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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 1148984 times)
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April 18, 2016, 02:43:52 PM
 #6661

What wallet do you use for clam?  Can you have a bit coin and calm wallet on the same phone? I want to buy some clam to use on just dice
https://github.com/nochowderforyou/clams/releases/tag/v1.4.17 , you have no clam wallet for your phone, i made a crowdfunding about this but people never bothered.

How much is needed to build an Android wallet for clam? I would be willing to fund a significant part.

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April 18, 2016, 04:25:04 PM
 #6662

in this "Proof-Of-Working-Stake" the age and the weight (quantity of the output) are taken into consideration?

No.

Most PoS coins define the weight as "age * size", so the weight increases over time, meaning you can leave your wallet shut down and let the weight build up, then run it once per week to claim your rewards. But what are you being rewarded for? You aren't helping the network much by only running the wallet once per week.

CLAM defines the weight is just "size" (in CLAMs). So you don't build up weight by leaving your wallet closed. You are only rewarded while actually helping the network by trying to stake. This is the meaning of the word "working" in "proof of working stake". You only get rewarded for the time you spend working on securing the network by staking.

One output of 100 clams with 5 days age and another output of 10 clams with 3 days age, while they staking they have the same chance to find a block or not?

Yes, exactly the same.

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April 18, 2016, 05:53:53 PM
 #6663

in this "Proof-Of-Working-Stake" the age and the weight (quantity of the output) are taken into consideration?

No.

Most PoS coins define the weight as "age * size", so the weight increases over time, meaning you can leave your wallet shut down and let the weight build up, then run it once per week to claim your rewards. But what are you being rewarded for? You aren't helping the network much by only running the wallet once per week.

CLAM defines the weight is just "size" (in CLAMs). So you don't build up weight by leaving your wallet closed. You are only rewarded while actually helping the network by trying to stake. This is the meaning of the word "working" in "proof of working stake". You only get rewarded for the time you spend working on securing the network by staking.

One output of 100 clams with 5 days age and another output of 10 clams with 3 days age, while they staking they have the same chance to find a block or not?

Yes, exactly the same.


Thank you for the explanation!

______BITCOIN INVESTMENT SINCE APRIL 2015______
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April 19, 2016, 11:52:32 AM
 #6664

in this "Proof-Of-Working-Stake" the age and the weight (quantity of the output) are taken into consideration?

No.

Most PoS coins define the weight as "age * size", so the weight increases over time, meaning you can leave your wallet shut down and let the weight build up, then run it once per week to claim your rewards. But what are you being rewarded for? You aren't helping the network much by only running the wallet once per week.

CLAM defines the weight is just "size" (in CLAMs). So you don't build up weight by leaving your wallet closed. You are only rewarded while actually helping the network by trying to stake. This is the meaning of the word "working" in "proof of working stake". You only get rewarded for the time you spend working on securing the network by staking.

One output of 100 clams with 5 days age and another output of 10 clams with 3 days age, while they staking they have the same chance to find a block or not?

Yes, exactly the same.


Seems it's equally or more profitable to just invest with just-dice over time though. Since you get paid for stake, and site profit (if I am correct) with a 10% stake fee. Am I right?

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April 19, 2016, 02:48:47 PM
Last edit: April 19, 2016, 11:31:09 PM by andulolika
 #6665

in this "Proof-Of-Working-Stake" the age and the weight (quantity of the output) are taken into consideration?

No.

Most PoS coins define the weight as "age * size", so the weight increases over time, meaning you can leave your wallet shut down and let the weight build up, then run it once per week to claim your rewards. But what are you being rewarded for? You aren't helping the network much by only running the wallet once per week.

CLAM defines the weight is just "size" (in CLAMs). So you don't build up weight by leaving your wallet closed. You are only rewarded while actually helping the network by trying to stake. This is the meaning of the word "working" in "proof of working stake". You only get rewarded for the time you spend working on securing the network by staking.

One output of 100 clams with 5 days age and another output of 10 clams with 3 days age, while they staking they have the same chance to find a block or not?

Yes, exactly the same.


Seems it's equally or more profitable to just invest with just-dice over time though. Since you get paid for stake, and site profit (if I am correct) with a 10% stake fee. Am I right?
10% fee, on staking and 10% on bankrolling independently of eachother. Take count that if you lose bankrolling you would still pay the staking 10% (You only get commission on profits.)

