

I want Kosmost to stay... I'm just not sure we should want him to continue as the leader of the community.

Yes, and based on my conversation with an experienced trader I believed that Karma would be trading at even less than today if it was announced or voted upon beforehand.

Imagine you know that in 1 week's time 8.6 billion coins will be returned to investors and hitting the market. But those people can't sell yet, because they don't have their coins. So, you or others take advantage of this "hostage situation" and sell at the current price knowing that if you wanted to you could buy them back later for much cheaper.

It may be fine if you have all your coins but what if you were 1 of 200 people that couldn't sell if you wanted to (because you will have them in 7 days). How would you feel?

For the marketplace this would have a snowball effect, most likely. It won't matter to holders what the current price is because they can be close to 100% sure that in 1 week it will be lower than that. Probably much lower. So then they sell, which causes other people to sell. Many more people would have sold because of this (even those that wanted to keep the coins.) We may be even looking about 1-2 litoshis.

So then you'd have 1 week of dumping in anticipation of 8.6 billion coins potentially hitting exchanges at the same time. All this before a single coin was returned.

Followed by... 200 people who just got their 8.6 billion coins today and are upset at the unfairness of it all. and instead of 30 pages of "kill kosmost!!" you'd have 200 pages. Karma would have been killed on the exchanges.

My strategy was unorthodox, yes. But I believe it was the best way to do it. Not telling anyone, and just sending back coins. There would be several hours of confusion while people processed what was going on, or perhaps a couple of days before someone checked their wallet or the forum. Is kosmost stealing coins? Have we been hacked? etc, etc. The worst imaginations ideally should play out during this shock phase, followed by better news (not stealing, not hacked, all coins returned) which would stabilize the market a bit more over time.

Would you have preferred me shocking you or 7+ days of panic selling?

yes, the price decreased but not as much as it could have. If you ever wanted to buy Karma cheap before, now is the time.

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TheLittleDuke
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September 10, 2014, 03:31:59 PM
 #6002


I wasn't asking for anecdotes but for actual legal wording.

How ironic -- that is the same thing I asked of you :-)

If you REALLY want legal wording then YOU should hire a lawyer Tongue

I was excited to see a potential method for crowd-sourced equity versus looking into a Small Company Offering Registration (SCOR)

You have failed to produce ANY legal briefing or provide some shred of documentation that you've had a law firm review your offering.

At least I paid to have a lawyer render an opinion and I can sure as hell tell you that I trust his advice over anything I've read here.

-dvd

It has been reviewed. But as the community knows, we were hoping to afford more thorough legal counsel.

We also provided information on the actual law, not just a lawyer's preliminary opinion.

I did not give you anecdotes.

We are talking in circles.

Not really talking in circles at all -- I'm trying to slice through the spin and the arm waving...

All law is based on opinions and precedent.

I asked my law firm for an opinion -- they gave one and cited precedent -- the facts are against you at the moment -- that your "member managed llc" -- is so thin and it's obvious from the level of skill demonstrated here in the forum that your "members" are not sophisticated investors.  I'm certain that your market cap is too small for the SEC to get involved at the moment until enough of your fanbase turns on you and starts filing complaints with the feds.

I'm actually on your side -- I think if it what you were doing was actually sanctioned by the SEC that you'd have a great model for crowd-funding-equity -- but all I see is wishful thinking...

"HOPE IS NOT A STRATEGY"

It's Better 2GIVE
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bignev
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September 10, 2014, 03:36:47 PM
 #6003

I've already said I can bring 60 new people into this community. This would give the coin an enormous boost. I ask for the community to support this by donating 1M Karma to each of the new people.

I would support a twitter tipping campaign out of my own kick. This would bring in dozens more people.

Is there a working twitter tip bot?

I appreciate that being new on here people may be sceptical but this can happen straight away and I'm not asking you to send me the coins.

Is the Karma community interested in this? If not I won't ask again and I'll find another coin

Why 1 million coins not 100,000 or even 10,000? 10,000 of anything sounds like a lot to me.

I think 1 million is a fair amount with a 92B coin cap

Fair? To who? Why is it fair to give them any? They don't know the coin cap. That number is outdated by the way.

