AMT users thread.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

<snip>

AMT...  I don't recall saying that IMET handled mounting boards on heat sinks.

It explicitly says: "AMT was responsible for the mechanical designs, thermal designs (heatsinks), assembly, final test and QC. "

Also,  apparently AMT is trying its best to distort history by finally posting some news in the past:  https://advancedminers.com/category/amt-news/  that was not there previously

The post in question about heatsinks was in response to my question on testing done by IMET https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584891.msg7100933#msg7100933

Specifically the last sentence of 1st paragraph.

It in turn brought a response about testing for more than a few min. Anywho that usually means that sinks were used that could not handle extended running. Not uncommon for limited full power go/no-go test rigs - but - ONLY after longer testing proves that it is good enough and then they were removed. Sadly once again, no time was allowed for proveout. Was this the case? (test-only rig)

Given the nature of these beasties personally I would do only full power testing after the boards were attached to their real-use heatsinks... At least the big'uns on the back. For short ter-testing the chips would run topless so to speak. A lot less trouble/expense than mounting to test sinks & then removing them/cleaning up just for the real heatsinks to attached later on... However, that is not what IMET said, they only talked about heatsinks for testing and nothing beyond that.

Back to the show.

[FrictionlessCoin]

<snip>

AMT...  I don't recall saying that IMET handled mounting boards on heat sinks.

It explicitly says: "AMT was responsible for the mechanical designs, thermal designs (heatsinks), assembly, final test and QC. "

Also,  apparently AMT is trying its best to distort history by finally posting some news in the past:  https://advancedminers.com/category/amt-news/  that was not there previously

The post in question about heatsinks was in response to my question on testing done by IMET https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584891.msg7100933#msg7100933

Specifically the last sentence of 1st paragraph.

It in turn brought a response about testing for more than a few min. Anywho that usually means that sinks were used that could not handle extended running. Not uncommon for limited full power go/no-go test rigs - but - ONLY after longer testing proves that it is good enough and then they were removed. Sadly once again, no time was allowed for proveout. Was this the case? (test-only rig)

Given the nature of these beasties personally I would do only full power testing after the boards were attached to their real-use heatsinks... At least the big'uns on the back. For short ter-testing the chips would run topless so to speak. A lot less trouble/expense than mounting to test sinks & then removing them/cleaning up just for the real heatsinks to attached later on... However, that is not what IMET said, they only talked about heatsinks for testing and nothing beyond that.

Back to the show.

Like any engineering enterprise, you got to validate some initial prototypes work out the issues then go towards mass production.   The Bitmine and AMT boards were labeled revision 3, so there were at least 3 attempts to fix issues.  In fact, the latest Bitmine board doesn't look anything like the previous AMT rev. 3 board.  It has 10 chips instead of 8 chips. 

Now if a company takes the risk of going for a full production run without adequate testing,  that is a risk they take.  However, that's the gamble you make when you claim delivery earlier than everyone else.   The penalty for failure should fall on the company and not the customers.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Like any engineering enterprise, you got to validate some initial prototypes work out the issues then go towards mass production.   The Bitmine and AMT boards were labeled revision 3, so there were at least 3 attempts to fix issues.  In fact, the latest Bitmine board doesn't look anything like the previous AMT rev. 3 board.  It has 10 chips instead of 8 chips. 

Now if a company takes the risk of going for a full production run without adequate testing,  that is a risk they take.  However, that's the gamble you make when you claim delivery earlier than everyone else.   The penalty for failure should fall on the company and not the customers.

Ya nailed that one.
Unfortunately with an angry mob outside the gates complete with pitchforks and torches screaming "WE DEMAND OUR MINERS!" Bitmine et-al decided to punt & fumbled placement. Several times. Them pulling a BFL and saying hold on, we are still testing, would have brought the same response from here that they got anyway.

Wonder if the 10-chips is to underclock them yet still meet hash speeds?...

[opieum2]

Like any engineering enterprise, you got to validate some initial prototypes work out the issues then go towards mass production.   The Bitmine and AMT boards were labeled revision 3, so there were at least 3 attempts to fix issues.  In fact, the latest Bitmine board doesn't look anything like the previous AMT rev. 3 board.  It has 10 chips instead of 8 chips. 

Now if a company takes the risk of going for a full production run without adequate testing,  that is a risk they take.  However, that's the gamble you make when you claim delivery earlier than everyone else.   The penalty for failure should fall on the company and not the customers.

Ya nailed that one.
Unfortunately with an angry mob outside the gates complete with pitchforks and torches screaming "WE DEMAND OUR MINERS!" Bitmine et-al decided to punt & fumbled placement. Several times. Them pulling a BFL and saying hold on, we are still testing, would have brought the same response from here that they got anyway.

Wonder if the 10-chips is to underclock them yet still meet hash speeds?...

That would make logical sense actually. The math adds up with the 10 chip setup.