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April 19, 2016, 03:16:22 PM
 #6666

in this "Proof-Of-Working-Stake" the age and the weight (quantity of the output) are taken into consideration?

No.

Most PoS coins define the weight as "age * size", so the weight increases over time, meaning you can leave your wallet shut down and let the weight build up, then run it once per week to claim your rewards. But what are you being rewarded for? You aren't helping the network much by only running the wallet once per week.

CLAM defines the weight is just "size" (in CLAMs). So you don't build up weight by leaving your wallet closed. You are only rewarded while actually helping the network by trying to stake. This is the meaning of the word "working" in "proof of working stake". You only get rewarded for the time you spend working on securing the network by staking.

One output of 100 clams with 5 days age and another output of 10 clams with 3 days age, while they staking they have the same chance to find a block or not?

Yes, exactly the same.


Thank you for the explanation!

One more question about the clams stake:
- the size of an output is linked with the network difficulty?
I mean if the difficulty rise if the size of an output is bigger it has more chances to find a block or not?

Thank you again

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April 19, 2016, 08:35:48 PM
 #6667

What wallet do you use for clam?  Can you have a bit coin and calm wallet on the same phone? I want to buy some clam to use on just dice
https://github.com/nochowderforyou/clams/releases/tag/v1.4.17 , you have no clam wallet for your phone, i made a crowdfunding about this but people never bothered.

How much is needed to build an Android wallet for clam? I would be willing to fund a significant part.
Hey, the cost was 1.00 btc and sebastianju would get a tip of .05, if things go well ill also apport some, i think that in this very moment there is no donation yet but with a bit of promotion it should fly.

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April 19, 2016, 10:31:26 PM
Last edit: April 19, 2016, 10:53:16 PM by AltcoinScamfinder
 #6668

What wallet do you use for clam?  Can you have a bit coin and calm wallet on the same phone? I want to buy some clam to use on just dice
https://github.com/nochowderforyou/clams/releases/tag/v1.4.17 , you have no clam wallet for your phone, i made a crowdfunding about this but people never bothered.

How much is needed to build an Android wallet for clam? I would be willing to fund a significant part.
Hey, the cost was 1.00 btc and sebastianju would get a tip of .05, if things go well ill also apport some, i think that in this very moment there is no donation yet but with a bit of promotion it should fly.

Start a thread, and i'll help promote it and chip in. We can get this done. Or, we can front the cost, and charge $5 for the wallet on the Android app store (google). Hell, we can just take CLAM donations from the community. $900 shouldn't be that hard to raise for a mobile wallet.

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April 20, 2016, 02:06:26 AM
 #6669

For anyone interested in mining Clamcoin check out CLD. The profit has been really good for the past 1 month

https://cldmine.com/?ref=xxx

This is very likely a scam.

They claim to be able to make around 0.8% per day staking CLAM:



That's not possible. The staking rate is around 0.1% per day.

And the FAQ?

Quote
What is CLD?

CLD is a system to generate cryptocurrency mining algorithms. The system automatically selects the most profitable algorithms for mining

What does that even mean, "generate algorithms and select the most profitable ones"? It's meaningless nonsense designed to trick you into giving them your money.

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April 20, 2016, 02:13:13 AM
 #6670

Seems it's equally or more profitable to just invest with just-dice over time though. Since you get paid for stake, and site profit (if I am correct) with a 10% stake fee. Am I right?

Whether it's more profitable to invest with just-dice depends on:

1) how lucky just-dice is - it's possible that the site gets unlucky and loses a lot of CLAMs to a winning player
2) how much you use the "offsite investment" feature at just-dice - it's a way of amplifying your potential gains and losses from players
3) how much betting volume there is on just-dice

I've not done the math to figure out where the optimal balance lies, but all the information you would need to do so is available on the site's stats tab.

One more question about the clams stake:
- the size of an output is linked with the network difficulty?
I mean if the difficulty rise if the size of an output is bigger it has more chances to find a block or not?

Thank you again

Yes, the chance of an output staking per unit time is directly proportional to its size in CLAMs, and inversely proportional to the network difficulty.

If the difficulty doubles and so does the size of your output, the two doublings cancel each other out and you end up with the same chance of staking that you started with.

