[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[aminorex]

FWIW I endorse drawingthesun's view on fixed emission rates.  It fixes both the inflationary failure scenario and the inadequate fees failure scenario.  Therefore it eliminates a lot of the long-term viability threat.  It helps differentiate MRO from most other crypto, and in the long run it will facilitate the transition from the role of an extreme speculation vehicle to the role of a safe harbor.

[1713931988]

1713931988

[tacotime]

I think a decent comparison might be made with gold here. Comparing the total amount of gold in the world (estimate) to the amount produced per year may yield some interesting numbers.

I got into Bitcoin because I don't want a similar release to gold. (Or banks!)

I always thought that Satoshi should have kept the 50 bitcoin reward constant, yeah the first 10 years would have had huge inflation but it would allow more people to get on board during the early years. Then 50 years in bitcoin would have been having a moderate inflation but still enough to entice all peoples to invest in a growing currency. 100 years and you're on 1% and then after you get the super rare phase.

Ethereum is the only coin doing it right I think, it'll be a constant supply and people can mine the same amount of Ethereum in a thousand years, but of course it'll be 0.0001% of the supply by then, causing all the Ethereum to hold great value.

In the meantime Bitcoin will be earning it's security from transaction fees. Good luck with that.

Oh and gold? Well gold is 1% now, but there is a limited amount in the Earth. gold is likely to decrease it's percent too, until space mining is a thing.

MRO under a 1% scheme would be worse, as the supply will increase every year, causing MRO to lose value year after year forever.

I would prefer not to have a compounding 1% devaluation of everyones holdings for all time. :p

I really like the idea of lowest reward being 1 MRO per block. Remember that transaction fees would also add quite a bit by that time (As this assumes MRO is being widely used in 20 - 40 years and hasn't died!)

The MIP I'm proposing will fix reward when it hits 0.33333333 per block, which, at that time, will result in slightly less than 1% inflation for the first year if I recall correctly, then progressively decreasing inflation each subsequent year.

[aminorex]

Everything in this universe is a spring.

When all you've got is Hooke's law, everything looks like a spring

[Glizlack]

Any news on a more user friendly wallet?

[drawingthesun]

FWIW I endorse drawingthesun's view on fixed emission rates.  It fixes both the inflationary failure scenario and the inadequate fees failure scenario.  Therefore it eliminates a lot of the long-term viability threat.  It helps differentiate MRO from most other crypto, and in the long run it will facilitate the transition from the role of an extreme speculation vehicle to the role of a safe harbor.

This is a good point and the reason I brought up Ethereum. They are the only coin doing things right with regards to the emission rate. (In my opinion :p)

Of course the difference between fixed amount and fixed percentage might not be much in our lifetimes, but it does differentiate us from other crypto. Most crypto either have a rate of increase in percent or a fixed limited supply.

I'm not sure of any big name coins that will a fixed absolute amount per year. Ethereum will be a top 10 crypto that will offer it and I wouldn't mind MRO being the other major Crypto to offer it.

Have a think about 1 MRO release for 120 second blocks.

The first year after emission of the initial supply ends you're left with a inflation rate of 1.4%

I wrote a matlab script to calculate inflation rate at 1 MRO blocks per 120 seconds for 1000 years.

Note the calculation starts when all 18,000,000 have already been minted.

http://pastebin.com/sKyXZBzB

[zjz_lgd]

I use the GUI wallet, but the GUI wallet can mine well!
But it seems cannot send coins out?is anybody have this type of problems?
And all my coins are unconfirmd for a few days?Is it normal?

[Keyboard-Mash]

Any news on a more user friendly wallet?

You can follow Bitkoot's progress on a .NET GUI wrapper here (Windows only):
https://github.com/BitKoot/CryptoNoteWallet

You can follow jwinterm's progress on a kivy GUI wrapper here (Windows, and probably Linux as well):
https://github.com/jwinterm/cryptonoteRPCwalletGUI

You can follow Neozaru's progress on a cross-platform Qt GUI wallet here:
https://github.com/Neozaru/bitmonero-qt

We also have another person working on a different Qt GUI implementation, but it's not public yet.

