Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Mini Rig Box

[Fefox]

any updates on bfl rigbox?

Well, when someone emailed asking if they could visit them with a $30,000 cashier's check they didn't reply.
So I guess it's not ready yet.

Have one on order in the first batch, last I heard they are expecting delivery in May.

[kjlimo]

any updates on bfl rigbox?

Well, when someone emailed asking if they could visit them with a $30,000 cashier's check they didn't reply.
So I guess it's not ready yet.

Have one on order in the first batch, last I heard they are expecting delivery in May.

And you shelled out 25-30k?  Wow, my wife would not let me do that... heh

[antirack]

I am trying to figure something out about the Rig Box. For people not following all the BFL threads, I had initially paid 20 singles and made a down payment for a Rig Box. But I cancelled my order a week or two ago, until I see more single units out there (3 rev ones, without extra fans and holes in the bottom) and at least one or two Rig Boxes in the wild.

I am sitting here in a friends office who is designing a new server room for their business. I've been joking he could house my mining rigs in there once he is done, which started a lengthy discussion about heat and A/C.

He has been reading this article:

Calculate heat dissipation for better server room design
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/get-it-done-calculate-heat-dissipation-for-better-server-room-design/5031678

Now here is what I am trying to figure out.  BFL says the Rig Box does 50.4 Giga Hash @ 2,500 Watt. They haven't said anything about the "required" or "recommended" temperature, but they said it's 22C with the singles (correct me if I am wrong). Now for the Rig Box I don't expect it to be different, on the contrary, 2500W is a lot of heat for a box with dimensions of 24.5x17.7x13.5cm. Honestly, I believe the case is just a preliminary picture, and they are probably using something completely different, but that's not of any concern in this post. The point is that the heat dissipation is 2,500 Watt. Probably more than that given their track record of getting it wrong.

Since we don't have heat dissipation specifications from BFL, we are going to use a formula provided by the above server room design article.

(2 500 * 0.80 * 1.73) / 0.293 = 11 809 BTU.

An air conditioner rated at 1 ton is roughly capable of handling 12,000 BTU (or 3517 watts!!) per hour of capacity, as specified by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

So does that mean you need a 1 ton (12,000 BTU) A/C for a Rig Box and pay an additional 3517 watts of electricity?

I can't imagine you'd need an A/C if you run a couple of GPU mining rigs with a total of 2,500 watt (to stay with the same number) and clearly, people run mining rigs in hotter climates (ie. Goat in Thailand). Why would you need one for servers? Or would it only matter if you have multiples of those (as it is usually the case for server rooms)? As you can see, I am clearly confused about his.

For reference, temperature averages here in my city:

Code:

Jan-Dec, Degree Centigrade
18.6 18.6 21.5 25.1 28.4 30.4 31.3 31.1 30.2 27.7 24.0 20.3

[SgtSpike]

I am trying to figure something out about the Rig Box. For people not following all the BFL threads, I had initially paid 20 singles and made a down payment for a Rig Box. But I cancelled my order a week or two ago, until I see more single units out there (3 rev ones, without extra fans and holes in the bottom) and at least one or two Rig Boxes in the wild.

I am sitting here in a friends office who is designing a new server room for their business. I've been joking he could house my mining rigs in there once he is done, which started a lengthy discussion about heat and A/C.

He has been reading this article:

Calculate heat dissipation for better server room design
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/get-it-done-calculate-heat-dissipation-for-better-server-room-design/5031678

Now here is what I am trying to figure out.  BFL says the Rig Box does 50.4 Giga Hash @ 2,500 Watt. They haven't said anything about the "required" or "recommended" temperature, but they said it's 22C with the singles (correct me if I am wrong). Now for the Rig Box I don't expect it to be different, on the contrary, 2500W is a lot of heat for a box with dimensions of 24.5x17.7x13.5cm. Honestly, I believe the case is just a preliminary picture, and they are probably using something completely different, but that's not of any concern in this post. The point is that the heat dissipation is 2,500 Watt. Probably more than that given their track record of getting it wrong.

Since we don't have heat dissipation specifications from BFL, we are going to use a formula provided by the above server room design article.

(2 500 * 0.80 * 1.73) / 0.293 = 11 809 BTU.

An air conditioner rated at 1 ton is roughly capable of handling 12,000 BTU (or 3517 watts!!) per hour of capacity, as specified by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

So does that mean you need a 1 ton (12,000 BTU) A/C for a Rig Box and pay an additional 3517 watts of electricity?

I can't imagine you'd need an A/C if you run a couple of GPU mining rigs with a total of 2,500 watt (to stay with the same number) and clearly, people run mining rigs in hotter climates (ie. Goat in Thailand). Why would you need one for servers? Or would it only matter if you have multiples of those (as it is usually the case for server rooms)? As you can see, I am clearly confused about his.