[FrictionlessCoin]

Like any engineering enterprise, you got to validate some initial prototypes work out the issues then go towards mass production.   The Bitmine and AMT boards were labeled revision 3, so there were at least 3 attempts to fix issues.  In fact, the latest Bitmine board doesn't look anything like the previous AMT rev. 3 board.  It has 10 chips instead of 8 chips.  

Now if a company takes the risk of going for a full production run without adequate testing,  that is a risk they take.  However, that's the gamble you make when you claim delivery earlier than everyone else.   The penalty for failure should fall on the company and not the customers.

Ya nailed that one.
Unfortunately with an angry mob outside the gates complete with pitchforks and torches screaming "WE DEMAND OUR MINERS!" Bitmine et-al decided to punt & fumbled placement. Several times. Them pulling a BFL and saying hold on, we are still testing, would have brought the same response from here that they got anyway.

Wonder if the 10-chips is to underclock them yet still meet hash speeds?...

That would make logical sense actually. The math adds up with the 10 chip setup.

Well the 10 chip setup allowed them to create this setup:  http://bitmine.ch/coincraft-rig-updates-now-production/

at 2.4 TH/s with 10 boards.

Notice the larger heat sinks on the top of the boards.

What the Chinese have done since they apparently are more experienced in this was perform enough iterations implementing their board to get a more reliable version prior to shipment.  The Dragon folks knew that AMT was screwing up big time.    The Technobit folks also did a fine job with their unit, unfortunately logistically the Bulgarian folks weren't situation to receive a lot of chips.  

I also want to note that based on Technobit pricing, you can tell that they are receiving A1 chips at under $40 per chip.   Much less than the ridiculous (and likely stale) prices quotes by Bitmine and AMT.  

Honestly, the game is pretty much over for these folks,  too many failed implementations.  There's no reason why customers should favor them over the other solutions out there.   They could survive in a world were Avalon was the only other company operating,  but not in a world were you have Bitmain, Cointerra, Spondoolies...  

That is why this entire business of AMT switching to Technobit and salvaging parts from AMT boards is down right a pathetic solution for customers.  Heck, if I wanted that I could have sent my boards to Technobit and they would have already delivered by now.

Bitcoin mining manufacturing requires near perfect execution considering that the hardware depreciation rate is ridiculously high.  You miss one month and you and your customers are practically doomed.

[opieum2]

Like any engineering enterprise, you got to validate some initial prototypes work out the issues then go towards mass production.   The Bitmine and AMT boards were labeled revision 3, so there were at least 3 attempts to fix issues.  In fact, the latest Bitmine board doesn't look anything like the previous AMT rev. 3 board.  It has 10 chips instead of 8 chips.  

Now if a company takes the risk of going for a full production run without adequate testing,  that is a risk they take.  However, that's the gamble you make when you claim delivery earlier than everyone else.   The penalty for failure should fall on the company and not the customers.

Ya nailed that one.
Unfortunately with an angry mob outside the gates complete with pitchforks and torches screaming "WE DEMAND OUR MINERS!" Bitmine et-al decided to punt & fumbled placement. Several times. Them pulling a BFL and saying hold on, we are still testing, would have brought the same response from here that they got anyway.

Wonder if the 10-chips is to underclock them yet still meet hash speeds?...

That would make logical sense actually. The math adds up with the 10 chip setup.

Well the 10 chip setup allowed them to create this setup:  http://bitmine.ch/coincraft-rig-updates-now-production/

at 2.4 TH/s with 10 boards.

Notice the larger heat sinks on the top of the boards.

What the Chinese have done since they apparently are more experienced in this was perform enough iterations implementing their board to get a more reliable version prior to shipment.  The Dragon folks knew that AMT was screwing up big time.    The Technobit folks also did a fine job with their unit, unfortunately logistically the Bulgarian folks weren't situation to receive a lot of chips.  

I also want to note that based on Technobit pricing, you can tell that they are receiving A1 chips at under $40 per chip.   Much less than the ridiculous (and likely stale) prices quotes by Bitmine and AMT.  

Honestly, the game is pretty much over for these folks,  too many failed implementations.  There's no reason why customers should favor them over the other solutions out there.   They could survive in a world were Avalon was the only other company operating,  but not in a world were you have Bitmain, Cointerra, Spondoolies...  

That is why this entire business of AMT switching to Technobit and salvaging parts from AMT boards is down right a pathetic solution for customers.  Heck, if I wanted that I could have sent my boards to Technobit and they would have already delivered by now.

Bitcoin mining manufacturing requires near perfect execution considering that the hardware depreciation rate is ridiculously high.  You miss one month and you and your customers are practically doomed.

It unfortunatly is the better solution for us considering the circumstances. Their previous track record with technobit seems to have been good. People talk about it being good. And they have the experience with it. So its worth it in terms of avoiding more burned out hardware. I am not sure why you have such a problem against them going technobit? Do you want the broken bitmine/AMT design? I know I dont. And I wont have to pay extra to have those boards...what you are asking is for htem to send you chips...then you pay more to have technobit assemble them into a miner? How does that make sense. It moves you further into the red....even longer ROI....