[drawingthesun]

The MIP I'm proposing will fix reward when it hits 0.33333333 per block, which, at that time, will result in slightly less than 1% inflation for the first year if I recall correctly, then progressively decreasing inflation each subsequent year.

Not to bad.

Here is 1 - 1,000 years after the initial minting of 18,000,000:

(0.33333333*60*24*365)

http://pastebin.com/r8WbghuZ

[Keyboard-Mash]

FWIW I endorse drawingthesun's view on fixed emission rates.  It fixes both the inflationary failure scenario and the inadequate fees failure scenario.  Therefore it eliminates a lot of the long-term viability threat.  It helps differentiate MRO from most other crypto, and in the long run it will facilitate the transition from the role of an extreme speculation vehicle to the role of a safe harbor.

This is a good point and the reason I brought up Ethereum. They are the only coin doing things right with regards to the emission rate. (In my opinion :p)

Of course the difference between fixed amount and fixed percentage might not be much in our lifetimes, but it does differentiate us from other crypto. Most crypto either have a rate of increase in percent or a fixed limited supply.

I'm not sure of any big name coins that will a fixed absolute amount per year. Ethereum will be a top 10 crypto that will offer it and I wouldn't mind MRO being the other major Crypto to offer it.

Have a think about 1 MRO release for 120 second blocks.

The first year after emission of the initial supply ends you're left with a inflation rate of 1.4%

I wrote a matlab script to calculate inflation rate at 1 MRO blocks per 120 seconds for 1000 years.

Note the calculation starts when all 18,000,000 have already been minted.

http://pastebin.com/sKyXZBzB

Awesome simulation! You guys make great points. The fixed rate is technically a variable interest (edit: i meant inflation ..) as well, just going down all the time ... it took me a minute or ten to make the correlation which your simulation makes incredibly clear .

Having the fixed reward will set this apart in a great way, and does solve a whole lot of issues.

I like the direction we're headed in. Thanks for the discussion!

[tacotime]

http://mro.extremepool.org has decided to be brave and run the experimental daemon with the new block mining code on his pool.

Please point your miners there and let's see if the fix (which seemed OK on testnet) works OK on the mainnet! Hopefully it will result in greater profits for miners as well.

[tacotime]

Awesome simulation! You guys make great points. The fixed rate is technically a variable interest as well, just going down all the time ... it took me a minute or ten to make the correlation which your simulation makes incredibly clear .

Having the fixed reward will set this apart in a great way, and does solve a whole lot of issues.

I like the direction we're headed in. Thanks for the discussion!

Glad to see more support for this. I will formalize the MIP (MIP0003) ASAP.

[Glizlack]

Thanks for the links. I am intrigued by the idea of CPU mining this while also doing my x11 mining.

Steve

[drawingthesun]

All simulations start after the initial 18,000,000 have been minted (I know it's not exactly 18,000,000, but it makes little difference.)

(Matlab code included in case I screwed up the math or something)

1 MRO released every 120 seconds
http://pastebin.com/UWLVZaam

1 MRO released every 60 seconds
http://pastebin.com/dkVYBFj3

0.33333333 MRO released every 60 seconds.
http://pastebin.com/GwQJQzje

Inflation at 1%
http://pastebin.com/3K0dMnZe

Inflation at 0.5%
http://pastebin.com/6tJtdrqP

Also, for fun times, Inflation at 5%
http://pastebin.com/z5vmmW3z

[eizh]

All simulations start after the initial 18,000,000 have been minted (I know it's not exactly 18,000,000, but it makes little difference.)