For reference, temperature averages here in my city:

Code:

Jan-Dec, Degree Centigrade
18.6 18.6 21.5 25.1 28.4 30.4 31.3 31.1 30.2 27.7 24.0 20.3

If you use 2500w in a small space, you most certainly will need 1 ton of A/C to keep it cool.  And 1 ton might not be enough come summertime!

But, remember an A/C is a heatpump, so it is more efficient than a resistive heating heat source.  Hard to explain.  But basically, a 1 ton A/C will NOT be anywhere close to 3500 watts.  I have a 10,000 BTU window A/C and it uses 1,020w.  And it's fairly old, so I am sure there's better and even more efficient units out there.  I bet you could get 12,000 BTU of cooling for under 1,000w now.

[antirack]

If you use 2500w in a small space, you most certainly will need 1 ton of A/C to keep it cool.  And 1 ton might not be enough come summertime!

But, remember an A/C is a heatpump, so it is more efficient than a resistive heating heat source.  Hard to explain.  But basically, a 1 ton A/C will NOT be anywhere close to 3500 watts.  I have a 10,000 BTU window A/C and it uses 1,020w.  And it's fairly old, so I am sure there's better and even more efficient units out there.  I bet you could get 12,000 BTU of cooling for under 1,000w now.

Interesting. I'll have to do some more research on all of this.

I also just realized the dimensions of the case they are using for the rig box contains an internal power supply. Try to imagine a 2500Watt power supply. It definitely couldn't fit in there. Even two of those 1500 Watt monsters from Newegg would not be enough (80% efficiency, so only 2400 Watt) and two would physically already be bigger than the "Rig Box".

[Brian DeLoach]

Interesting. I'll have to do some more research on all of this.

I also just realized the dimensions of the case they are using for the rig box contains an internal power supply. Try to imagine a 2500Watt power supply. It definitely couldn't fit in there. Even two of those 1500 Watt monsters from Newegg would not be enough (80% efficiency, so only 2400 Watt) and two would physically already be bigger than the "Rig Box".

The ratings on a power supply is the amount of watts it can deliver to the components, so two 1500 watt PSUs would be enough. Regarding heat, I ran 1,500 watts of GPUs and it easily overpowered the room they were in, even with the central A/C that was running around the clock. I agree with  SgtSpike, you will absolutely need A/C to cool down 2,500 watts.

[antirack]

Thanks for clarifying that about the PSU.

I just looked at some air con models available here. 12,000 BTU, split and window type, around 1.05 to 1.2x kWh. I hope that's max and not some sort of average.

[Brian DeLoach]

I just looked at some air con models available here. 12,000 BTU, split and window type, around 1.05 to 1.2x kWh. I hope that's max and not some sort of average.

Pay close attention to the EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio). For window types, most don't go above 10.8 (divide the BTUs by the ratio to get watts used). The highest I've seen is 11.7 EER (1025 watts)

[antirack]

I just looked at some air con models available here. 12,000 BTU, split and window type, around 1.05 to 1.2x kWh. I hope that's max and not some sort of average.

Pay close attention to the EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio). For window types, most don't go above 10.8 (divide the BTUs by the ratio to get watts used). The highest I've seen is 11.7 EER (1025 watts)

Hmm, something doesn't add up here. It's probably because the site I am using (HK's electricity provider) messed up the numbers.

https://www.clponline.com.hk/MyHome/EnergyEfficiencyIdeas/AdoptEEApp/EcoLivingRoom/ReverseCycleAirConditioner/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?model=CW-C1211VA
(click on English on the top in case you want to confirm my numbers)

Panasonic CW-C1211VA
Cooling 12100 BTU
Power Consumption 1.26 kW
EER 2.82 W/W

12100 / 2.82 = 4290

Same for a few other models on that site.

[SgtSpike]

I just looked at some air con models available here. 12,000 BTU, split and window type, around 1.05 to 1.2x kWh. I hope that's max and not some sort of average.

Pay close attention to the EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio). For window types, most don't go above 10.8 (divide the BTUs by the ratio to get watts used). The highest I've seen is 11.7 EER (1025 watts)

Hmm, something doesn't add up here. It's probably because the site I am using (HK's electricity provider) messed up the numbers.

https://www.clponline.com.hk/MyHome/EnergyEfficiencyIdeas/AdoptEEApp/EcoLivingRoom/ReverseCycleAirConditioner/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?model=CW-C1211VA
(click on English on the top in case you want to confirm my numbers)

Panasonic CW-C1211VA
Cooling 12100 BTU
Power Consumption 1.26 kW
EER 2.82 W/W

12100 / 2.82 = 4290

Same for a few other models on that site.