[FrictionlessCoin]

Like any engineering enterprise, you got to validate some initial prototypes work out the issues then go towards mass production.   The Bitmine and AMT boards were labeled revision 3, so there were at least 3 attempts to fix issues.  In fact, the latest Bitmine board doesn't look anything like the previous AMT rev. 3 board.  It has 10 chips instead of 8 chips.  

Now if a company takes the risk of going for a full production run without adequate testing,  that is a risk they take.  However, that's the gamble you make when you claim delivery earlier than everyone else.   The penalty for failure should fall on the company and not the customers.

Ya nailed that one.
Unfortunately with an angry mob outside the gates complete with pitchforks and torches screaming "WE DEMAND OUR MINERS!" Bitmine et-al decided to punt & fumbled placement. Several times. Them pulling a BFL and saying hold on, we are still testing, would have brought the same response from here that they got anyway.

Wonder if the 10-chips is to underclock them yet still meet hash speeds?...

That would make logical sense actually. The math adds up with the 10 chip setup.

Well the 10 chip setup allowed them to create this setup:  http://bitmine.ch/coincraft-rig-updates-now-production/

at 2.4 TH/s with 10 boards.

Notice the larger heat sinks on the top of the boards.

What the Chinese have done since they apparently are more experienced in this was perform enough iterations implementing their board to get a more reliable version prior to shipment.  The Dragon folks knew that AMT was screwing up big time.    The Technobit folks also did a fine job with their unit, unfortunately logistically the Bulgarian folks weren't situation to receive a lot of chips.  

I also want to note that based on Technobit pricing, you can tell that they are receiving A1 chips at under $40 per chip.   Much less than the ridiculous (and likely stale) prices quotes by Bitmine and AMT.  

Honestly, the game is pretty much over for these folks,  too many failed implementations.  There's no reason why customers should favor them over the other solutions out there.   They could survive in a world were Avalon was the only other company operating,  but not in a world were you have Bitmain, Cointerra, Spondoolies...  

That is why this entire business of AMT switching to Technobit and salvaging parts from AMT boards is down right a pathetic solution for customers.  Heck, if I wanted that I could have sent my boards to Technobit and they would have already delivered by now.

Bitcoin mining manufacturing requires near perfect execution considering that the hardware depreciation rate is ridiculously high.  You miss one month and you and your customers are practically doomed.

It unfortunatly is the better solution for us considering the circumstances. Their previous track record with technobit seems to have been good. People talk about it being good. And they have the experience with it. So its worth it in terms of avoiding more burned out hardware. I am not sure why you have such a problem against them going technobit? Do you want the broken bitmine/AMT design? I know I dont. And I wont have to pay extra to have those boards...what you are asking is for htem to send you chips...then you pay more to have technobit assemble them into a miner? How does that make sense. It moves you further into the red....even longer ROI....

Do you know why I asked for chips?  Because at that time, I didn't think that it would take 2 weeks for AMT to deliver the boards.   Well they have not delivered.   In the Bitcoin world time is *very* important.

It is better to have something than absolutely nothing.  So far, AMT has not shipped a single Technobit board.  It has been a month since they signed the contract.  Where are the boards?

[FrictionlessCoin]

How much of the $825,000 does AMT have left?  Why did you not use this money to refund customers who requested a refund?  You know you were massively delayed by flawed manufacturing,  why did you not refund customers?  Why are you holding customers money hostage to make sure you can finally get your manufacturing corrected?

The only real logical conclusion is they under capitalized the business and as such probably used the lions share of any pre-order money on start up and daily operating costs.  Using any "left over" money for refunds likely would have killed the business altogether (read: left them cashless with massive liabilities and no way to pay them..) and left them no new way to generate "profit" which they need to have in order to start making restitution. 

This is the problem companies run into when they spend the "profit" before they have made any...  Now the only option they have is to try and stay in business to make "new" profits to pay back the old profit they spent but didn't actually fucking earn.  They're behind the 8 ball in a big way now and are scrambling and grasping at straws.  They are bleeding cash like a stuck pig at this point, no new revenue is coming in and liabilities are piling up  by the day.  It's hard to see how anything less than an infusion of NEW and ACTUAL capital will right the SS Minnow at this point.

I really don't know any of the technical product stuff but from a strictly business POV it is hard to see how a company like AMT can turn this around.  Honest to goodness companies with real business skills (which AMT doesn't appear to have) fail EVERYDAY.  AMT has shown at every opportunity that they are completely incompetent and I believe there is approximately a 0% chance they have the skill and mind set to turn this around.

All they are doing is delaying the inevitable and making things worse for themselves.  The writing is on the wall and one way or another sooner or later the AMT ship is sunk.  If they were smart business men the only thing they would be doing is figuring out where they can get cash (read: selling personal assets) to pay back their initial investomers.  Until this is done, using a single nickel on the "new" business model is tantamount to fraud.  If they somehow managed to pay back everyone then and only then would it be time for them to invest more of their own fucking money to produce a stock product to sell in the future.  That way they are the ones taking the risk and the company can pay them back when and if it ever can and not the fucking customers...