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April 20, 2016, 03:20:41 AM
 #6671

For anyone interested in mining Clamcoin check out CLD. The profit has been really good for the past 1 month

https://cldmine.com/?ref=xxx

This is very likely a scam.

They claim to be able to make around 0.8% per day staking CLAM:



That's not possible. The staking rate is around 0.1% per day.

And the FAQ?

Quote
What is CLD?

CLD is a system to generate cryptocurrency mining algorithms. The system automatically selects the most profitable algorithms for mining

What does that even mean, "generate algorithms and select the most profitable ones"? It's meaningless nonsense designed to trick you into giving them your money.

Amazing that people even try these scams nowadays. Fine, I can see your magical cloud based hybrid ASIC fooling people that yon will earn more in POW coins, but claiming you can stake 8x faster in a POS algo is just kindergarten retard.

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April 20, 2016, 03:21:26 AM
 #6672

Seems it's equally or more profitable to just invest with just-dice over time though. Since you get paid for stake, and site profit (if I am correct) with a 10% stake fee. Am I right?

Whether it's more profitable to invest with just-dice depends on:

1) how lucky just-dice is - it's possible that the site gets unlucky and loses a lot of CLAMs to a winning player
2) how much you use the "offsite investment" feature at just-dice - it's a way of amplifying your potential gains and losses from players
3) how much betting volume there is on just-dice

I've not done the math to figure out where the optimal balance lies, but all the information you would need to do so is available on the site's stats tab.

One more question about the clams stake:
- the size of an output is linked with the network difficulty?
I mean if the difficulty rise if the size of an output is bigger it has more chances to find a block or not?

Thank you again

Yes, the chance of an output staking per unit time is directly proportional to its size in CLAMs, and inversely proportional to the network difficulty.

If the difficulty doubles and so does the size of your output, the two doublings cancel each other out and you end up with the same chance of staking that you started with.

How does the offsite feature affect the earnings? Isn't that just moving the coin to all-stake?

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April 20, 2016, 08:50:24 AM
 #6673

Seems it's equally or more profitable to just invest with just-dice over time though. Since you get paid for stake, and site profit (if I am correct) with a 10% stake fee. Am I right?

Whether it's more profitable to invest with just-dice depends on:

1) how lucky just-dice is - it's possible that the site gets unlucky and loses a lot of CLAMs to a winning player
2) how much you use the "offsite investment" feature at just-dice - it's a way of amplifying your potential gains and losses from players
3) how much betting volume there is on just-dice

I've not done the math to figure out where the optimal balance lies, but all the information you would need to do so is available on the site's stats tab.

One more question about the clams stake:
- the size of an output is linked with the network difficulty?
I mean if the difficulty rise if the size of an output is bigger it has more chances to find a block or not?

Thank you again

Yes, the chance of an output staking per unit time is directly proportional to its size in CLAMs, and inversely proportional to the network difficulty.

If the difficulty doubles and so does the size of your output, the two doublings cancel each other out and you end up with the same chance of staking that you started with.

How does the offsite feature affect the earnings? Isn't that just moving the coin to all-stake?
Offsite doesnt affect staking, it declares that you have up to 25x your funds outside the site that you willing to risk as bankrolling, so youll earn/lose 25 times your bankroll.

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April 20, 2016, 12:56:58 PM
 #6674

Seems it's equally or more profitable to just invest with just-dice over time though. Since you get paid for stake, and site profit (if I am correct) with a 10% stake fee. Am I right?

Whether it's more profitable to invest with just-dice depends on:

1) how lucky just-dice is - it's possible that the site gets unlucky and loses a lot of CLAMs to a winning player
2) how much you use the "offsite investment" feature at just-dice - it's a way of amplifying your potential gains and losses from players
3) how much betting volume there is on just-dice

I've not done the math to figure out where the optimal balance lies, but all the information you would need to do so is available on the site's stats tab.

One more question about the clams stake:
- the size of an output is linked with the network difficulty?
I mean if the difficulty rise if the size of an output is bigger it has more chances to find a block or not?

Thank you again

Yes, the chance of an output staking per unit time is directly proportional to its size in CLAMs, and inversely proportional to the network difficulty.

If the difficulty doubles and so does the size of your output, the two doublings cancel each other out and you end up with the same chance of staking that you started with.
Thank you very much again for the explanation!