Look at this:
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/karm/#!rich

Assuming each address is a different person, over 10,000 people share less than 2 billion coins between them. That's 200,000 each. Realistically most those addresses probably have less than 20,000 Karma on them. Those people probably mined or purchased those coins.

I understand your concerns and your point is fair. However, 1M Karma are worth about $1.25 at the moment.

Do you think 60 new members who will be keen to help the coin are worth $75? I'm not being confrontational when I ask this. It's a genuine question.

I would lead the new members myself and organise them. They will promote the coin on twitter/fb etc. It's not just about that though. It's about bringing in a load of new people to Karma and crypto.
kosmost
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September 10, 2014, 03:46:25 PM
 #6004


Not really talking in circles at all -- I'm trying to slice through the spin and the arm waving...

All law is based on opinions and precedent.

I asked my law firm for an opinion -- they gave one and cited precedent -- the facts are against you at the moment -- that your "member managed llc" -- is so thin and it's obvious from the level of skill demonstrated here in the forum that your "members" are not sophisticated investors.  I'm certain that your market cap is too small for the SEC to get involved at the moment until enough of your fanbase turns on you and starts filing complaints with the feds.

I'm actually on your side -- I think if it what you were doing was actually sanctioned by the SEC that you'd have a great model for crowd-funding-equity -- but all I see is wishful thinking...

"HOPE IS NOT A STRATEGY"

Do you have links to actual legal wording on the subject, as I have already provided to you?

I don't really care to dance Smiley

Goodomy ["GOOD"] token here ∞ Rewards for customers of 700,000 retail stores in the US and millions more around the world
socoban
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September 10, 2014, 03:51:19 PM
 #6005

@ socoban - New Leader of KARMA! No kidding!

Quote
I nominate Socoban for build a new team to bring KARM back to life.
He has a clear view on whats going on since launch with KARM
Technical skills
He`s still here after all

Thanks guys, but I am not the right person for any leadership here. I am considered troll here, I have insulted at least 2 people in this thread. Many people do not like me and do not like how I act. Because I usually do not tell people what they want to hear. I would gladly help, but KARM does not need leader like me, it needs group of smart people, with good behavior who will help. I am willing to donate some KARM in case someone very skilled with long trusted history on this forum will join KARM dev team. I do not want to be part of core team, I am not heavily loaded with KARM, since I dumped after lill.com scam was revealed. But I will help for sure, in case I see people are willing to save this coin. I think we just need to keep KARM alive for next few months, than I expect big hype and everything will change. Lot of newcomers will come. So few small goals and some hard work can easily keep Karm alive.
Chargin
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September 10, 2014, 03:55:35 PM
 #6006

I've already said I can bring 60 new people into this community. This would give the coin an enormous boost. I ask for the community to support this by donating 1M Karma to each of the new people.

I would support a twitter tipping campaign out of my own kick. This would bring in dozens more people.

Is there a working twitter tip bot?

I appreciate that being new on here people may be sceptical but this can happen straight away and I'm not asking you to send me the coins.

Is the Karma community interested in this? If not I won't ask again and I'll find another coin

Why 1 million coins not 100,000 or even 10,000? 10,000 of anything sounds like a lot to me.

I think 1 million is a fair amount with a 92B coin cap

Fair? To who? Why is it fair to give them any? They don't know the coin cap. That number is outdated by the way.

Look at this:
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/karm/#!rich

Assuming each address is a different person, over 10,000 people share less than 2 billion coins between them. That's 200,000 each. Realistically most those addresses probably have less than 20,000 Karma on them. Those people probably mined or purchased those coins.

I understand your concerns and your point is fair. However, 1M Karma are worth about $1.25 at the moment.

Do you think 60 new members who will be keen to help the coin are worth $75? I'm not being confrontational when I ask this. It's a genuine question.

I would lead the new members myself and organise them. They will promote the coin on twitter/fb etc. It's not just about that though. It's about bringing in a load of new people to Karma and crypto.

I think they are worth much more than that. I don't think the amount you give them will make a difference though, you could give them a million or 10,000, it will work out the same.