Agree entirely with your comments.

Around $825,000 was raised... likely in BTC when BTC was trading at over $800.  So roughly 1,000 BTC.  I speculate that AMT kept that money in Bitcoin.   That 1,000 BTC fortunately is now worth $660,000.  If  I recall correctly, 260K was spent on manufacturing.  So that leaves around $400,000 left.   Where is that $400,000?   There are supposed 150 miners sold so that means $2666 per miner should be available for refunds.

I would expect that the class action lawyers to shut down this company after the June 10th deadline.  Acquire all remaining assets (particularly those still in BTC) and distribute the proceeds to all customers.

This notion of delivering Technobit boards from asic chips salvaged from dead AMT boards isn't going to leave customers whole.   What the heck are they thinking?   

Also it appears that AMT also owes IMET money based on a bouncing check.  Is this not breach of contract here?

Finally,  did AMT ever send an email to all of its customers explaining delays?  No.  Not once did AMT email customers informing them of a delay of their shipment.   It is already 3 months since the expected delivery date, yet AMT is keeping all its customers in the dark.   

Yea stop speculating Carlos, your not even close. 

DO NOT BELIEVE THIS SCAM COMPANY THEY HAVE OBVIOUSLY EATEN ALL THE MONEY AND HAVE NO IDEA ON HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS DON'T BELIEVE A WORD FROM AMT!!

I agree, they don't know how to run a viable business.

Regarding a scam, we'll let the courts decide that.  I'm sure there are plenty of witnesses who have been defrauded.

I agree that I am speculating,  however that fact that you say that it is 'not even close' and based on your track record... I will assume that what you say is indeed false and it is indeed very close to the truth.

So when will you provide to the court your response?

Also, I have yet to hear from you if Robert Parker and Alyssa Trusten are real people.  Can you provide evidence to their existence?

[FrictionlessCoin]

I got a proposal,  since AMT apparently acquired the Technobit designs illegally using our (customers) money,  can said assets be distributed to customers.

In other words, can the customers gain ownership of Technobit's design?

Also,  can customers acquire IMET parts that have not been paid for by AMT?

I gather if the AMT defaulted on payment for parts produced by IMET, then IMET is within their right to sell off the parts.

[FrictionlessCoin]

I'm actually very surprised they didn't move to freeze their assets. Or maybe they tried to initially and someone showed leniency, maybe this will have to be answered for by the 10th.

Actually not even sure where that date came from. Its the 16th. You should be able to call chimcles and confirm. They told me generally middle of the month. The 16th seems more in line with that. Someone else might want to call and confirm that though.

Well, AMT have better be sure that all this Technobit manufacturing is being done on their own dime.  If it is discovered that AMT was using customer funds,  then they will be really be in big trouble

[FrictionlessCoin]

My replies in green...this color if colored blind

My replies to your replies in navy blue....

My replies in RED.

AMT is still calling the shots, if they are going to be able to continue to do so is to be seen. Basically, what they are saying is "If our brand new business idea does great, you "might" get something back at some point in the future or at least the bare minimum." So, basically we are supposed to calm down in this forum, because that small chance of getting something if their potential "new company" does well would be jeopardized any favors from AMT. Basically, our original investment is being put in a new startup and if the company does well, they might be nice guys and continue to throw us bones so we keep calm along the way.  So, for me to have each part of their new business shutdown or slowed down (believe it or not, I can do it) It would not make sense because if I did that I would have no potential benefits from the new company. In the same manner, me having them locked up would also not pay, since they would not longer trickle back our original investment over x amount of time.  We basically will need to beg as their new company gains steam (if it happens), so we can continue to chase our ROI over time. Maybe at some point we would become only 50% angry, and then 30% angry down to 0% angry over time.  I will chill out with my posting for a while, its not going to change the outcome as far as our payback is concerned.

I don't think AMT should be investing any more of the customer proceeds on speculative investments like creating technobit boards or creating scrypt miners.   They have shown little technical capability in executing effectively.  Furthermore, their ability to provide good customer relations is clearly pathetic.

The current assets are being spent on business that has no future.  That is the current reality.

To be fair hardware is not a speculative investment. Its nice to throw buzzwords around, but realize what you are saying. They had modest success with their previous technobit implementation....when they moved to the bitmine designs is when the mess really started.
It is highly speculative in that the extremly high rate of depreciation of this hardware.   You manufacture bitcoin hardware in one month the price of this hardware is cut in half.    Go to CEX.IO and see how wild the fluctuation of GHs per BTC.    This is not like manufacturing PC boards..