(Matlab code included in case I screwed up the math or something)

1 MRO released every 120 seconds
http://pastebin.com/UWLVZaam

1 MRO released every 60 seconds
http://pastebin.com/dkVYBFj3

0.33333333 MRO released every 60 seconds.
http://pastebin.com/GwQJQzje

Inflation at 1%
http://pastebin.com/3K0dMnZe

Inflation at 0.5%
http://pastebin.com/6tJtdrqP

Also, for fun times, Inflation at 5%
http://pastebin.com/z5vmmW3z

While we're on the subject of MATLAB scripts simulating emission ... I wrote one a while ago that plots the block reward, circulation, inflation, and daily production with or without a minimum subsidy as a function of time. Call it with cni(years, ms) where years = number of years to simulate and ms = the minimum subsidy (e.g. 0.3). Here: http://pastebin.com/BVtd5Vmr

[tacotime]

Reminder for pool ops wanting to use the experimental version with fixed block reward/mempool algos, follow these instructions for linux:

Code:

git clone git://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero.git
cd bitmonero
git remote add upstream git://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero.git
git checkout --track origin/0.8.8update
mkdir build
make -j4

Pools are reporting this experimental code mines blocks OK

It is recommended that pools/miners upgrade to this daemon now or risk losing large amounts of block reward

http://monerochain.info/charts/reward
http://monerochain.info/

This pool is currently using the upgraded code: http://mro.extremepool.org/

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Guys, a fixed subsidy will not work. All you're doing is delaying the inevitable. This was already explained in the MRO economy thread as well as here. If MRO continues to grow after the fixed subsidy is reached, miners will again start relying on tx fees because the reward will not be worth the work, and then fees will begin to escalate. A fixed subsidy will only delay the problem. You must have a fixed percentage annual debasement. You guys know perfectly well that a 1% debasement will not hurt the value of your coins one bit. Be reasonable.

Money will only lose value if you inflate the circulating money supply. A 1% annual increase to the total supply won't do a damn thing, except solve all kinds of problems. You must have a fixed debasement or the network will eventually be unsustainable.

Gold debases at more than 2%/year and it will not slow down in anyone's lifetime. We will mine from space or make our own gold via super colliders long before Earth's gold supply is tapped. Interestingly, the value of gold keeps going up despite the constant supply inflation. Go figure.

[drawingthesun]

Guys, a fixed subsidy will not work. This was already explained in the MRO economy thread as well as here. If you want MRO to continue to grow after you reach the fixed subsidy, miners will again start relying on tx fees, and then you have fee escalation. A fixed subsidy will only delay the problem. You must have a fixed percentage annual debasement. 1% will not do shit to the value of your coins. Be reasonable.

Money will only lose value if you inflate the circulating money supply. A 1% annual increase to the total supply won't do a damn thing, except solve all kinds of problems. You must have a fixed debasement or the network will eventually be unsustainable.

Gold debases at more than 2%/year and it will not slow down in anyone's lifetime. We will mine from space or make our own gold via super colliders long before Earth's gold supply is tapped. Interestingly, the value of gold keeps going up...

Inflation at 1%
http://pastebin.com/3K0dMnZe

I'm just having a look at this.

1% actually isn't so bad, ten years after the initial emission of 18 million MRO, we end up with a release of about 200,000.

Year 50 after emission of 18 million MRO and we have a release of <300,000 MRO.

It would take 70 years to double the supply of coins.

Ok a little u turn from me, 1% really does look ok. It's not as bad as I thought it would be.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Cryptocurrencies face a number of future problems, including but not limited to:

- transaction witholding attacks
- centralized distribution via lending of promisory notes (back to fiat)
- transaction fee escalations
- network centralization of wealth

These issues can all be solved or greatly mitigated with a reasonable, fixed inflation. There are no other solutions that I know of that are nearly as elegant.

[drawingthesun]

Cryptocurrencies face a number of future problems, including but not limited to:

- transaction witholding attacks
- centralized distribution via lending of promisory notes (back to fiat)
- transaction fee escalations
- network centralization of wealth

These issues can all be solved or greatly mitigated with a reasonable, fixed inflation. There are no other solutions that I know of that are nearly as elegant.

How would you calculate the reward per block?

For 1% per year.

In a year we have 525,600 blocks. How do you make each block increase a slight amount to make 1% per year?

[dasomsos314]

Everything in this universe is a spring.

When all you've got is Hooke's law, everything looks like a spring

Spring is upon us, let us look forward to it!