You've already been told which tipping apps are available. Give them 6 million of your own Karma (I believe you have previously said you'd give away 10 million of your own Karma) and I'll send you 6 million Karma to do whatever you want with if I see them using it. They will appreciate it more if it is your Karma you gave them instead of a strangers.

Chargin.

Vote to get Karma listed on this exchange: https://hitbtc.com/vote (sign up to get a vote for 10 points, vote once every 24 hrs)
McHammer
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September 10, 2014, 03:59:50 PM
 #6007

Quote
Many more people would have sold because of this (even those that wanted to keep the coins.)
i wanted to hold but i had no choice lol
still lost 900% ?!
dont know
fuck u devs

altcoincasinogulagshoppingshow FUD is good, look @altcoin prices ...
pls fud me hard via pm
id appriciate that.
kosmost
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September 10, 2014, 04:14:28 PM
 #6008

Quote
Many more people would have sold because of this (even those that wanted to keep the coins.)
i wanted to hold but i had no choice lol
still lost 900% ?!
dont know
fuck u devs

You only lost because you sold. (Did the mafia come and hold a gun to your head?)

If you kept your coins you would.... still have the same number of coins.

Those who count their chickens before they hatch really need a more steady hand.

If you have not sold, you have not lost/gained anything until you sell and convert.

It's funny that you haven't cursed the Litecoin devs. You would have more $ then if LTC didn't decrease so much, right? (why don't people talks about this, then?)

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socoban
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September 10, 2014, 04:15:20 PM
 #6009

Quote
Many more people would have sold because of this (even those that wanted to keep the coins.)
i wanted to hold but i had no choice lol
still lost 900% ?!
dont know
fuck u devs

You only lost because you sold.

If you kept your coins you would.... still have the same number of coins.

Those who count their chickens before they hatch really need a more steady hand.

If you have not sold, you have not lost/gained anything until you sell and convert.

It's funny that you haven't cursed the Litecoin devs. You would have more $ then if LTC didn't decrease so much, right? (it's funny that no one talks about this)

This is 100% proof you are the biggest asshole I know
Maurizio
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September 10, 2014, 04:17:04 PM
 #6010

@ socoban - New Leader of KARMA! No kidding!

Quote
I nominate Socoban for build a new team to bring KARM back to life.
He has a clear view on whats going on since launch with KARM
Technical skills
He`s still here after all

Thanks guys, but I am not the right person for any leadership here. I am considered troll here, I have insulted at least 2 people in this thread. Many people do not like me and do not like how I act. Because I usually do not tell people what they want to hear. I would gladly help, but KARM does not need leader like me, it needs group of smart people, with good behavior who will help. I am willing to donate some KARM in case someone very skilled with long trusted history on this forum will join KARM dev team. I do not want to be part of core team, I am not heavily loaded with KARM, since I dumped after lill.com scam was revealed. But I will help for sure, in case I see people are willing to save this coin. I think we just need to keep KARM alive for next few months, than I expect big hype and everything will change. Lot of newcomers will come. So few small goals and some hard work can easily keep Karm alive.


Dear socoban I don`t nominate you for leader, I nominate you to build a team with trusted members
and find a way to work out a clear concept and more transparency in the team.

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bignev
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September 10, 2014, 04:26:59 PM
 #6011

Quote from: Chargin

I think they are worth much more than that. I don't think the amount you give them will make a difference though, you could give them a million or 10,000, it will work out the same.

You've already been told which tipping apps are available. Give them 6 million of your own Karma (I believe you have previously said you'd give away 10 million of your own Karma) and I'll send you 6 million Karma to do whatever you want with if I see them using it. They will appreciate it more if it is your Karma you gave them instead of a strangers.

Chargin.

My apologies, I didn't see that someone had confirmed there was a working twitter tip bot.

Thanks for taking the idea seriously and offering a significant amount of coins towards it.

Perhaps your idea of doing a giveaway myself first before receiving donations from members of the community is the better one. I'm just not sure yet if Karma will be that coin after all the drama of the last few days and the coin's current instability. There also has to be willing from a coin's community before I move forward. 10,000 Karma per new member is not going to cut it.