Actually PC hardware also has a depreciative value...I get your premise being on the ROI but its the wrong argument here...on PC hardware deprciation occurs at a much slower rate I give you that.....The massive difference is its not speculative, its expected unless you are looking at specific applications with a profit motive (servers not desktops)......when we bought this hardware we bought the risk of speculation that came with it in terms of bitcoin value up/down. CEX.io is a cloud provider...they dont furnish hardware...your argument is invalid on that point alone. This is an apples to footballs comparison here

what I refer to as being speculative is the business of creating miners and selling it at a profit.   At the current high depreciation rate, there is absolutely no assurance that if I build a miner today that I can sell it at a profit in 1 month from now.

The customer relations aspect I have to agree though does need alot of work. I have been at least advising there to try to make sure the right things are said (not lies just diplomacy) I think I have more than demonstrated I am capable of that in written form at least.

But AMT is at least trying to keep things going. Other guys are folding hard. Alot of people seem hellbent on wanting them to fail now that they are trying to pick themselves up. It actually is worse off for us if they fold...sure we get hardware but likley the bare minimum to satisfy the court....and then they fold. It's already been established that they are not accepting new sales...which means no new money. Which means they just wont have the resources to compensate us even if that compensation is deferred (which financially and logistically is more realistic than expecting an immediate drop of FULL compensation....partial to start with would be realistic) this is my take on it and how it makes sense to do it if no money comes in because business was shut down. Of course AMT has their business and its theirs to manage as they will....courts will take their financial situation into account as the court will have them checked out for their finances if that is a disputable item in the case.
AMT cash is customers money that they have not refunded for lack of delivery.   They have no right to spend this money on additional speculation.

I only agree on this only to the point that the money needs to be spent in priority to make sure we are made right again..I do not agree however on the speculation piece...speculation is managed risk for everyone involved. They are investing (again our dollars which I do not agree with fully) into what makes business sense to generate more money.....this is necessary for any business to survive.They are in obvious survival mode.

investing our dollars for the slim likelihood that they can come out with a profit.  they gambled $75,000 to license Technobit design.   Has anyone yet to receive a technobit board from them?   if they buy innosilicon parts today,  how much will those innosilicon parts cost 1 month from now when they finish assembly?

The situation is so bad that we have photos of them using a hot air soldering iron to remove not only A1 chips but the other various components too!  Do I want a technobit board with components that was pulled out from a defective board in a unprofessionl manner?  Heck,  IMET even said that this was a NO-NO!



Honestly if they have a well thought out plan for compensating us (technobit boards with reliable designs and whatever else they do in that regard) a support/RMA to address any inevitable issues (because its tech and there are always issues of some kind)....also IF the new product is good (I believe it will be), then there is a shot at new sales for them (no pre-orders), we give feedback on the new product help them generate new sales which ultimately benefits those of us waiting for a deferred comp.
Customers need to see a break down of the cost to (1)License the new design (2) buy new parts (3) manufacture new boards (4) provide customer support (5) package and shp (6) handle returns.   As compared to (1) refunding the money straight up.

Let us be real here.  The competition are selling 1.2 TH/s systems at under $2,000.   Has AMT made a statement that they sill ship customers 3.6 TH/s for the $6,000 we paid?


Lets be even realer here....No statement has been made at all, secondly we purchased our hardware from AMT at the then market price....that said, the MPP is in force here and AMT has to honor that.....again those are details they need to work out to avoid further litigation...they clearly know this. I am actively working with them to make sure we all walk away from this in a good spot. The goal here is to allow for a win-win for everyone which is possible....also in regards to the numbered list items, they really don't have to show us that...no business ever does for competitive reasons. Go ask any company to show you that breakdown and they will laugh you out the door. Its a competitive advantage as some companies get discounts or other things that allow them to compete better. Because we are "investomers" sure we COULD and SHOULD have a say...but there is nothing right now on the books legally that allows for that.So again this cannot work...it might in an ideal world, but in a practical sense noone ever does because its part of a business process and there are contracts and other legal (NDA's) that forbid disclosure of that kind of info...the ONLY item valid is refunding money straight up. That is really the only option that has merit and is one that should have been considered but its irrelevant at the moment because its not happening

Again if I were in this situation, this is personally how I think a fair and appropriate comp plan would be. People get what they initially paid for and then gradually as sales start to uptick again, compensate back in an appropriate manner that covers things according to what the MPP stated. Its not a perfect solution that everyone will like...BUT it will at least satisfy legal requirements and most people (there are some who will just be obstinate regardless of what they get).

That being said I am making sure this is understood by AMT as well. While the above business idea is MY OPINION and how I would handle it based on business experience (and thinking if I ever got into that situation how would I do it?)....I am making sure it is about us getting rightly made whole, while allowing their business to legitimately thrive. There are some possibilities there.
I do not think AMT understands that shipping a 1.2 TH/s to customer is sufficient at this time. 
Re-read what I wrote....the goal is to get everyone INITIALLY 1.2Ths miner with a deferred comp shortly after once they have capital to do so....again they want to stay in business BUT there has to be a logical business plan to satisfy both the court (and us) and insure their existence as a business (yes many think they should go away but if they are looking to be a real player then they have a right to make that happen if they do things correctly regardless of peoples opinions of them)
I have heard no statement about a deferred comp.