You forgot the last part of the calculation - divide by BTUs/kw.  4290 / 3413 = 1.26 kW.

[Brian DeLoach]

You forgot the last part of the calculation - divide by BTUs/kw.  4290 / 3413 = 1.26 kW.

Where are you getting those numbers in bold?

For this particular unit the EER would be 9.6 (12100 BTU / 1260 watts), so not the best out there. Not sure where they get 2.82.

[fizzisist]

You forgot the last part of the calculation - divide by BTUs/kw.  4290 / 3413 = 1.26 kW.

Where are you getting those numbers in bold?

For this particular unit the EER would be 9.6 (12100 BTU / 1260 watts), so not the best out there. Not sure where they get 2.82.

It's the mixture of units that's confusing. BTU is a measure of energy and watts is a measure of power. To make things worse, there's already an SI unit for energy, it's called a joule (and 1 W = 1 J/s). I think the EER is supposed to be ratio of power consumed to power "removed."

That's why they show EER = 2.82 W/W (there's no need for the W/W, because it's a dimensionless quantity).

SgtSpike's EER is actually BTU/h/W. To get that from 2.82 W/W:

2.82 W/W * 3.41214 BTU/h/W = 9.62 BTU/h/W

Oh yeah, and the AC does not do 12100 BTU of cooling, it does 12100 BTU/h.

Ok, annoying physicist fizzisist rant over.

[antirack]

*deleted* fizzisists post just explained the difference.

Now what is the difference between 12100 BTU of cooling and 12100 BTU/h ?  

I am simply trying to figure out what A/C I'd need for 1 Rig Box, 5 Rig Boxes or 10 Rig Boxes (<-- this means I am not serious)

[Brian DeLoach]

Now what is the difference between 12100 BTU of cooling and 12100 BTU/h ?  

I am simply trying to figure out what A/C I'd need for 1 Rig Box, 5 Rig Boxes or 10 Rig Boxes (<-- this means I am not serious)

I believe both of those are the same thing, but most leave out the per hour part. A good ratio I use is 3.4 BTUs per watt. The rig box would require at least 8500 BTUs. If your climate is particularly bad, go with a 10K unit. I have successfully cooled down 5,000 watts of electronics with an 18000 BTU A/C unit, with outside temperatures reaching 100 degrees.

[DeathAndTaxes]

An air conditioner rated at 1 ton is roughly capable of handling 12,000 BTU (or 3517 watts!!) per hour of capacity, as specified by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

So does that mean you need a 1 ton (12,000 BTU) A/C for a Rig Box and pay an additional 3517 watts of electricity?

Yes (needing one ton), no using (3517 watts).

First of all an AC just uses the wattage is needs.   If you are cooling a unit that produces 2500W of heat it only has to displace 2500W of heat not 3517.

Second AC unit tend to have 300% to 400% efficiency.  Meaning that for every 1 watt input they can remove 3 to 4 watts of heat.

So to cool a 2500W rig by AC will require ~600W to 800W more electricity.  Of course there is nothing "special" about the rigbox to cool any 2500W source (even a 2500W electrical space heater) will require the same amount of energy.

I can't imagine you'd need an A/C if you run a couple of GPU mining rigs with a total of 2,500 watt (to stay with the same number) and clearly, people run mining rigs in hotter climates (ie. Goat in Thailand). Why would you need one for servers? Or would it only matter if you have multiples of those (as it is usually the case for server rooms)? As you can see, I am clearly confused about his.

If you wanted to cool them by AC of course you would.  All the electricity in a rig (BFL single, BFL rig box, GPU rig, 200MH/s ztek board, etc) becomes heat. 

There are a variety of methods to remove that heat but if you use air-conditioning it is going to require ~ 1 ton per 2.5KW of electrical load.  Data centers tend to have unbelivably massive air conditioners.  Some have 100 tons+ of cooling capacity.[/quote]

[DeathAndTaxes]

Thanks for clarifying that about the PSU.

I just looked at some air con models available here. 12,000 BTU, split and window type, around 1.05 to 1.2x kWh. I hope that's max and not some sort of average.

No AC units are rated on their maximum cooling capacity.

[JWU42]

Rig box is months (12+ weeks) away based on PM from BFL 

[jamesg]

Rig box is months (12+ weeks) away based on PM from BFL 

I guess is depends on when you ordered.....

[fred0]

Rig box is months (12+ weeks) away based on PM from BFL 

Actually, since so much of the rig box is based off the Single, this makes sense.  I kind of assumed that the rig box would need a virtual architectural overhaul based on the experience gained on the Single.  BFL or BFL-Engineer please correct if not accurate, don't mean to spread FUD.

[Otoh]

watching thread O_O for May or June Rig Box deliveries