60 new active members would breathe life into almost any coin. This shouldn't be me trying to sell my idea to the Karma community (although I appreciate being a new member I have to sell myself to you all a bit). The Karma community should be keen to bring in new people - especially now.

I appreciate your replies and look forward to any other members adding their thoughts
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September 10, 2014, 04:29:50 PM
 #6012

How stupid I am with a head full of greed.
Never sold in the hypes cause of the: hold a minimum amount of 10mill or more to get
your cut from the LLC. An I am sure many mill and billions were
in the wallets cause ot that. Free road to dump for insiders at high prices.

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September 10, 2014, 04:30:03 PM
 #6013


Not really talking in circles at all -- I'm trying to slice through the spin and the arm waving...

All law is based on opinions and precedent.

I asked my law firm for an opinion -- they gave one and cited precedent -- the facts are against you at the moment -- that your "member managed llc" -- is so thin and it's obvious from the level of skill demonstrated here in the forum that your "members" are not sophisticated investors.  I'm certain that your market cap is too small for the SEC to get involved at the moment until enough of your fanbase turns on you and starts filing complaints with the feds.

I'm actually on your side -- I think if it what you were doing was actually sanctioned by the SEC that you'd have a great model for crowd-funding-equity -- but all I see is wishful thinking...

"HOPE IS NOT A STRATEGY"

Do you have links to actual legal wording on the subject, as I have already provided to you?

I don't really care to dance Smiley

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV ;-)

But what I do have 25+ years of building and running businesses in addition to an MBA Tongue

What I provided was the legal opinion of one that cited case law examples.

What YOU need is to pay your own lawyer to provide you with an opinion -- or better yet, get an exemption letter from the SEC and FINCEN.  That way if you get sued you have some basis for your assertion.

In addition to the whole unregistered security issue, the LLC doesn't really appear to be member-managed at all -- but rather manager-managed.

If a member wanted to come and inspect the books as well as the meeting minutes, where would one go?  By law you have to have paper copies available for inspection by the members during reasonable business hours and make available for nominal fee the ability to make copies of same or permit them to make copies by their own method.

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altcoingood
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September 10, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
 #6014

Quote
Many more people would have sold because of this (even those that wanted to keep the coins.)
i wanted to hold but i had no choice lol
still lost 900% ?!
dont know
fuck u devs

You only lost because you sold.

If you kept your coins you would.... still have the same number of coins.

Those who count their chickens before they hatch really need a more steady hand.

If you have not sold, you have not lost/gained anything until you sell and convert.

It's funny that you haven't cursed the Litecoin devs. You would have more $ then if LTC didn't decrease so much, right? (it's funny that no one talks about this)

This is 100% proof you are the biggest asshole I know
I'll quote this for emphasis.

I also had a post deleted by an admin, it was a picture of Patrick Bateman from American Psycho laughing and giving zero fucks because he lacks empathy... Make up your own mind about why I posted it, some moderator deemed it off-topic for this thread.

Anyway.... that is all.
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September 10, 2014, 04:55:18 PM
 #6015


Not really talking in circles at all -- I'm trying to slice through the spin and the arm waving...

All law is based on opinions and precedent.

I asked my law firm for an opinion -- they gave one and cited precedent -- the facts are against you at the moment -- that your "member managed llc" -- is so thin and it's obvious from the level of skill demonstrated here in the forum that your "members" are not sophisticated investors.  I'm certain that your market cap is too small for the SEC to get involved at the moment until enough of your fanbase turns on you and starts filing complaints with the feds.

I'm actually on your side -- I think if it what you were doing was actually sanctioned by the SEC that you'd have a great model for crowd-funding-equity -- but all I see is wishful thinking...

"HOPE IS NOT A STRATEGY"

Do you have links to actual legal wording on the subject, as I have already provided to you?

I don't really care to dance Smiley

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV ;-)

But what I do have 25+ years of building and running businesses in addition to an MBA Tongue

What I provided was the legal opinion of one that cited case law examples.

What YOU need is to pay your own lawyer to provide you with an opinion -- or better yet, get an exemption letter from the SEC and FINCEN.  That way if you get sued you have some basis for your assertion.