With trust broken here and all sorts of other things going on, its a massive uphill battle AMT is fighting now. The onus is on them to make sure they start getting back on the hore horse and riding it to victory. I think they can do it they do have some good ideas that could turn things around on alot of levels...sadly there are those who are hellbent on seeing them fail no matter what. Not just AMT but a number of other companies out there.
I and many other customers are not willing to take that speculative gamble that AMT will pull through.
Then no one gets anything...consider the long term of this....if they go out of business, we get nothing...if we force them into doing it now we run the risk again of getting bad hardware and them going bankrupt and us not getting any support....again my motivation for helping them (for free) is to make sure they get shit done right because in doing so it benefits us all. Alot of it right now is advice in going in the best direction, the priority is and has been making sure everyone is whole again. AMT knows this. SO it benefits us all to make sure they stay in business long enough for that to happen. Short term emotional thinking will get us little or nothing in the end. 


your asumption here that if they go out of business that we get nothing.  you are assuming that AMT has the right to declare bankruptcy.   you are assuming that we are even getting support now when they are supposed to be operating.     AMT staying is business means that they are spending money... money that comes from customers
EDIT typos happen when I hit send to quick lol.

[FrictionlessCoin]

So based on timelines,  AMT purchases a license ($75K) from Technobit on around the week of April 21st.

Previous to that,  AMT sends a bounced check to IMET on April 18th.

HI,all,

Actually AMT purchase a  non-exclusive licence from us about 2 weeks ago.
They did business with us in the past, so having troubles with their current design/manufacturing process , they decided to get an alternate design.
In any case all their boards will be produced in USA as  far as I know.
We will not be involved in the production and assembly except with know-how help if needed from distance.


Best Martin

[Puppet]

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

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Sirminesalot - Does not mine a lot.

Nor do any of your customers.

[FrictionlessCoin]

AMT_MINERS - Well put.
Doubt many will get the message you tried to put across though.

It is clear that AMT wants to survive.

Unfortunately, a majority of the customers don't give a damn if they survive or not.   We only want an ROI, plain and simple.   If AMT does not understand the needs of the customer, the they certainly deserve to go out of business.

Remember, fulfill your customers need first rather than you ambitions on trying to build a mining manufacturing company.

Heck,  a lot of folks in this thread could go out tomorrow and build a much better company that what AMT has currently built.   We know we aren't going to do so because we know that there isn't any money in it.   Look,  Cointerra is selling like 2 peta hash worth of chips for $100k, you think you can honestly compete with that using Innosilicon chips?

[FrictionlessCoin]

 Your terms said you wanted to go through arbitration prior to lawsuit. I attempted that route only to receive no word from you.

Now I have to wait to find out how everything plays out before I can get on with my life. Same as you. We're both up shit creek and we're sharing the same canoe.

Then I have to see if there is a judgment in our favor if it's something I want to accept or if I think I can work with you to come to a better resolution. I'm part of the law suit not because I want to be but because the nature of the suite, and it suck balls because it all could have been avoided

Same here... I went through arbitration and have got nothing to show for it but junk incomplete parts.

Do you know what the arbitrators recommended?  Give a call the the District Attorney and file a criminal complaint.

Well, I haven't bothered yet to do that because all I really care about is getting some money back from this entire debacle.   I'm certain the federal authorities will take this case up regardless of the civil complaint.

I agree entirely with rik_khaos comments, you painted yourself in this corner with the complete lack of communication and the broken promises.   The customer had no alternative but take legal proceedings against you.

One final thought.... AMT NEVER DELIVERED A 1.2 TH/S MINER TO ANYONE.  This is collaborated by the manufacturer IMET who says that AMT wanted to ship a 6 board system but never delivered on that.    No 6 board system was ever shipped.  No 6 board backplane was ever created.   All manufacturing was stopped of 4/18/2014 when AMT sent a bounced check to their manufacturer.

Let's be perfectly clear, there is no reputation left to salvage here. AMT, be civil and refund your customers money.  The least you can do is provide a partial refund and a full refund at a later date.

Stop gambling your customers money on endeavors to resuscitate your business.


As a matter of fact,  a lot of us are upset that you spent $75,000 to license technobit.  That $75,000 of our money you spent that you have no right in doing so.  That $75,000 could have made at least 12 customers whole!

[FrictionlessCoin]

Why delete my post and leave his?

Because he is a client that tries to help resolve the issue and further the business if possible, he understands the situation and while taking an unbiased standpoint even he looks at the facts.

The problem is that most of your clients are not privy to the facts so sadly we can not judge the situation on them. Instead if anyone posts an opinion contrary to your personal bias they comment is deleted, or at least the perception for my point of view. Perhaps that is not how you mean to come across.

I'd love to help you, had even offered via e-mail to help on the customer service end as I was a retail manager for two years, in which I helped turn around a failing store. There was no response.