Is there any math I can run to calculate the most efficient output for an N difficulty?

Thank you

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April 20, 2016, 07:41:46 PM
 #6675

Is there any math I can run to calculate the most efficient output for an N difficulty?

An output of size 2N will stake about as often as two outputs each of size N, and so in terms of how often your outputs stake it really doesn't matter what size they are.

The only important consideration is that when the output of size 2N stakes, the whole 2N+1 value sits idle for 500 blocks (8 hours) while it matures. When one of the two separate outputs of size N stakes, the other one continues trying to stake while the first one waits to mature. So splitting the output is more efficient for that reason only.

The more outputs you split your coins into, the less percentage of your coins are sitting idle waiting to mature at any time. So the "most efficient output" size is, I guess, 1 satoshi.

The problem with splitting that small is that it takes a finite amount of time to check each output for staking, and it costs a finite amount of transaction fee per output to spend it. So you need to balance splitting to minimize loss due to the 500 block maturity delay with loss due to transaction fees when you finally come to spend your outputs and CPU time burned to check for staking.

I find that making my outputs somewhere in the 20 to 40 CLAM range works fine.

If 1000 CLAMs stakes about once per day, then 3000 CLAMs stakes about once per 500 blocks, so if my outputs are 30 CLAMs each then about 1% of them are idle waiting to mature at any point in time.

Right now the Just-Dice staking wallet has 1,195,215 CLAMs. 1,179,875 are actively trying to stake and 15,340 are waiting to mature. That's around 1.28% of them that was sitting idle. Probably it's over 1% because on average they are over 30 CLAMs each. Counting the number of immature outputs of each size:

Quote
$ clamd listunspent 0 500 '[]' 0 | grep amount | awk '{print $3}' | tr -d , | cut -d. -f1 | sort | uniq -c
     23 20
      1 23
      1 28
      6 31
     31 32
     14 33
      2 34
    158 35
     65 36
     18 37
     74 38
     32 39

ie. there are 23 immature outputs of size 20 CLAM, etc.

Counting all outputs, whether mature or not we see that I have quite a range of sizes, from 17 CLAMs all the way up to 70 CLAMs:

Quote
$ clamd listunspent 0 9999999 '[]' 0 | grep amount | awk '{print $3}' | tr -d , | cut -d. -f1 | sort | uniq -c
  39822 17
   2856 18
     86 19
     26 20
     28 22
     60 23
     40 24
      5 25
      3 26
      1 27
     39 28
      6 29
      5 30
   2055 31
    892 32
    182 33
     31 34
   4418 35
   1331 36
    266 37
   1926 38
    476 39
     75 41
     49 42
      6 43
      2 44
      3 54
      1 57
     45 67
     10 68
    343 70

Those 70 CLAM outputs are probably too big to be efficient, but it's not clear whether it's better to manually split them (wasting 4 hours of staking time per transaction) or leave them staking and let them split themselves when they next stake.

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April 20, 2016, 09:05:35 PM
 #6676

Is there any math I can run to calculate the most efficient output for an N difficulty?

An output of size 2N will stake about as often as two outputs each of size N, and so in terms of how often your outputs stake it really doesn't matter what size they are.

The only important consideration is that when the output of size 2N stakes, the whole 2N+1 value sits idle for 500 blocks (8 hours) while it matures. When one of the two separate outputs of size N stakes, the other one continues trying to stake while the first one waits to mature. So splitting the output is more efficient for that reason only.

The more outputs you split your coins into, the less percentage of your coins are sitting idle waiting to mature at any time. So the "most efficient output" size is, I guess, 1 satoshi.

The problem with splitting that small is that it takes a finite amount of time to check each output for staking, and it costs a finite amount of transaction fee per output to spend it. So you need to balance splitting to minimize loss due to the 500 block maturity delay with loss due to transaction fees when you finally come to spend your outputs and CPU time burned to check for staking.

I find that making my outputs somewhere in the 20 to 40 CLAM range works fine.

If 1000 CLAMs stakes about once per day, then 3000 CLAMs stakes about once per 500 blocks, so if my outputs are 30 CLAMs each then about 1% of them are idle waiting to mature at any point in time.