In addition to the whole unregistered security issue, the LLC doesn't really appear to be member-managed at all -- but rather manager-managed.

If a member wanted to come and inspect the books as well as the meeting minutes, where would one go?  By law you have to have paper copies available for inspection by the members during reasonable business hours and make available for nominal fee the ability to make copies of same or permit them to make copies by their own method.

The LLC doesn't pay (or provide benefits to) anyone to manage the LLC, so is therefore not manager-managed. If kosmost manages the LLC then it is still member-managed. From early on I have noted my intention not to take any special benefits for myself or anyone else to help with Karmashares, and none has been received.

The actual coding of the law is important, not just "opinions" and such. Law is based on code, not opinions. Law is codified so people like you and I (or lawyers and judges) can reference or interpret them. You only need the internet and a pair of eyes to read it.

Furthermore, the state in which the LLC operates is also important, as there are additional laws that can apply in matters where Federal law does not.

Regardless, I'd rather discuss the future of Karma and work on a proper transition and discuss such matters with legal counsel unless we can here uncover something more substantive.

Goodomy ["GOOD"] token here ∞ Rewards for customers of 700,000 retail stores in the US and millions more around the world
bondi
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September 10, 2014, 05:00:08 PM
 #6016

I've already said I can bring 60 new people into this community. This would give the coin an enormous boost. I ask for the community to support this by donating 1M Karma to each of the new people.

I would support a twitter tipping campaign out of my own kick. This would bring in dozens more people.

Is there a working twitter tip bot?

I appreciate that being new on here people may be sceptical but this can happen straight away and I'm not asking you to send me the coins.

Is the Karma community interested in this? If not I won't ask again and I'll find another coin

I can donate 1mill to this but I think it should be donated about 100.000 max to new people.
I know what you're saying about donating 1 mill to each new member but I think 100.000 may be enough and we can attract a lot more people.
Just a thought...
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September 10, 2014, 05:07:54 PM
 #6017

I can donate 1mill to this but I think it should be donated about 100.000 max to new people.
I know what you're saying about donating 1 mill to each new member but I think 100.000 may be enough and we can attract a lot more people.
Just a thought...

Recruiting 2 people who need Karma is worth more than 100 people in the crypto community, perhaps.

I doubt if Karma will grow much without the people who need it.

Goodomy ["GOOD"] token here ∞ Rewards for customers of 700,000 retail stores in the US and millions more around the world
bondi
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September 10, 2014, 05:16:06 PM
 #6018

I can donate 1mill to this but I think it should be donated about 100.000 max to new people.
I know what you're saying about donating 1 mill to each new member but I think 100.000 may be enough and we can attract a lot more people.
Just a thought...

Recruiting 2 people who need Karma is worth more than 100 people in the crypto community, perhaps.

I doubt if Karma will grow much without the people who need it.

We need people in crypto community to be able to introduce Karma to those who need it.
ptman
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September 10, 2014, 05:17:49 PM
 #6019

I can donate 1mill to this but I think it should be donated about 100.000 max to new people.
I know what you're saying about donating 1 mill to each new member but I think 100.000 may be enough and we can attract a lot more people.
Just a thought...

Recruiting 2 people who need Karma is worth more than 100 people in the crypto community, perhaps.

I doubt if Karma will grow much without the people who need it.

That is true.

Do you have ideas/plans that you want to share with us about how to recruit people that need the coin?

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bignev
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September 10, 2014, 05:18:40 PM
 #6020

I can donate 1mill to this but I think it should be donated about 100.000 max to new people.
I know what you're saying about donating 1 mill to each new member but I think 100.000 may be enough and we can attract a lot more people.
Just a thought...

Recruiting 2 people who need Karma is worth more than 100 people in the crypto community, perhaps.

I doubt if Karma will grow much without the people who need it.

I would argue that everyone who is currently relatively ignorant of crypto needs it - or at least needs to be introduced to it.

Also, just my opinion, but I think we should concentrate for a little while on what Karma needs.

Thanks for your response bondi. The idea is for the new members to then bring in a lot more members through their own giveaways. It will be hard work but given the right incentive I believe I can put together a solid, if unorthadox team.
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