All I want if for this all to be over and if I had a magic wand to fix all the issues I'd lend it to you.

They even deleted a post of me saying we should not be biased or bigoted. I'll gladly share my deleted posts with anyone who wishes as this thread is being manicured to present a false narrative surrounding the entire reality of the situation.

If you'd care to send an NDA we'd be glad to hear what's really going on. Its all that most of us wanted to hear in the first place.

We'd like to put it out in the open, and it will in due time. We are not con-men, or a scam. Even our manufacturer's CEO (who must have some damn free time to spend) has gotten on this forum to try and prevent the inevitable. It was just an instance where several things happened in the wrong way in a continuous order. There is no one to blame other than ourselves and our choices which we have made until this point. We remove comments based on the content in those comments. Like employee names or customer opinions that may seem like spam, or opinions of those that have just tried to bring us down from day one like phineaus or sirminesalot (who most likely does not mine alot btw) for example.

All in all, if our clientele were smart, they'd try and help us succeed so we could generate new income, deliver promptly and take actions necessary to keep them at a level which is equal to or above satisfaction. Every comment with a negative context about AMT results in the possible lack of sale, or the inevitable closure of business due to mistakes made on both sides, on ours and our clients side as well. We have never been politically correct from a corporate standpoint, but it was also that aspect which attracted some of our clients to begin with. "who cares if they are assholes, they get the job done and I got my miner and it mines" which was said about us after delivering the bitfury miners when we started.

Yes we may have disorganized management. And we may have trusted the wrong people, or manufacturers or even consultants which led us down this path today. But it was our fault to do so.  And all in all, there isn't much we can do it about it now, so when your backed up in a corner by everyone around you, one either fight them off one by one until your out of the corner, or you collapse and take the beating and wallow in it for years to come. Which do you think we're going to do based on what you know about us.

And even when its out in the open, and everyone's knows exactly what happened which to an extent has been posted on this forum already we believe, by an eve's dropper of sorts in our office, those which were greedy from the start would never be satisfied anyway. So either we work to build our business to rectify all of our clients, or we give up and go bankrupt and then you'll all fee the same way hashfast's clients feel now. Or we'll be put in prison for fraud even though its clear that we partnered with a swiss company, who made a chip, who was late, and we hired subcontracted manufacturer who has admitted faults in their production and when we still sought alternative options for clients and were silenced by plaintiff's counsel for fear of loosing everything all together when trying to provide those options with customers. How is that going to impact plaintiff's counsel? And now, we can either deliver your original orders, or settle, or fight or give up.

There have been other characters (very few) in this industry that have been through the exact same thing even and even after it was done and finished and there were no legal obligations of repayment, they still made sure people were paid back or at least satisfied to some extent. Anyone remember Basic?

But its hard to do that when your name is ruined on google, and its even harder when some of your clients have nothing better to do then sit on a forum wait for an outcome which can only result in their further dissatisfaction. And when a hillbilly extortionist from Illinois still on a day to day basis makes sure things are optimized so carefully because hes being paid by a competitor. 

Think about it logically and put yourselves in our position and ask yourselves what you do. After you've already lost the race, would you give up and choose to not stay in an skeptical market which sells a machine that produces an electronic algorythm which doesn't exist and has no value other than that of which its given by the community around it. Think about it, and then ask us again why we need to delete posts and what our intentions are going forward.

I perfectly understand your situation of attempting to start up a business and not having things gone as planned and also not having the experience and competence to execute properly.

However, as I keep advising you... the crypto-currency mining business is too competitive for many to make a profit.

Furthermore, I have zero confidence that your team will be able to overcome their deficiencies.

The only logical course therefore is to call it quits and refund whatever you can to all the your customers.

[FrictionlessCoin]

We'd like to put it out in the open, and it will in due time. We are not con-men, or a scam. Even our manufacturer's CEO (who must have some damn free time to spend) has gotten on this forum to try and prevent the inevitable. It was just an instance where several things happened in the wrong way in a continuous order. There is no one to blame other than ourselves and our choices which we have made until this point. We remove comments based on the content in those comments. Like employee names or customer opinions that may seem like spam, or opinions of those that have just tried to bring us down from day one like phineaus or sirminesalot (who most likely does not mine alot btw) for example.

All in all, if our clientele were smart, they'd try and help us succeed so we could generate new income, deliver promptly and take actions necessary to keep them at a level which is equal to or above satisfaction. Every comment with a negative context about AMT results in the possible lack of sale, or the inevitable closure of business due to mistakes made on both sides, on ours and our clients side as well. We have never been politically correct from a corporate standpoint, but it was also that aspect which attracted some of our clients to begin with. "who cares if they are assholes, they get the job done and I got my miner and it mines" which was said about us after delivering the bitfury miners when we started.

Yes we may have disorganized management. And we may have trusted the wrong people, or manufacturers or even consultants which led us down this path today. But it was our fault to do so.  And all in all, there isn't much we can do it about it now, so when your backed up in a corner by everyone around you, one either fight them off one by one until your out of the corner, or you collapse and take the beating and wallow in it for years to come. Which do you think we're going to do based on what you know about us.