Right now the Just-Dice staking wallet has 1,195,215 CLAMs. 1,179,875 are actively trying to stake and 15,340 are waiting to mature. That's around 1.28% of them that was sitting idle. Probably it's over 1% because on average they are over 30 CLAMs each. Counting the number of immature outputs of each size:

Quote
$ clamd listunspent 0 500 '[]' 0 | grep amount | awk '{print $3}' | tr -d , | cut -d. -f1 | sort | uniq -c
     23 20
      1 23
      1 28
      6 31
     31 32
     14 33
      2 34
    158 35
     65 36
     18 37
     74 38
     32 39

ie. there are 23 immature outputs of size 20 CLAM, etc.

Counting all outputs, whether mature or not we see that I have quite a range of sizes, from 17 CLAMs all the way up to 70 CLAMs:

Quote
$ clamd listunspent 0 9999999 '[]' 0 | grep amount | awk '{print $3}' | tr -d , | cut -d. -f1 | sort | uniq -c
  39822 17
   2856 18
     86 19
     26 20
     28 22
     60 23
     40 24
      5 25
      3 26
      1 27
     39 28
      6 29
      5 30
   2055 31
    892 32
    182 33
     31 34
   4418 35
   1331 36
    266 37
   1926 38
    476 39
     75 41
     49 42
      6 43
      2 44
      3 54
      1 57
     45 67
     10 68
    343 70

Those 70 CLAM outputs are probably too big to be efficient, but it's not clear whether it's better to manually split them (wasting 4 hours of staking time per transaction) or leave them staking and let them split themselves when they next stake.
Thank you for the clear explanation!
You and all the other nice guys of this project have been always polite and available to reply to all of my questions both here and on the IRC channel! I really hope to see the calm coin around here for long time!
About the 70 CLAM outputs I would wait them to mint a block and let them spilt "naturally"
Bye

______BITCOIN INVESTMENT SINCE APRIL 2015______
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April 21, 2016, 02:19:54 PM
 #6677

Ok, I am tired of Clam not having a mobile wallet so here goes. I have 500 CLAM for anyone that develops a working Android wallet with basic wallet functionality in a 'Clam design' (as per the desktop wallet). I am primarily looking for bids from Developers wanting to take on the project. Must have references from previous mobile wallet creation.

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April 21, 2016, 02:50:57 PM
 #6678

Ok, I am tired of Clam not having a mobile wallet so here goes. I have 500 CLAM for anyone that develops a working Android wallet with basic wallet functionality in a 'Clam design' (as per the desktop wallet). I am primarily looking for bids from Developers wanting to take on the project. Must have references from previous mobile wallet creation.

Is this really a 3-hour project?



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April 21, 2016, 03:25:33 PM
 #6679

how the fuk u mine this?>?
You dont mine it you stake it since its a POS coin.
To learn more about proof of stake check OP or FAQ of just-dice.com
This guy is making mobile staking wallets : 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1065204.0
The cost is two BTC so i tought maybe the community would do a crowdfunding.
This address is owned by SebastianJu that will act as escrow for the funds to be raised
18Me4dCRBPvHQnuqsQPFWzcGTnJsUHpa1E
Also he left this jd uid for clams 1418619.

Edit: Seems that price is reduced to 1 btc, i kinda missed it, total crowdfund should be of 1.025 btc so we can cover little for seba too.
^


Ok, I am tired of Clam not having a mobile wallet so here goes. I have 500 CLAM for anyone that develops a working Android wallet with basic wallet functionality in a 'Clam design' (as per the desktop wallet). I am primarily looking for bids from Developers wanting to take on the project. Must have references from previous mobile wallet creation.

🔥 🔥 🔥  Satochip - Secure the future  🔥 🔥 🔥
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April 21, 2016, 05:50:37 PM
 #6680

About the 70 CLAM outputs I would wait them to mint a block and let them spilt "naturally"

When the hot wallet needs refilling, I always refill it using the biggest outputs from the staking wallet - so that's probably what will happen to those 70's.

Here's the last refill transaction - you can see it spending a bunch of 70-ish outputs from the staking wallet, and making a bunch of 100's in the hot wallet.

I fill the hot wallet with 100's, because it's common for people to want to withdraw amounts in the 1000's, and so I want to have some decent sized inputs available to fund those withdrawals with.

Edit: forgot link: http://khashier.com/tx/52c06646063196877f6ee1de190a197795dd210a168d79b85b557d5eb94dbe80

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