And even when its out in the open, and everyone's knows exactly what happened which to an extent has been posted on this forum already we believe, by an eve's dropper of sorts in our office, those which were greedy from the start would never be satisfied anyway. So either we work to build our business to rectify all of our clients, or we give up and go bankrupt and then you'll all fee the same way hashfast's clients feel now. Or we'll be put in prison for fraud even though its clear that we partnered with a swiss company, who made a chip, who was late, and we hired subcontracted manufacturer who has admitted faults in their production and when we still sought alternative options for clients and were silenced by plaintiff's counsel for fear of loosing everything all together when trying to provide those options to customers. How is that going to impact plaintiff's counsel? And now, we can either deliver your original orders, or settle, or fight or give up.

There have been other characters (very few) in this industry that have been through the exact same thing even and even after it was done and finished and there were no legal obligations of repayment, they still made sure people were paid back or at least satisfied to some extent. Anyone remember Basic?

But its hard to do that when your name is ruined on google, and its even harder when some of your clients have nothing better to do then sit on a forum waiting for an outcome which can only result in their further dissatisfaction. Like the people that go to a casino to loose, just to feel the rush. And when a hillbilly extortionist from Illinois still on a day to day basis makes sure things are optimized so carefully because hes being paid by a competitor. 

Think about it logically and put yourselves in our position and ask yourselves what you do. After you've already lost the race, would you give up and choose to not stay in an skeptical market which sells a machine that produces an electronic algorythm which doesn't exist and has no value other than that of which its given by the community around it. Think about it, and then ask us again why we need to delete posts and what our intentions are going forward.

To AMT's credit... at least they are aware that they will go to jail if they don't provide an amicable solution.

AMT clearly did not understand the magnitude of their undertaking and over promised and over guaranteed.  However, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.   Wire fraud laws in the U.S.A. have existed for decades to protect consumers from these kinds of failures.   In the U.S.A., you do not solicit payment for a product that you cannot deliver.  It does not matter if you *believed* that you could deliver. 

Failure to deliver requires that a customer receives a refund.  AMT has even failed to address a refund to anyone.

Yes, it is an unfortunate situation.  However, I've proposed several solutions to you that will make me whole (i.e. receiving just A1 chips).  Yet you have refused to accommodate this even this. 

 

[FrictionlessCoin]

I'm actually very surprised they didn't move to freeze their assets. Or maybe they tried to initially and someone showed leniency, maybe this will have to be answered for by the 10th.

Actually not even sure where that date came from. Its the 16th. You should be able to call chimcles and confirm. They told me generally middle of the month. The 16th seems more in line with that. Someone else might want to call and confirm that though.

ORDER THAT UPON CONSIDERATION OF DEFENDANTS' MOTION FOR EXTENSION OF TIME TO RESPOND TO COMPLAINT 9 , IT IS HEREBY ORDERED THAT THE MOTION IS GRANTED. IT IS FURTHER ORDERED THAT, ON OR BEFORE 6/16/2014, DEFENDANTS SHALL ANSWER OR OTHERWISE RESPOND TO PLAINTIFFS' COMPLAINT 1 AND PLAINTIFFS' MOTION TO CERTIFY CLASS 3 . SIGNED BY HONORABLE LEGROME D. DAVIS ON 4/30/14.4/30/14 ENTERED AND COPIES E-MAILED.(ti, ) (Entered: 04/30/2014)

Backgound:


Complaint 9:

9. Defendants’ improper and illegal business practices extend beyond just their
failure to deliver Bitcoin Miners that have been paid for in full by the Class. In reaction to
warranted consumer complaints, Defendants have demanded that members of the Class refrain
from posting and warning other potential customers about Defendants’ failures, and threatened to
withhold or further delay delivery of products or promised refunds to the members of the Class.
Moreover, all indications are that Defendants’ operations are a sham, and, at minimum,
Defendants lack the capability to meet the demand for the orders (and payments) they continue
to accept.

Complaint 1:

1. This is a class action lawsuit brought by Plaintiffs on behalf of themselves and a
class of persons who purchased “Bitcoin Miners” from Defendants. Defendants hold themselves
out to the public and Class as a manufacturer of Bitcoin Miners, which are machines that “mine”
bitcoins.

[Puppet]

There is no way AMT can make good on its promises and debt, I mean anyone enforcing the MPP alone is enough to bankrupt them. If you want to stop them from burning whatever money and assets they still have, /me thinks a hashfast style chapter 7 involuntary bankruptcy is the only way forward.

[FrictionlessCoin]

There is no way AMT can make good on its promises and debt, I mean anyone enforcing the MPP alone is enough to bankrupt them. If you want to stop them from burning whatever money and assets they still have, /me thinks a hashfast style chapter 7 involuntary bankruptcy is the only way forward.

Exactly.  That is what I keep telling folks.  The MPP will bankrupt any company.